CNN Insight

Cloning Primates

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JIM CLANCY, INSIGHT (voice-over): Sibling rivalry. She may be a lone survivor, but her sisters would have been exact replicas. The first primate to be cloned using a method that could have enormous implications and applications.

(on camera): Hello, and welcome to INSIGHT. I'm Jim Clancy, sitting in for Jonathan Mann.

The ethical debate about cloning is going to be going on for a long time. But meantime, scientists aren't wasting any time. The latest breakthrough is with monkeys, mankind's closest relative. On INSIGHT today -- cloning our cousins.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is in Oregon, where the research team responsible for the latest development is based. Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, there's a lot of excitement around this new development because previously it had been thought that it would be very difficult to clone a primate. But the researchers here in Oregon have proven that they can.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Meet Tetra, the cloned monkey. She may become as famous as Dolly, the cloned sheep. Tetra, who's four months old, is the first monkey cloned using a process called "embryo splitting." It potentially creates unlimited numbers of identical offspring.

DR. JOHN STRANDBERG, NATL. INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: We're very excited about this. This is another step in the progress that has been made.

COHEN: Excited because genetically identical monkeys are invaluable in research, and monkeys rarely have twins on their own.

GERALD SCHATTEN, OREGON PRIMATE RESEARCH CTR.: What we would say we are on the road towards is making identical twins, identical triplets and the identical quadruplets which could serve as the models for curing the life-threatening diseases that still plague us today.

(on camera): Tetra was conceived here at the Oregon Regional Primate Research Center. Now, there's a big difference between Tetra the monkey and Dolly the sheep. Dolly had only one parent and was a genetic clone of that parent. Tetra, on the other hand, was a clone of her sisters. Researchers took one embryo and split it into four clones.

(voice-over): Here's how scientists created Tetra. They obtained an egg from a female monkey and sperm from a male monkey, put them together and created an embryo. That embryo then divided into eight cells. Researchers split that embryo into four two-celled embryos. Those four embryos were then implanted into surrogate mothers. Only one embryo survived, and Tetra was born. Researchers say they're not sure why Tetra's sisters died in the womb, but Tetra, who's name means "one of four," is indistinguishable from her playmates.

SCHATTEN: Tetra is a frisky, energetic, healthy little girl, and she's growing up with a number of her buddies as a normal monkey.

COHEN: Theoretically, the technology that created Tetra could be applied to humans. But right now there's a ban on using federal funds to research human cloning. Scientists here say they have no interest in cloning people, just animals who can help find cures for human diseases.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Now, in May, the researchers here in Oregon are expecting the birth of two sets of identical twin monkeys cloned using the same embryo-splitting process. Jim?

CLANCY: Elizabeth, how excited is the scientific community there?

COHEN: Jim, the scientific community here is very excited because having identical sets of monkeys really is invaluable for research. There's just -- there's really no substitute. Monkeys that are not identical aren't as useful. Rats aren't as useful. Even other kinds of mammals aren't as useful. You just can't - you can't get better than this. It's really the gold standard.

CLANCY: Ethicists at the same time, people still wondering where is all of this going? The potential for cloning humans, it may have been banned by law in the United States as well as in Great Britain. But there is still that risk, and a lot of people wonder about this kind of an advancement.

COHEN: Right. The ban in the United States is on using federal funds, so you could actually use private funds to investigate human cloning, although a lot of scientists all over the world have promised that they wouldn't do that. Really, the fear has to do more with the Dolly kind of cloning, where you take an adult and you make a clone of that adult. So you could have some sort of mad scientist type decide that he wants to clone himself.

Now, with the Tetra the monkey technology, you can't do that. The clones are off -- are sisters or brothers of each other. You're not going from an adult to a baby. You're going from two parents to a bunch of unknowns. So it's a little bit less scary than the Dolly technology.

CLANCY: All right. Elizabeth Cohen, the latest there from near the researchers who have come up with Tetra.

Well, in a moment, we're going to hear from the lead researcher in the cloning of Tetra. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: The scientists in Oregon are making it clear that their research has very specific applications, that man can only benefit from the new development, that there is nothing to be afraid of. We spoke to the lead researcher on the project about the significance of the new findings.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GERALD SCHATTEN, OREGON PRIMATE RESEARCH CTR.: It's incremental. However, diseases like AIDS, like Alzheimer's, like heart attacks, cancers, Parkinson's are poised to be cured by the international effort that's breaking the genetic code of our diseases. And what our contribution here is in making the genetically identical monkey models to help verify whether new gene treatments, new cell treatments, all of these innovative therapies that are being perfected in mice would actually work in a primate before we go and test them on our loved ones.

