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| Dec-14-06 |
| soughzin: Anyone want to discuss this opening sometime with me? I think I just may stick with the french this time. 3.Nc3 is probably the biggest threat to the french and I'm enjoying the McCutcheon and even starting to like the wild Winawer. Some interesting sidelines here but it'd be nice to check my thoughts and computer lines with someone. |
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Dec-14-06
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| ganstaman: <soughzin> If you don't mind, I'm very interested in the French as well (though probably not good enough to really check your thoughts), so if you could eventually post the sidelines here, I'd appreciate it. Either before or after you check them out, I'm still interested. |
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| Dec-22-06 |
| soughzin: Sorry, I've been out with the flu pretty much... I have a couple games tonight where I'll test stuff out if given the opportunity though. A preview is it involves the 16...Na5 sideline in the Qxc3 variation and 13...Nf5 in the Nxc3. |
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| Dec-24-06 |
| soughzin: I doubt I'm too skilled for many on here to even check thoughts! And remember I have limited resources to draw on so maybe I'll look over something completely stupid lol I have no Informators or anything like that...but here goes. Ok just a basic primer as a few of us don't have a fluent knowledge of the very messy branches of the french (I didn't a year ago!) And by the way there will be plenty of shocking moves but I'll save the marks as I'm sure I'd mess them up heh) 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5
White can play exd the exchange,Nd2 the Tarrasch,e5 the advance, or the respected &theory; loaded Nc3 that we're looking at. 3.Nc3 Bb4
The Winawer. Nf6 is also viable, black will play the Classical (4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nd7) or against white's chatard attack (4.Bg5 Be7 5.h4), and also white has the Steinitz (4.e5 Nd7 5.f4) OR black can choose 4.Bg5 Bb4 which is the McCutcheon but he'll still have to face 4.e5 of course. 4.Bg5 dxe is an option but doesn't seem very french to me. So back to 3...Bb4, white has some interesting gambits here but none seem extremely potent,to me anyway. 4.e5 c5 5.a3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Ne7 7.Qg4
White's willing to fight. 7.Nf3 is a solid positional alternative. 7...Qc7 8.Qxg7 Rg8 9.Qxh7 cxd4 10.Ne2(Kd1 I've heard called the do or die variation but I haven't looked into it much personally) 10...Nbc6 11.f4 Bd7 12.Qd3 dxc3 Now 13.Qxc3 or Nxc3 is a crossroad. Just Qxc3 for now : ) 13.Qxc3 Nf5 14.Rb1 0-0-0 15.Rg1 d4 16.Qd3
My opening book says 16...f6 is the move here, with a few others getting a ? mark. And maybe the computer is confused since it begins to really like white. 17.g4 Nh4 18.exf6 e5 and again now more choices.
19.h3 and the book says 19...e4, rybka free prefers Be6, anyone have an opinion on that one? 20.Qxe4 d3 21.cxd Rge8 22.Qc4 Am I missing something here? White seems to be sitting pretty. 19.f7 Rxg4 20.Rxg4 Bxg4 21.Bh3(Qg3 Nf3+ 22.Kf2 Qd7 Book 23.h3 fails but 23.Ng1 looks fine) 21...Qd7 22.Bxg4 Qxg4 23.Qg3 Qh5 24.Rb3 e4 25.Qg7(Qg8 Qd5 looks like a forced draw) d3 26.cxd3 Nf6+ 27.Kf2 Qxh2+ 28.Qg2 Qxg2+ 29.Kxg2 exd3 30.Kxf3 dxe2 31.Re3 Quite a mouthful eh! Not that us club players will remember that but like i said it's just my sorry attempt. The position seems unclear but I'd feel uncomfortable playing black. (Rybka also likes 19.Kf2)
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| Dec-24-06 |
