This week's announcement about evangelist Todd Bentley's hasty remarriage and restoration is sending a confusing message to the church.
I groaned when I learned early this week that Canadian preacher Todd Bentley, leader of the controversial Lakeland Revival, had decided to divorce his wife, Shonnah, and marry his former ministry intern, Jessa Hasbrook. The news surfaced after almost nine months of silence and speculation, during which time the board of Bentley's Fresh Fire Ministries in British Columbia publicly scolded him for committing adultery.
In a statement released March 10 by Rick Joyner, the popular author and minister who is overseeing Bentley's restoration process, we were told that (1) Bentley married his new wife several weeks ago and moved to Joyner's base in Fort Mill, S.C.; (2) Todd and Jessa agree that their relationship was "wrong and premature" and that it "should not have happened the way it did"; (3) Bentley will remain out of public ministry while he seeks healing; and (4) Joyner will oversee the healing process with input from Dallas pastor Jack Deere and California pastor Bill Johnson. (Read Rick Joyner's response to this column.)
| "Many of us have rejected biblical discipline and adopted a sweet, spineless love that cannot correct." |
It was also announced that Bentley plans to relaunch his ministry, called Fresh Fire USA, in Fort Mill, and that Joyner is now collecting donations from supporters to help rebuild it. (The Canadian ministry Bentley started has now been renamed Transform International, and it has severed ties with the evangelist.)
In a few places in his statement Joyner expressed tough love, especially when he said: "We know that trust has to be earned and that Todd will have to earn the trust of the body of Christ for future ministry, which will not be easy, nor should it be." He also made it clear that true repentance and restoration "can only come if we refuse to compromise the clear biblical standards for morality and integrity."
But there were some glaring omissions in the statements released this week that indicate a fundamental weakness in our freestyle approach to "restoring" fallen leaders.
First of all, it is outrageous that Shonnah Bentley, Todd's first wife, does not seem to be an issue in the current discussion. Her name is never mentioned in Joyner's statement—while Todd is mentioned 18 times. We are never told how Shonnah is handling the divorce. How will she manage to care for the three children she and Todd share? She and the kids seem invisible in this process. Yet if anyone needs healing and restoration, is it not the other half of this broken family?
Second, we charismatics still seem to have a habit of elevating gifting above character. It's almost as if the end justifies the means. (So what if a preacher ruins one marriage and makes a hasty decision to marry a younger woman—the important thing is that we get him back in the pulpit to heal the sick!) That is a perversion of biblical integrity. God can anoint any man or woman with the Holy Spirit's power; what He is looking for are vessels of honor that can carry that anointing with dignity, humility and purity.
What is most deplorable about this latest installment in the Bentley scandal is the lack of true remorse. In his own statement, Bentley apologizes for his actions and says he "takes full responsibility for my part for the ending of the marriage." But how can he be taking "full responsibility" if he willingly chose to have a girlfriend on the side—and then married her immediately after his divorce was final? Why did he hide for several months when he should have been listening to counsel and seeking reconciliation with his first wife?
Many Christians today have rejected biblical discipline and adopted a sweet, spineless love that cannot correct. Our grace is greasy. No matter what an offending brother does, we stroke him and pet him and nurse his wounds while we ignore the people he wounded. No matter how heinous his sin, we offer comforting platitudes because, after all, who are we to judge?
When the apostle Paul learned that a member of the Corinthian church was in an immoral relationship with his father's wife, he did not rush to comfort the man. He told the Corinthians: "You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst" (I Cor. 5:2). Sometimes we must draw a ruthless sword in order to bring genuine healing. The "wounds of a friend" are faithful to bring conviction and true repentance (see Prov. 27:6).
Paul actually delivered the unrepentant Corinthian man to Satan "for the destruction of his flesh" (5:5) so that he could be saved. That does not sound very nice. Many today would call Paul's tactic harsh and legalistic. But that is because we have lost any true sense of the fear of the Lord—and we don't realize that our laxness about God's standards is a perversion of His mercy. When the sin is severe, the public rebuke must be severe.