CLANCY: So that is why cloning a monkey is so important?

SCHATTEN: Absolutely. Monkeys never have twins. And so, until now it's not been possible to have genetically identical monkeys, and we're all probably products of both the genes that we inherit from our parents and the environmental triggers. By making a set of identical twins or identical triplets or even identical quadruplets, we'll able, using fixed genetics, to know how the environment triggers diseases like cancer, diseases like Alzheimer's.

CLANCY: But one could argue that even identical twins are different in their subtle ways. Perhaps the genetic code looks identical, but they behave differently.

SCHATTEN: Absolutely, Jim. And not only are we shaped by our environment, but even the maternal environment, the mother's environment shapes us. So a paper came out recently looking at children, and it appeared as if their mother's hormone levels during pregnancy could influence their IQ by as much as 10 points.

So we think that the mother's environment could have lifelong consequences. We could envision a simple experiment where we have, say, three identical embryos going into three different mothers. One listens to Mozart; another, say, heavy metal; and the third CNN.

CLANCY: That will be interesting to see how that one comes out. Ultimately, doesn't all of this lead to human cloning? If this research is going to succeed, if we're talking about gene therapy, you have to clone some cells, don't you?

SCHATTEN: Well, the cloning of cells is very different than the cloning of people, and the science of human cloning has been discussed extensively over these last several years. And the incremental step that Dr. Chan (ph) in our laboratory has made is splitting the embryo of a monkey. But even splitting of embryos isn't new.

Mice, cows, lots of embryos have been split, and even human embryos have been split. There's a federal moratorium on human cloning, and there is a discussion, a national discussion and international discussion that's ongoing. Our work, however, is focused in making the model animals to bring the cures for the diseases that still plague us today.

We would love it if the children of tomorrow can talk about AIDS and cancers and heart attacks and strokes in the same category that they speak about polio, anthrax, smallpox, diseases that used to plague us but don't. We think all these diseases could be moved soon to the list of cured diseases.

CLANCY: But how do you actually do that? How is it that gene therapy specifically could attack something like heart disease?

SCHATTEN: Gene therapy and cell therapy have these potentials. The cells from embryos could be put into hearts that have been damaged from attacks and repair them. The cells from embryos could be used to treat my sister, who's a diabetic, and not treat her with a daily injection of insulin but cure her diabetes.

These cells could restore memory to Alzheimer's patients. These cells could repair the spinal cords of quadriplegics. But we don't yet know whether the cells that worked so well in genetically identical mice will work in people, and we believe strongly that before we test things on people, especially sick people, we need an animal that's a closer relative so that we can bridge that gap between mice and our loved ones.

CLANCY: A lot of people were looking at the Human Genome Project, they were looking at the computer modeling that was going on there, hoping that in one way or another that would be able to curtail the number of animal experiments that are carried out. And of course, your research right now would appear to be leading toward more, not less animal research in the short term.

SCHATTEN: I disagree, Jim.

CLANCY: OK.

SCHATTEN: Our work, I think, will result in fewer animals because the genetic variation in all the animals that are currently studied is evened out. So we believe actually that fewer animals will be used for better quality research that will move discoveries from a laboratory bench to a patient's bedside that much faster.

In actual fact, we believe that we will end up and others will end up using far fewer animals because a huge variable, the genetic variable, will be eliminated.

CLANCY: One serious question, and it's back on the human cloning track, I suppose, is as you talk about withdrawing cells to cure cancer, to cure heart disease, to Parkinson's, some other things with gene therapy, you're talking about taking those from an embryo. Some of the research that I've read, this would include perhaps we clone our selves so we have that embryo there that somehow could be used as a source of cells for us for the rest of our lives.

But doesn't that bring up the question of human life, using another human life to support our own?

SCHATTEN: These bioethical questions are deep, indeed, and we are mindful of them, and we speak with experts to guide where we're going. However, we're working with the animal model that is the closest to human so that we can help provide some scientific facts so that the conversation on where these research topics should go can be shaped in a credible way and not in a way that a law allows a lot of speculations.