| soughzin: Now going way back to move 16, I like the question marked Na5. 17.g4 Ba4 18.gxf5(I'll get to 18.c3 in a moment) 18...Bxc2 19.Qb5 Rxg1 20.Nxg1 Bxf5(The rook can't escape so there's time for this) 21.Bd2 Bxb1 22.Qxa5 b6 with another on of those "unclears". White has the bishops, sure, but his king is pretty open too. Back to move 20--Nxg1 a6. A nice subltelty which I think is better than the straight Bxb1, later the white queen will not have access to b5. 21.Qb6 Bxb1 22.Qxb1 Nb3 23.Kd1 (Qxb3 Qxc1+ 24.Kf2 Qxf4+ 25.Nf3 Qxf5) So now if White has somehow gotten through this maze without tripping, black has 2 nice plans. Qc3, a wonderful suffocating move, or Nc5. 23...Qc3 which fritz hates and I was scepticle but over and over the numbers keep bouncing back to black's side. White's pieces on the back rank have a crippling effect. 24.fxe6 fxe6 25.Bh3 Kb8 26.Bxe6 Nxc1 27.Qxc1 Qd3+ and one way or another black can play Qg6 forking knight and bishop or picking up the knight with a check on the first rank. 24.Qc2 Kb8 25.Qxc3 dxc3+ 26.Kc2 Na1 and black will answer Rd1 to either of white's options. First Kxc3. 27.Kxc3 Rd1 28.Be3 Rxf1 and the pawns look very dangerous but I think black can handle them. Rb1 and using checks and threats black should survive and maybe win. 27.Kb1 Rd1 and again black seems to hold the pawns, here's one ingenious continuation. 28.Bc4(or Bh3) Rxg1 29.fxe6 fxe6 30.Bxe6 a5! ok I said no exclaims but this I really didn't see coming! White can't win the pawn race. 31.f5 a4 32.f6 Nb3 33.Bxb3 axb3 and black wins. White can't block the pawns either. 31.a4 b5 and much of the same.
But white doesn't have to trade queens just yet. Back to move 25 25.fxe5 fxe6(this can happen later and transpose) 26.Bc4 is the killer. 26...Qxc2+ 27.Kxc2 Nxc1 28.Bxe6 Ne2 29.Nxe2 d3+ 30.Kd2 dxe2 31.Kxe2 and this time the pawns look too powerful. a pawn and strong bishop patrol black's queenside pawns. So white may triumph afterall but one more try is... 24...Na1 25.Qb2 exf5 and one continuation is 26.Be2 Qc6 (Not 27.Qxa1 because of d3) 27.Bf3 Qa4+ 28.Ke1 Nb3 with crazy messiness! Unfortunately white can play 24.fxe6 before Qc2 though! This leads to a fairly good position for white if he/she plays well, sorry to leave this to the end but the odds are white won't play perfect so you should be prepared. So on this bitter note I have to be done for now but I'll post on the Nc5, White's alternative with 18.c3, and the major 13.Nxc3 branch later. Thanks for reading and I hope it helped or interested at least someone. |
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| May-27-07 |
| get Reti: Is this a won endgame for black with the pieces taken off the board, or a tie? |
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Jun-28-07
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| Timeline: The theoretical status of 7...Qc7 is in question today. Lev Psakhis even mentions that in his French Defence series. If you want to play Qc7, 6...Qc7 and answering 7.Qg4 with 7...f5 seems like a reasonable choice. I personally like playing 7...O-O and again you have a choice after 8.Bd3 between f5 and Nc6. GMs look to be favoring Nc6 these days, but you will be able to survive the attack as long as you know the lines. Alternatives include 6...Qa5 which avoids 7.Qg4 entirely. |
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Jun-28-07
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| square dance: <Is this a won endgame for black with the pieces taken off the board, or a tie?> why would it be won for black with just the pawns, and presumably the kings, too? im assuming you mean mean because of the doubled c-pawns for white. if this is the case then what does black really threaten, ...cxd, right? ok, but then cxd right back from white and now white is missing the b-pawn and black is missing the c-pawn. and of course if ...f6 then f4 from white. looks better for white, imo. |
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| Jun-28-07 |
| simsim: <square dance> even if black plays ...cxd and white takes xcd the remaining c-pawn is backwarded and weak. but i guess it is not a won endgame for black, if only kings are left (generally speaking).
but it is definitly not better for white!
probably there are exceptions depending on the position of the kings.if black has can get his king to c4, with the white pawns on c3, d4, e5 and the white king is tied to the defence of c3, i'm quite convinced that black can win the endgame (at least i wouldn't accept a draw :) if both side have some material left, f.e. two rooks (or sth like that), white will probably have an even harder time. the weakness of the pawns is
a more important factor, if you can attack the weakness easily (like
via the semiopen c-file).