In all the discussion of Bentley and the demise of the Lakeland Revival, I am waiting to hear the sound of sackcloth ripping into shreds. We should be weeping. We should be rending our hearts—as God commanded Israel when they fell into sin (see Joel 2: 13-14). To give guidance to a confused church, our leaders should have publicly decried the Lakeland disaster while at the same time helping both Todd and Shonnah to heal.
We have not mourned this travesty. We have not been shocked and appalled that such sin has been named among us. We act as if flippant divorce and remarriage are minor infractions—when in actuality they are such serious moral failures that they can bring disqualification.
If we truly love Todd Bentley, we will not clamor for his quick return to the pulpit. While we certainly want him to be fully restored to fellowship with God, we cannot rush the process of restoring a man to ministry. Leaders must live up to a higher standard. We must demand that those involved in Bentley's restoration not only love him but also love the church by protecting us from the kind of scandal we endured last year.
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma. To read Rick Joyner's and Todd Bentley's public statement click here.
Read Rick Joyner's Response to Lee Grady's Column, "The Tragic Scandal of Greasy Grace."
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calmwhisper
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Its me again Hi, its me again. I was reading what Phil was writing and I want to share my experience with some of these signs and wonders. First of all, the gold dust and so called angel feathers. That supposedly was happening in a church I attended. It got to the point, that every service, someone was crawling on the floor like an animal trying to find gold dust or angel feathers or jewels. I thought they were crazy and asked them why are they looking on satans territory (under our feet) for something when they should be looking to the hills, where God tells us to look. These things were happening to just about 4 or 5 people in the church who in turn began to use it as a point of condemnation towards those who were not experiencing it. Now, which part of that was God? This same church came under BJ's alignment of Churches. Before they did that, I began, because of transportation issues, to stay at the church and spent my Sunday afternoons seeking God's face. I needed a revelation of His love for me. I was suicidal and could not tell anyone. I was active in the church, but never truly been saved by Grace. After 4 months of doing this, someone came to me and said if I was truly seeking God, I would have gold dust on my face. I, in my dispair, went into a broom closet to ask God why He hated me so. For the first time in months I heard His voice. He spoke to me and said, you are seeking my face and my face you will see. They are seeking gold dust and gold dust they will see. Two months later, God gave me a revelation about his Grace and I have not been the same. The one thing I look for now as signs and wonders are the little things. The birds singing first thing in the morning and watching them being fed by God's hand, the flowers blooming whether deep strong roots or small delicate roots, a friend coming to Christ and seeing them hear His voice for the first time, my son being healed of pneumonia 1000 miles away and coming to trust God no matter what. The people in my church did not even see the change in my life because they wanted to see something big. I had no one to share my joy with. One day, God told me to leave when I heard them saying Jesus name as in reference to a parable and Bill Johnson's name as if it where Jesus. He became the center of their affections and beliefs. I know this may not be his fault, but he has to know it is happening. He is in contact with these people enough. Also, one of those ladies went to Lakeland, got hands laid on her, went back and laid hands on people at the church. One confessed to me she felt as if she was going insane, one brother's wife announced she was leaving him and one other brother who had been walking with God for a while all of a sudden began to get angry, kidnapped his girlfriend, who is my best friend, beat her beyond recogntion, tried to kill her and planned to dump her body in a stream, but God intervened. It is not over for them yet. This all happened after the anointing transfer. Not all good came out of the anointing from an angry evangelist who worshipped angels, mocked God's Holy Spirit and was in the midst of an adulterous affair. Phil, this is where the danger lies in these signs and wonder chasings. Please keep your eyes open, your heart open to what God is really doing and don't be easily fooled. I do not doubt your sincerity or what you experienced, I am just concerned that it may become a point of condemnation upon people who do not experience what you experience. The other points on here can do the same thing, but I only truly know this one with fear and trembling. I am praying for Todd, Rick J and Bill J daily because if this is a false doctrine they are endorsing, it will cause more havoc in the church and I bet God is ready for us to seek His face and quit making more messes for him to clean up. This is my humble yet baby in Christ position. Signed the Child whom Jesus loves very, very much. |
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phil194