In fact, the president's bioethical commission, which issued that moratorium on human cloning, also called for more research on relevant animal models as well as communication with the general public so that the conversation can be richer and more focused.

CLANCY: Dr. Gerald Schatten, our thanks to you for being with us on INSIGHT.

SCHATTEN: Thank you for your interest.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: We've got to take another short break. But in a moment, we'll look at the wide array of clone research and ask whether it can be contained.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CLANCY: Welcome back to INSIGHT. Our topic is, of course, cloning. And there are several different kinds of cloning, variations on the single theme.

Most of the science is impressive, all of it quite confusing to the layman. Here's CNN medical correspondent, Dr. Steve Salvatore, on cloning's short history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. STEVE SALVATORE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Remember Dolly? Dr. Ian Wilmut introduced the world's first cloned mammal in February of 1997. Dolly was developed from an adult animal cell using a technique called somatic cell nuclear transfer. It was a feat many believed was impossible, but once proven, spurred fear, debate and new legislation around the world. President Clinton issued a moratorium banning the use of federal dollars for any project relating to human cloning and asked his national bioethics advisory board to look into the legal and ethical issues.

Later that year came Gene, a cloned bull. Gene started life as a collection of very basic fetal cells. They were grown until ready to be put inside a specially prepared cow's egg. This egg, with completely new genetic content, was implanted into a cow. Months later, Gene was born.

In January of 1998, a scientist in Chicago caused an uproar when he announced plans to attempt human cloning. Dr. Richard Seed said he planned to use the same kind of technology used to produce Dolly.

DR. RICHARD SEED: When I was 7 years old, I was brilliant and crazy. I don't mind being called crazy.

SALVATORE: The White House has asked for government and private industry to comply with the ban on human cloning, and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration announced its authority to regulate human cloning, making it against federal law to try to clone a human using the cell transfer method that yielded Dolly.

Still, no one can be sure that human cloning activity isn't under way in the private sector. Dr. Richard Seed, in fact, has declared he will attempt human cloning in the future.

Cloning experiments using frogs and tadpoles date back to the 1970s. The late '90s saw the progression to mammals, including cloned calves George and Charlie, cloned sheep Molly and Polly and the cloning of multiple generations of mice.

(on camera): Researchers hope to use cloning as a faster, more efficient way to study drugs and fight diseases. While they admit there's tremendous potential for medical advances using this technology, they say that value has to be weighed against the fears of those who say cloning will bring disastrous results.

Dr. Steve Salvatore, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLANCY: Well, joining us now to talk about some of the different types of cloning is Dr. Robin Lovell-Badge. He's an embryologist and geneticist at the Medical Research Council in Britain. Why clone a cow and a sheep and now clone a monkey? Primate cloning very different from those two, I would assume?

ROBIN LOVELL-BADGE, EMBRYOLOGIST: OK. In the particular case of the monkey, the whole idea is to be able to have genetically identical animals to answer questions about nature versus nurture or the genetics versus the environment. And I think Gerry (ph) Schatten is quite right in that this is an important thing to look at.

In the terms of cloning Dolly, for example, the whole emphasis behind that was not particularly to make identical sheep but as a way of being able to start off with a particular cell and make genetic changes in that cell and then take that cell and produce a valuable animal from that cell.

So at Roslin, where -- sorry?

CLANCY: So...

LOVELL-BADGE: At Roslin, where they made...

CLANCY: Go ahead.

LOVELL-BADGE: At Roslin, where they made Dolly, one of their goals of a company closely associated with that work, PPL (ph), is to be able to produce proteins which are very potentially valuable for human therapies, and they could do this much more efficiently and much more easily by using the technique called gene targeting, where you change a particular gene within a cell.

And essentially the only way you can get from a cell to a sheep is by a cloning strategy, and that's why they used cloning in that particular case.

CLANCY: But the significance of this little rhesus monkey named Tetra in specifics of human disease, the similarity of a primate to a human, that's the advantage?

LOVELL-BADGE: That's the advantage. Well, that's, as you may know, there are many studies being done in human populations where they're trying to understand whether it's the genetics which is important of an individual or the environment. So how that individual was brought up. And so, many people resort to taking naturally occurring twins and whether they've been brought up together or separated at birth and brought up in different environments.