note also:
black must not exchange by ..cxd at once. if white takes on the c-file dxc5, the tripled pawns aren't worth a lot in an endgame. |
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Jun-28-07
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| square dance: <even if black plays ...cxd and white takes xcd the remaining c-pawn is backwarded and weak.> well, its not that weak with only kings and especially given their position. <but i guess it is not a won endgame for black, if only kings are left (generally speaking). but it is definitly not better for white!> yes, this is true. white has to defend the a- and c-pawns. my mistake. but i dont know how black could do anything. if black's king goes to the queenside then he cant really make anything meaningful happen on the kingside and vice versa, it seems.
<probably there are exceptions depending on the position of the kings.
if black has can get his king to c4, with the white pawns on c3, d4, e5 and the white king is tied to the defence of c3, i'm quite convinced that black can win the endgame (at least i wouldn't accept a draw :)> yes, but i dont see how black could get that position though. |
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| Jun-28-07 |
| simsim: <square dance>
In the position (where black already exchanged 1...cxd4 cxd4) where white is tied to defence of c3. white is lost, because
click for larger viewthe winning idea for black is to break through on the queen side
after some preparation.
first we'll start with 2...f6, 3.f4 fxe5
f.e.
4.fxe5 b5 now black will break through on the queenside 5.g4 a5 white has no useful moves
6.h4 b4 black forces the exchange on b4
7.axb4 axb4
8.cxb4 Kxd4 the king stays close enough to the white passed pawn leading to the following position
click for larger vieweither a) 9.Kb3 or b) 9.b5 and black chops off white's e-pawn 9...Kxe5 (the king stays inside the square of the passed pawn, so black can easily stop the white passed pawn) of course white has some other options.
(f.e. 4.dxe5, then black needs another plan like 4...d4 cxd4... and
black king going to the queen-side)
but i don't think white can hold the draw (in this particular case). black's main idea is clear.
of course the black king had a very good position to start from (for the sake of pointing out the winning idea). i hope i didn't make any mistakes. |
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Jun-28-07
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| micartouse: I'm going to try cracking White open now. :) How about move the King to a4 at which point the White king is on the queenside (probably ...b6 has to be thrown in for a recapture). Now play ... a5 and ... Kb5 and if Kb3 then ... a4+ and Black can penetrate to c4 and win material. Maybe White needs to move the K up instead and try to trade off a c-pawn? If I find out this is winning for Black, I'll never play the White side of Winawer again! |
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| Jun-28-07 |
| simsim: <square dance> sorry i just realized i misread your post.
<yes, but i dont see how black could get that position though.>
i thought you couldn't see how black can break through. so i worked it out.
of course it is difficult to achieve this particular position in a real game. it is very unlikely that the white player would allow to exchange all the pieces. this would be plain stupid.
it is more a theoretical debate :) |
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Jun-28-07
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| micartouse: I Fritz-checked the position. My idea has a ridiculous logical flaw: if Black can penetrate to a4, he can also penetrate to c4 straightaway. So Black to Play in this ending is a trivial win: Ke8-d7-c6-b5-c4 White resigns. Now White to play looks trickier since he can trade a bad pawn off but it's still looking very grim. |
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Jun-28-07
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| Phony Benoni: <simsim> It's a very minor point in your interesting analysis, but I would have played differently at one point.
