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Jul-29-08
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| Tessie Tura: <I've heard that Botvinnik was to blame for the limit on participants from one country, but of course he lost the title in 1963. Unfortunately, policies (especially bad ones) often outlive their rationales.> I think Bronstein mentioned that in <The Sorcerer's Apprentice>. The "rationale" was that Botvinnik would face fewer of the toughest players that way. I don't know if the story is true or not. (I think <Petrosianic> posted on this subject quite recently, but can't remember on which page.) |
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Jul-29-08
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| Hesam7: <Riverbeast: But Fischer was a poor loser! And all the Russians who backed up his accusations were lying!> I do not think that the Russians were lying. Fischer's complaint was legitimate but that does not explain his poor results, as Karpov says, people do not win tournaments by drawing. I think Fischer was simply not in the same class as the top trio. Here are the results: Petrosian 2.5 - 1.5 Fischer
Geller 2.5 - 1.5 Fischer
Keres 2.0 - 2.0 Fischer
And his results could have been much worse, in the 4th round robin Fischer had lost positions against Geller and Petrosian (Fischer vs Petrosian, 1962, Fischer vs Geller, 1962) but managed to beat Geller and draw Petrosian. |
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Jul-29-08 |
| RookFile: I think 'poor results' is a little over the top. Fischer scored 8 wins and 7 losses against the world's best, with a multitude of draws, at the age of 19. He finished ahead of Korchnoi, Tal, Benko, and Filip. That's not poor. |
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Jul-29-08
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| Hesam7: <RookFile: I think 'poor results' is a little over the top. Fischer scored 8 wins and 7 losses against the world's best, with a multitude of draws, at the age of 19. He finished ahead of Korchnoi, Tal, Benko, and Filip. That's not poor.> For somebody who claimed that he was the true challenger and the best player around that was poor. Also I would not count Tal (during that period) or Filip (Fischer scored 3 of his 8 wins against these two) among "the world's best". It was a shame that the number of Soviet players was restricted just imagine the tournament with Spassky instead of Filip! And for the record Fischer also lost his mini-match to Korchnoi. |
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Jul-29-08
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| Hesam7: <RookFile> to add insult to the injury Fischer was also lost (or was very close to losing) in his only win against Korchnoi: Korchnoi vs Fischer, 1962 (31.Qb2+ gives White a big advantage). |
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Jul-29-08
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| Hesam7: <RookFile> this is another game from Curacao where Fischer was lost yet came back to win: Fischer vs Benko, 1962. |
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Jul-30-08 |
| RookFile: It's kind of silly to talk about what could have been, instead of what the actual game results were. Tal would say in the year that he became world champion that he had a lost postion in a multitude of games that he went onto win. According to your logic, you should go out and find games that Fischer had a clear advantage in and didn't convert, and draws that he didn't hold, to give the full picture. Whether it's Lasker, Tal, Fischer, or anybody else, the only thing that matters at the the end of the day is what result you're writing into the crosstable. |
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Jul-30-08
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| Hesam7: <RookFile> my point is that the number of losing positions you get in a tournament reflects on the quality of your play. In that respect having so many lost positions shows that Fischer's play was poor. Compare this to Petrosian who in the same tournament did not lose a single game and only had problems in one game against Benko. |
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Jul-30-08 |
| Petrosianic: <my point is that the number of losing positions you get in a tournament reflects on the quality of your play. In that respect having so many lost positions shows that Fischer's play was poor.> Fischer lost 7 games in this tournament. How many lost positions did he get into but manage to save? At least three: the game with Benko, the second cycle game with Korchnoi, and the 4th cycle game with Geller. Nothing else leaps immediately to mind (his 4th cycle games with Keres and Petrosian were very difficult, but I'm not sure if he was provably lost in either one). Even so, 10 lost positions in 27 rounds is an awful lot to base an "I shoulda won" campaign around. Anybody who finds that performance comparable to Fischer 1972 isn't looking very hard. His bad form continued into his next event, the Varna Olympiad, where he only scored 50% (+3-3=5) in the Finals. |
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Jul-30-08 |
| euripides: Actually, 1972 was tougher for him than this suggests. He lost two (not including the default). Some annotators have also thought he was worse or at least in considerable danger in the 4th (worse throughout the middlegame), 7th (he was mostly better but both players missed a chance for Spassky late in the game), 9th (where Spassky ducked the thematic d5), 10th (great game but I think Spassky missed a chance to simplify with advantage), 14th (a clear pawn down before Spassky's blunder), 15th (a pawn down with debatable compensation), 17th (Spassky apparently accidentally allowed a repetition) and 18th games (after pressing too hard Fischer was in real danger though maybe never lost). He also faced down potentially ferocious attacks in the 13th and 19th. No wonder he said Spassky was the toughest opponent he faced in that cycle. But of course there is a big, big difference between being worse at some stage and losing. Fischer in 1972 was very hard to put away. |
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Jul-30-08 |
| Petrosianic: <17th (Spassky apparently accidentally allowed a repetition)> I don't think there was anything accidental about it. He couldn't find anything, and so allowed a repetition rather than lower himself to offer a draw. There were several creative drawing methods in that match. Which was the game (Game 20? maybe) where Fischer asked the referee to check for repetition (in a position where there clearly was none), and while he was doing that, Spassky signed the scoresheets? I think I've heard (not 100% positive about that) that Fischer never offered a draw throughout the match. |
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Jul-30-08 |
| euripides: <Pet> yes, I think game 20 was the spurious claim - I think there had been a triple repetition but with different sides to move. |
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Aug-02-08 |
| arsen387: QOTD
<He had a funny habit: while his opponent was pondering a move, he would now and then brush off specks of dust, real or imaginary, from the opponent's side of the chessboard. Eventually, Petrosian broke him of the habit by giving him a rap on the fingers. Alexander Koblents >
Interesting ho was that 'He'? |
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Aug-04-08 |
| HannibalSchlecter: That 'He' was the great Bobby Fischer.