And you can answer many questions about nature versus nurture in that way. So what Gerry Schatten wants to do is develop an animal model which is close to humans to be able to do the same sorts of studies.

CLANCY: What specific...

LOVELL-BADGE: Now, of course, we can...

CLANCY: What specific diseases are we talking about when you go -- when you say that you want to implement gene therapy or cell therapy, what is the range of diseases we're talking about?

LOVELL-BADGE: In -- OK, this is in some ways a different issue in my mind to the work that we're talking about with Tetra. But if you want to -- if you're talking about gene therapy or cell therapy, and let's stick with cell therapy because I think this is really where the technology is closest to. That is where, for example, you have a patient who is -- has Parkinson's disease. You could cure that patient by transplanting the right cell type into the relevant place in the brain.

Or a patient with heart disease, you may be able to cure that patient from heart disease by transplanting heart muscle cells into the right part of the heart. And there's a very long list of diseases that you can treat by cell therapy of that sort.

The one strong purpose of trying to do cloning research and relating it humans is not to reproduce new humans, but to make embryos and then from those very early embryos is to make a cell type called an embryonic stem cell. These are very important cells. They have the ability to give rise to any cell type in the body, in the adult body.

We don't understand yet how to do that, how to make any particular cell type. But we understand how to make a few of them. So and these are studies done in the mouse. So we know in the mouse using embryo stem cells in the mouse that we can make, direct these to make muscle or we can direct them to make nerve cells, for example.

And then, in theory, you can take these nerve cells and then you could reimplant them to cure, say, defects like Parkinson's or spinal cord abnormalities or spinal cord problems. For example, if you have an accident and you have broken spinal cord. You need to repair it. It would be wonderful to be able to transplant neurons and supporting cells to try and repair that spinal cord injury.

In theory...

CLANCY: Now, we've come full circle...

LOVELL-BADGE: Yes.

CLANCY: We've come full circle. You're talking about embryos again, and I just want to ask you. How old, if you were to use human stem cells that you got from an embryo, how old would that embryo be?

LOVELL-BADGE: The embryo is going to be just a few days old. It will not even have implanted in the uterus. It will be just a small ball of cells, and you can hardly see with the naked eye. It doesn't look like an embryo, it's just a ball of cells.

CLANCY: That, of course, going to be a major issue, one of the ethical questions that lies ahead. But people are also going to have to measure medical science's advances versus some of these things -- the advantages, the disadvantages, the hopes versus the fears, how far away are we in years from the first of this technology being used?

LOVELL-BADGE: We're a long way. My personal view is that we're a long way off because there are so many problems to sort out. So the animal model which we are most advanced with and which we've been working with for 20 years is the mouse, where we've had these embryo stem cells for, say, a full 20 years, and we're only just beginning to understand how to direct them in -- along different directions, make different cell types from them and how to reintroduce them back into an animal to cure a disease model in those mice.

There are many problems to sort out with the mouse models. You then might want to apply it to a primate model, as Gerry Schatten argues, and that's going to take several years to be able to get that model efficient enough to be able to do anything sensible with.

And then, with humans, you have another whole set of problems that you also have to factor in. So I'm very reluctant to give time in years. But it's certainly not within the next five or probably even 10 years. But it would be hopefully not so long after that.

CLANCY: How concerned are you and your colleagues not about the ethical questions - of course, they are a concern - but the real medical questions. We're going into an area here that could be very dangerous. Some developments could, indeed, cause disastrous results, couldn't they?

LOVELL-BADGE: Well, that's why everything has to be really carefully controlled. I mean, it has to be control at the level of the science and how the experiments are done, and it has to be controlled in terms of the ethics. And we need to have very good debate between the scientists and the public to make sure that people understand what the intentions are of the scientists and what the goals are, the limitations and - but also the advantages of these techniques.

A lot of us are very excited about the possibility of using stem cell therapy to cure a whole range of diseases which, up until now, have been intractable or very, very difficult to do anything with.

CLANCY: Robin Lovell-Badge, our thanks to you for being with us. We're going to have to stop it there. We appreciate you being with us.

That has to be it for this edition of INSIGHT. I'm Jim Clancy. But stay tuned. The news continues right here in a moment.

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