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Sep-11-08
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| Geronimo: Or he might alter his tournament style. I think we spectators tend naturally to emphasise the greats' pure chess skills over their tournament strategies. Kramnik knows what he's doing - even when he plays bloodless draws. This is also why youth tends under certain conditions to lose to experience. I think Ivanchuk (I admit I'm a fan and potentially biased) played to draw the first week in full knowledge that he could get back into the fight. Thanks, for your suggestions. And great links <suenteus po 147>. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Whitehat1963: <Or he might alter his tournament style.> Exactly. Either way, better for the fans. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| vanytchouck: <suenteus po 147>
Linares 1993, but surprisingly no Linares 1994? |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Whitehat1963: <Geronimo> I just looked at Corus 2006, in which Topalov and Anand tied for first, both with 9 points. With my system, Anand would have won, 9.0 to 8.9. The difference? Anand had three wins with black and three with white. Topalov had four wins with white and two wins with black. |
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Sep-11-08
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| suenteus po 147: <vanytchouck> Linares 1994 is really regarded more as one of the greatest tournament performances of all time by a single player. It is up high on the list of strongest tournaments, but usually in the top 10-20 range. I've never seen a list claiming it as the strongest ever. |
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Sep-11-08
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| Geronimo: Very interesting. Might be tough to convince players to adopt this system, but it would lead to different playing strategies. Thanks for the conversation and good night from Nairobi. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Bobsterman3000: <Geronimo: "or that (from the alternative personal preference) Capa - if he had access to modern training - could have beat Kramnik. The whole thing is just silly."> Do you know anything about Capablanca?
He didn't train hard even by the standards of his own contemporaries... |
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Sep-11-08
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| Geronimo: Oooh, I said goodnight, but I can't resist the post! I love Capablanca, and have spent much time pouring over his games. He claimed to have never studied opening theory - and perhaps that's why his contribution to opening theory is so absolutely essential to modern chess. I chose these two examples to point out the absurdity of trans-historical comparisons, not because I was making a point about one or the other. I think it funny when people go blind getting fanatical defending or attacking Kramnik (as they do about Fischer) or any other player. Take a look at my profile and you'll see Capa, Blackburne and Tal as my major influences. But I don't want to engage in a discussion about personal preferences, which would contradict my main point. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| 14 Dog Knight: Capablanca probably wouldn't be champion today...he'd be too busy chasing after Alexandra Kosteniuk |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Whitehat1963: <14 Dog Knight> Truer words have never been spoken. Then again, if he had Kosteniuk (and others) and still managed to be the champion, how much more respect would we have for the man? |
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Sep-11-08 |
| borenslaw: What about only wins score a point. Loses and draws: no points |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Whitehat1963: Also interesting. I'd like to see that method's effect on four or five tournaments as well. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| PinkPanther: I've never gotten what was so special about Kosteniuk. To me, she looks like a Russian peasant. Rather homely. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| borenslaw: In certain sports I believe you can draw some historical comparisons; in chess despite the recording of games I think it is extremely difficult.Computers, databases, the access to training tools, the number of players, make it very difficult to compare eras.Capa and Alekhine dominated their era; they probably would be great today: but, would they dominate?We will never know but I doubt it. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| vanytchouck: I've found a funny kind of analogy between the scoring system and the different geometries (nothing scientific just fun) : For the scoring system, the axiom wich could be associated with the "the sum of the angles of a triangle = 180°" axiom is "1 win + 1 loss = 2 draws". It can also be seen as the scoring system version of dx²+d y² = dy² So the 1-1/2-0 is our euclidian system, notice that they both came as the most natural and was seen as the only valuable. The elliptic one would be the scoring wich use the "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" axiom as for example, 3-2-0 system (you love solidity, and any lost is seen as a shameful failure). And the hyperbolic one would be the one wich use the "2 draws > 1 win + 1 loss" (our "beloved" 3-1-0 ;-)). But there is a point wich i would be more serious:
I don't think it's relevant to say "the 3-1-0 system is bad because with this system, +4;=1;-5 is better than +1;=9". In fact, "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" and "+4;=1;-5 is better than +1;=9" are "equivalent" (the number of losses allowed has to be define). It's just like saying "this geometry sucks because the pythagorean theorem does not hold in it!". So i think that the only debate is wether the "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" axiom is better than the "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" one or than the "1 win + 1 loss = 2 draws". And i maintain that this is only axioms as nobody has ever proved (specially on this site) that "1 win + 1 loss = 2 draws". |
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Sep-11-08 |
| ILikeFruits: what...
me...
worry...