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... You misunderstand me, and I am taken back that'd you group me in that category. I did not go for the "glitter". I went because I was hungry for God and nothing else. I was at a terrible point in my life, and all I know is I started watching God move in power at Lakeland and felt Him restore me. I wanted more of Him! That is why I went. The manifestations were extra, and just that much more because we serve an extravagant God. And yes, the person with the gold tooth did have it confirmed by the dentist. My mom's healing was permanent, and I had a life change that is still affecting me to this day. There was glitter on my hands, and it was extremely noticeable. I experienced it again at MorningStar, and it was a little too much for me to "imagine." Sorry you need proof to believe, but that's where faith comes in. And none of us (the people I know who were blessed by the Lakeland revival) attribute these things to "Lakeland" itself or TB, but to God who was moving there. TB was so hungry for God, I believed God gave him an anointing to do mighty things in His name, and many people were saved. And, I heard TB countlessly point to the glory of God above all else. He was rough around the edges though, no doubt about it, and he did have pride, as well. God still used him though. God uses the worst of sinners, as evidenced in the Bible. Yes. You're right - I got something out of Lakeland because of my faith in God. That's why alot of people were there! Because they believed in God! I heard Todd say himself that, "It's not me! You [the congregation] are the ones God wants to use to help your brothers and sisters in Christ." He was pointing the attention away from himself, and telling us to rely on God alone. I heard him say that personally. Todd committed adultery by marrying that woman, I agree. However, he has admitted that this was wrong, and I am not sure it's God's will to just make them have a second divorce if they're seriously repentant. Let God be the judge. Afterall, David stayed married to a woman he got through murder. Is it any different that Todd's current marriage arrived through adultery? If he's truly repentant, and I think ti's too early to know for sure, then I am not convinced that God wants to shut down his current relationship. Instead of casting all this judgment upon these believers, why not join in what we're all looking for? More of God in our lives. |
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contend4thef8th
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Yo, Phil! Phil194 said, "I am not a gullible person. I went to Lakeland, and God changed my life. No questions asked. The incredible things that were told to be happening I actually witnessed happen. These things happened to people I know, people I trust. I know someone who got a gold tooth from going to one of these things. I felt God's presence like never before, and it wasn't something anyone tricked me into believing. It was INTENSE. I know people personally who have experienced "gold dust" and "feathers." It's a spirit thing!" Phil, many are, sadly, drawn to the phenomenon, And whatever "healing" we received we attribute it to the "event" we attended and declare it is of God because it happened to me and my friends. Do your friends with the gold tooth have a regular dentist? Has their Dentist confirm that one of the teeth, which was normal BL (before Lakeland) has now turned to gold. Anyone have an empty pill bottle to fill it with gold dust? Have they had the gold dust appraised as genuine? Any birds or "angels" missing feathers? Get someone who studies Ornithology, examine the feathers and get the results of all three manifestations in writting. It's not just "a spirit thing." Manifestations are not proof that God's presence was really there or that the place was anointed by God Almighty Himself. It just proves, as apostle Paul said, that regardless of the speaker's motive, God's Word will never return void. It will accomplish his will on earth as it is in heaven. Sadly we equate manifestations with God's anointing and not the charactor of the person speaking. In other words their charactor, attitude, holiness and obedience. We overlook these attributes, mostly ignore them, if that there person, "Can whip up a frenzy of gospel shoutin' and excitement." Many of the "manifestations" do you see them in the Bible? All I see are men and women with godly charactor ministering to the body using their Spiritual gifts and anointing. I see healings, salvations and deliverence. These three alone are enough to get anyones attention w/o the use of gold, dust, or feathers. I am glad your life has changed but it's not because of Lakeland or TB, it was your faith and God. I betcha, if Christians are allowed to bet, that you will go to one of TB's meetings once he has been "restored." Why not? People did the same when Paul Cain, Jimmy Swaggert, Earl Paulk and his brother hoped back into the pulpit without truly repenting or taking time to "be restored." Maybe because they were worried about THEIR MINISTRY falling apart. Tragic, very tragic. BTW, when you said, "You can believe in the movement without believing in the man." Did you HEAR YOURSELF? So, IYHO, the movement may be godly if the man, like TB, is not? Then why go? It's you who are blind and those like you who will go to an event for the "glitter" and not for His glory. |
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lastblast