click for larger view
Now your 8...Kxd4 does seem to win, but I would have played 8...Kxb4 instantly because I know that such positions are easy wins for Black. White must play 9.Kd3 to keep the Black king out of c4, but Black just moves his king on b3 and b4 until White rund out of pawn moves. Then, after (say) 10.Kd2 Kc4 11.Ke3 Kc3, the d-pawn falls and it's all over. Perhaps 8...Kxd4 is a bit quicker and more exact, but given my endgame skills in general I always prefer not having to calculate any possible counterplay at all. |
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| Jun-30-07 |
| simsim: <phony benoni>yes you're right. i was fascinated by how the black king could just get two pawns while still keeping the white passed pawn under control (and finally winning it). so i didn't see the easy line. your line is just more to the point: white's pawns are too weak, so black needs no trick :) |
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Jul-06-07
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| ganstaman: I have a question about 6...Nc6 7. Qg4 g6 as seen here: Anand vs Ponomariov, 2007 My question is also posted there, but here is probaly a better place to respond: "This variation of the Winawer reminds me of the Lasker variation of the MacCutcheon, only without white's king being in as vulnerable a position, and also white's DSB and black's kingside knight are still on the board. To me, then, this seems inferior. Is there more to this than I am seeing?" |
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| Jul-11-07 |
| simsim: <ganstaman> i think the fact that the king is already on d2 in the macCutcheon seems like an advantage for white in comparison to the above line:
putting the king on d2 connects the rooks, protects c3 and allows white to carry on with the natural attacking plan h4-Th3-Tg3 (or something similar). Kxd2 does not just take back a piece. apart from that it is simple a useful move. generally speaking the king is also quite safe there. another point: note that (in the above winawer variation) black is able to develop his queenside (i think this is the point of ...Nc6) one tempo faster than in the macCutcheon. black closes the center (...c4) and castles long as fast as possible. so the standard plan with Th3 does not make much sense. but maybe i miss something.
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| Jul-12-07 |
| simsim: erratum: about the "natural attacking" plan ...h4-Th3-Tg3... -> actually Tg3 not directly part of the plan. The point is that the king on d2, allows white a very flexible development of the rooks: Thb2 (after Nf3 of course:) / Th3 or whatever, depending on blacks play. |
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Oct-25-07
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| Timeline: 6...Qa5 is an interesting choice in this line. A lot of top GMs (Vaganian, Lputian, Akopian etc.) play it these days from time to time. Vaganian plays this variation almost exclusively. I've also seen American GMs such as Shulman, Ibragimov, Onischuk playing it from time to time. At least, statistically it has done better than its Ne7 and Qc7 counterparts. Recently, I've switched to playing this line from entering poisoned pawn variation via 6...Ne7. |
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| Jun-26-08 |
| offtherook: Opening of the day 6/26/08. For a long time I always played the Tarrasch so as to avoid the Winawer, but, inspired by the "Battle of the Brains" consultation match (I'm on Team White), I decided to allow the Winawer for the first time ever in a game on FICS, played the Poison Pawn variation, and eventually came out on top. I certainly made my share of mistakes, and was getting sloppy towards the end due to time trouble, but overall this was a decent game. offtherook (1552) - lotusrobot (1766)
15 0 rated standard