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Aug-05-08 |
| arsen387: <HannibalSchlecter: That 'He' was the great Bobby Fischer> thanks for the info. Irritating habit, I think :) |
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Aug-31-08 |
| myschkin: . . .
"The Fabulous 70s: 3 Chess People and a Beautiful Woman … Plus, Petrosian Tidbits" http://nezhmet.wordpress.com/2008/0... (by Mark Ginsburg) |
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Sep-02-08 |
| arsen387: <myschkin> thanks for an interesting link. 3 Chess People and a Beautiful Woman LOL! Maybe it's a little odd but I decided to paste the "Tigran Petrosian tidbits" part on his page, i.e. here <Tigran Petrosian Tidbits
1.He was born in Tbilisi, Georgia, but was 100% Armenian. 2.Tigran's dad was a refugee from Turkey.
3.Tigran left Georgia when he was 17.
4.Tigran journeyed 160 miles to Yerevan, Armenia.
5.Before she got married to Tigran, Rona was an English teacher. 6.Tigran had two sons, Mikhail and Vartan.
7.Petrosian also enjoyed checkers, cards, and an Armenian backgammon variant called Nardy. He also played ping ping and billiards. 8.He liked to watch ice hockey and soccer.
9.He was a supporter of club Spartak and played first board for Spartak chess team. 10.His main hobby was philately (stamp collecting) MG Note: just as it
is Anatoly Karpov's! He liked to collect art stamps and chess stamps. 11.He used to attend the opera regularly.
12.He was awarded the honorary Master of Sport title [MG: relatively late?!] in 1960. 13.He was chief editor of '64' chess magazine when this interview was conducted in 1976. 14.If he won a prize abroad, he could keep some of it and give some of it back to the state (the USSR). 15.He was impressed by young Seirawan at Lone Pine 1976. Apparently young Yasser managed to beat Tigran in a friendly skittles game (one of several they played) although Tigran pointed out "I was not serious, I was having fun. "MG Note: You wouldn't see Fischer very light-hearted after a skittles loss. 16.He reiterates his belief that ".. in chess there is nothing accidental. I believe only in logical, correct play." 17.On Fischer: "[he] tries to make the opponent play something other than the best move, than he - in turn - does make the best move" 18."Everything in chess is rather wooden - wooden pieces, wooden problems, wooden decisions." 19.Petrosian in 1976 rated Ljubojevic's chances of becoming a world championship contender as higher than Mecking's, although both GMs were at that time young superstars. He also mentioned Ulf Andersson and he stated "I hope he will awaken one day" (!) 20.Petrosian received a PhD in 1968 from Yerevan State University
>
P.S M.G. in passage is Mark Ginsburg |
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Sep-09-08
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| Cactus: How is he 100% Armenian and yet has a Turkish dad?
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Sep-10-08 |
| arsen387: hello <Cactus>, I don't know from where you take that info, but Tigran's parents both were Armenians. http://www.chesscorner.com/worldcha... <Tigran Vartanovich Petrosian was born in 1929 in Tbilisi, Georgia of Armenian parents. His parents died before he was 16 and he found consolation in chess.... > Surely neither of his parents were Turkish |
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Sep-10-08 |
| you vs yourself: <arsen387> But in the tidbits you posted above <cactus>'s post, it says: "2.Tigran's dad was a refugee from Turkey" |
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Sep-10-08 |
| arsen387: <you vs yourself>He was a refugee from Turkey, but there were more than 2 million Armenians living in Turkey till Genocide (some Armenian lands were under Ottoman Empire control, which explains why so many Armenians lived there). After the Genocide who could escape, became a refugee. My grandfather was also a refugee from Turkey, but 100% Armenian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeni... |
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Sep-10-08 |
| Petrosianic: Another Petrosian tidbit is that his favorite actress was Natalie Wood. I regret very much that nobody ever seems to have asked him what he thought about her performance in <The Great Race>, particularly the scene where she got involved in the greatest pie fight in the whole history of foreverness: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0BO...
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Sep-10-08
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| Tessie Tura: <Another Petrosian tidbit is that his favorite actress was Natalie Wood.> Born Natalia Zakharenko, a lovely Russian girl. I wonder if he ever saw Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice. |
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Sep-10-08
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| Cactus: <arsen> That explains it. Thanks. |
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Oct-05-08
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| Karpova: From Hanon W. Russell's interview with Kasparov right after the release of Part 1 of "On My Great Predecessors".
Link: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt...
Garry Kasparov: <And I even learned, you know, later Plisetsky found that in early sixties, before playing Botvinnik, Petrosian studied Rubinstein games.> Who knows more about it? Kasparov is probably referring to Dimitry Plisetsky. |
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