geronimo... |
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Sep-11-08 |
| drnooo: a draw is a draw is a , right, draw. It is the logical outcome of a well played game. Especially when the mistakes of both sides cancel each other out. If you dont like draws let the g m s play computers. Then you will see some nice slaughters, and and hand wringing and bloody losses. But so long as humans play each other, let the draws continue in the good old fashioned scoring system: any other is just hoking up the game. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| drnooo: If you want an incentive for wins, if there is a tie for first let the one with the most wins get an extra thousand or so for the most of them. But you don't need to resort to some nutty scoring system: its called extra cash. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Whitehat1963: <drnooo> I'm curious, based on your statement that "a draw is a draw is a ...", what you think of these "well-played" games: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches... |
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Sep-11-08 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <Landzhev
1. The standings kind of look the same as they would have been if the traditional scoring system was used.> True, as of now. However, it could be different, and if we continue these tournamnets, inevitably we will get a tournament wherein the 3 - 1 - 0 scoring will yield a standing different than the traditional one. If the 3 - 1 - 0 scoring is used to determine the apportioning of prize money in traditional scoring system context, then I have no objection. <2. Ivanchuk gets in to time trouble in every game and plays some of the best chess here. Just goes to show that there are more important things to be considered here, such as consistency, form, preparation etc...> Right again. However, it's not true with all players. We have already seen Anand playing weakly around move 40 and after. What I mean is that in general, with the given time control and no increment after move 40, players would tend to commit more errors around move 40 and after. Most of the arguments have already been posted in this corner. I think you are actually trying to convince me to change my mind! (",) |
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Sep-11-08 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <suenteus po 147: There are several tournaments that, for one reason or another, are listed as "the strongest of all time." Here are a few:> Game Collection: Vienna 1882 Game Collection: Linares 1993 Game Collection: WCC Index [Zurich 1953]
Game Collection: Karlsbad 1929 Game Collection: San Sebastian 1911 Game Collection: Las Palmas 1996 Also
Game Collection: St. Petersburg 1895-96 Game Collection: St Petersburg 1914 Note that St Petersburg 1914 actually consisted of two tournaments, with a first qualifying stage and a finals stage. Both stages were incredibly strong. If you got into the final stage, you would have the pleasure of playing Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Tarrasch, and Marshall two times each in a double round robin. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <14 Dog Knight: Capablanca probably wouldn't be champion today...he'd be too busy chasing after Alexandra Kosteniuk> Nice joke. Women were Capa's weakness. Capa was also women's weakness. He was like the Rudolf Valentino of chess. My uncle who was a a child in the 30s still remembers stories about Capa, and this chess genius was also monstrously handsome and attractive. When he walked into a roomful of people, everyone would soon be looking at him, even not knowing him. Ladies would swoon over him and flocked to see him playing in tournaments. I have stated this belief already. Capablanca in 1919 was playing nearly errorless chess (except for one gross oversight, in a game he still won). He won all of his classical games except for one. He had not yet tasted what it felt like to be World Champion and was hungrily trying to win every game he ever played to prove to the world he deserved a Title shot. This 1919 Capa updated in opening theory IMO would have beaten just about anybody in a match, with the possible exception of the 1971 version of Fischer. A chess genius who could give all his colleagues 1 minute to 5 odds in blitz games and still crush them all, all the time; who played nearly errorless computer-like chess; and hungry for the Title? That was Capablanca in 1919, an invincible chess machine. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| Whitehat1963: <1 minute to 5 odds in blitz games and still crush them all> I think this was actually money odds: you win $5, I win $1. Nowhere did he specifically mention time odds. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| visayanbraindoctor: <Whitehat1963: <1 minute to 5 odds in blitz games and still crush them all> I think this was actually money odds: you win $5, I win $1. Nowhere did he specifically mention time odds.> Thanks for the correction. In any case, Capa all throughout his career was the only player who ALWAYS won all blitz and rapid competitions he entered. Blitz is blitz, but if you play a thousand blitz games, and still win most of them convincingly, the statistics of such s feat would show that you are indeed a very strong chess player. Did Capa ever lose a single blitz game in his life anyway? Moreover, in blitz opening prep practically becomes useless. The players play largely according to their natural abilities. Even a Capa who was not updated in opening theory but instantaneously saw most possibilities even in complex middlegames and could spot a winning maneuver in almost any endgame where one existed would probably smash everyone in a blitz tournament today. I have read Edward Lasker saying that when he and others sat down to play Capa in his prime, there already was the feeling they would lose! They must have felt like they were playing Rybka or Fritz. |
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Sep-11-08 |
| blueofnoon: Please do not compare Kramnik with Karpov who, has won more than 160 major tournaments and should be considered as strong candidate for the best tournament player ever. |
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