1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e5 c5 5 a3 Bxc3+ 6 bxc3 Qc7 7 Qg4 Ne7 8 Qxg7 Rg8 9 Qxh7 Nbc6 10 Qd3 cxd4 11 cxd4 Nf5 12 c3 a6 13 Nf3 Na5 14 Qc2 Bd7 15 Ng5 Rc8 16 Bd2 Nc4 17 Bxc4 Qxc4 18 Qa2 Qd3 19 Qb1 Qc4 20 Qb4 Bb5 21 Qxc4 Bxc4 22 Rb1 b5 23 g3 Ke7 24 Nh7 Bd3 25 Rb4? a5 26 Rb2 Rc7 27 Nf6 Rgc8 28 Ra2 Rc4 29 f3 Ra4 30 Kf2 Bc4 31 Raa1 Bd7 32 h4 Rh8 33 Bg4 Kf8 34 g4 Ne7 35 Nd7+ Ke8 36 Nc5 Rc4 37 Bxe7 Rxc3 38 Bf7 Rh7 39 Nxd3 Rxd3 40 Rad1?? Rxa3 (crap, now my opponent has 2 passed pawns and this game could get really double-edged) 41 Ke2 Kd7 42 h5 Ra2+ 43 Rd2 Ra4 44 Rb1 b4 45 Rdb2 Ra3 46 Rb3 Ra2 47 Ke3 Kc6 48 Kf4 Kb5 49 Kg5 Rf2 50 h6 Rd2 51 Bg7 Rxd4 52 Kf6 Rf4+ 53 Ke7 d4 54 Kf8 Kc4 55 Kg8 d3 56 Kxh7 Rxf3 57 Kg8 Rf2 58 h7 Rh2 59 h8=Q Rxh8+ 60 Bxh8 d2 61 Kxf7 d1=Q 62 Rxd1 Kxb3 63 Kxe6 Kc2 64 Rd5 b3 65 Rxa5 b2 66 Rb5 1-0 Any thoughts? Improvements for either side, suggestions, comments, etc would be greatly appreciated. I think he made a lot of pointless moves with his rook that just cost him tempos without doing anything, and he should have leveraged his queenside passed pawns better and earlier to cause more trouble. I actually think that after my blunder on move 40 Black was probably better, even winning, because of the passed pawns and because of the tortuous route my king had to take on the kingside to help those pawns forward. He did, however, make excellent use of his LSB, which normally is not so active in the French. After I got up 2 pawns, I was largely trying to trade down because his pieces seemed more active than mine for much of the middlegame and I wanted to get down to an ending that I could win. Another motive to trade down was my king being effectively trapped in the middle of the board. If I can't get my king safely castled, the next best thing is trade down so my opponent never has enough material available to mate my exposed king. I might annotate this game later if I have time, and if I do I'll post that along with diagrams for key positions. It was a rather long game, especially for such a short time control�I ended up having on average just over 10-12seconds/move. |
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| Jun-26-08 |
| whiteshark: <offtherook> It didn't work after 31. Raa1 as the  can't movo to d7. Also 33.Bg4 looks like Bg5.You may like to post an efficient pgn. :D |
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| Jun-26-08 |
| Alphastar: I think the Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 variation is pretty OK too. I would play it if I'm ever going to play the Winawer. |
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| Jun-26-08 |
| offtherook: <whiteshark: <offtherook> It didn't work after 31. Raa1 as the B can't movo to d7. Also 33.Bg4 looks like Bg5.>
Yes, when I wrote this down my handwriting was rather bad. It should be 31...Bd3 and 33 Bg5. Sorry. For some reason, this didn't save in my journal on FICS when I tried to, so I lost that record of the game. |
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| Jun-26-08 |
| offtherook: Here is a repost of just the game with typos corrected. offtherook (1552) - lotusrobot (1766)
15 0 rated standard
1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e5 c5 5 a3 Bxc3+ 6 bxc3 Qc7 7 Qg4 Ne7 8 Qxg7 Rg8 9 Qxh7 Nbc6 10 Qd3 cxd4 11 cxd4 Nf5 12 c3 a6 13 Nf3 Na5 14 Qc2 Bd7 15 Ng5 Rc8 16 Bd2 Nc4 17 Bxc4 Qxc4 18 Qa2 Qd3 19 Qb1 Qc4 20 Qb4 Bb5 21 Qxc4 Bxc4 22 Rb1 b5 23 g3 Ke7 24 Nh7 Bd3 25 Rb4? a5 26 Rb2 Rc7 27 Nf6 Rgc8 28 Ra2 Rc4 29 f3 Ra4 30 Kf2 Bc4 31 Raa1 Bd3 32 h4 Rh8 33 Bg5 Kf8 34 g4 Ne7 35 Nd7+ Ke8 36 Nc5 Rc4 37 Bxe7 Rxc3 38 Bf7 Rh7 39 Nxd3 Rxd3 40 Rad1?? Rxa3 (crap, now my opponent has 2 passed pawns and this game could get really double-edged) 41 Ke2 Kd7 42 h5 Ra2+ 43 Rd2 Ra4 44 Rb1 b4 45 Rdb2 Ra3 46 Rb3 Ra2 47 Ke3 Kc6 48 Kf4 Kb5 49 Kg5 Rf2 50 h6 Rd2 51 Bg7 Rxd4 52 Kf6 Rf4+ 53 Ke7 d4 54 Kf8 Kc4 55 Kg8 d3 56 Kxh7 Rxf3 57 Kg8 Rf2 58 h7 Rh2 59 h8=Q Rxh8+ 60 Bxh8 d2 61 Kxf7 d1=Q 62 Rxd1 Kxb3 63 Kxe6 Kc2 64 Rd5 b3 65 Rxa5 b2 66 Rb5 1-0 |
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