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... Phil, The problem is that you and many of us are viewing the "fruit" from a whole different perspective. Obviously you are viewing the changed lives of people (I'm hoping you are speaking of PERMANENT change/repentance, etc) and attributing that to MEN, instead of attributing that to God. God ALWAYS produces good fruit.........as does His Word, but man, well, God has told us how to judge their "fruit"...........and those involved with Lakeland do not appear to have good fruit in their accounts. You speak of miracles like they are evidence of God's moving in the midst. Do you not know the scriptures which tell us to beware of signs and wonders by DECEIVERS??? Those who are truly "hearing" from God and walking in HIS annointing are not going to be those caught up in drunkenness and adultery...........why?? Because they are totally focused on GOD and HIS WILL. Such a one would never dare to charge wrongdoing on the wife of the philanderer for not "boosting" his ego............telling him what a Great job he is doing for God--and blaming her for her husband succombing to encouragement from another woman. I read the lastest transcript and was appalled at the blameshifting. If one is TRULY working for the Kingdom, they are not focused on the lauds of man, but are only focused on lifting up Jesus and seeing men turn from their sin and to the living God. I am at a loss with how you do not see any wrongdoing on RJ's part. He is trying to "restore" a man who is STILL in adultery according to the Word of God. Can a person be restored when they are living with a woman whom GOD has said is NOT your wife? I do not believe so. http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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phil194
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My Take First of all, what I am about to say has little to do with Todd Bentley. He messed up big time. However, it’d be non-biblical to say he should never be allowed another chance. Most of the highly revered heroes on Scripture are testimonies to God’s redemptive nature! Todd Bentley may have facilitated Lakeland, but it was God’s doing, and no one else’s. No man could have done what Lakeland did. I went there twice, and no one could EVER convince me that God wasn’t there. You can believe in the movement without believing in the man. I am not a gullible person. I went to Lakeland, and God changed my life. No questions asked. The incredible things that were told to be happening I actually witnessed happen. These things happened to people I know, people I trust. I know someone who got a gold tooth from going to one of these things. I felt God's presence like never before, and it wasn't something anyone tricked me into believing. It was INTENSE. I know people personally who have experienced "gold dust" and "feathers." It's a spirit thing! Good grief, it isn't sorcery! It's the awesomeness of God! You probably think I am blind as a bat for saying this, but maybe you're the ones who are blind to what God is doing. Do you understand? It would be like someone hitting me with a brick only to have the thrower say, "You imagined that." |
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phil194
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My Take I don't know Todd's intentions, and neither do any of you. But one thing I can say is that these people some of you have mentioned as deceivers and what-not have not in the slightest given me reason to doubt them. They give all the glory to God, and are seeking Him out just as much as any of you. They're using Scripture to support what they believe. DUH. So are you! I am not supporting relativism, only the silliness of claiming someone was using Scripture to support their beliefs. Everyone has an unconscious bias, and we, often unknowingly, read things in a way that points to what we believe. What if these people actually had real experiences with God? Wouldn't it make sense, then, that their interpretations of Scripture (which are not as weird and far-fetched as some make it seem) could have a basis from the Holy Spirit? Look at the fruit! I've seen so many people blessed by what these people are doing. People are getting healed. My mom was one of them. My pastor went to MorningStar after their “Holy Spirit breakout” and some dude came up to him, prayed for him, and the metal rods in his toes (from an accident) that kept him from being able to bend them disappeared! Was he gullible too? Maybe he imagined the metal rods disappearing. Maybe he couldn’t actually bend his toes… I don’t think so. It’s pretty obvious. Is it that hard to accept that God is bigger than His book? He would NEVER contradict anything in Scripture, but even the gospel writers admit that not every miracle of Jesus was recorded. Jesus did mighty and wonderful things, and He said we'd do even greater things with the Holy Spirit! God is going to move in new ways, because He is HUGE and creative! I can't help but notice the underlying self-righteousness in some of these people showing others' self-righteousness! Look! I'm doing the same thing! One thing I know: God has moved in INTENSE ways, and they are undeniable truths. I felt His love in ways that just made me weep consistently, and both Lakeland and MorningStar helped me get closer to God. These people may be flawed, but I have no doubt in my mind that God is using them anyway. We're all flawed. God offers freedom, satan offers bondage. I am free in Christ – not free to sin, not free to believe what I want, but free. I am free to be in Him. If I was actually deceived by satan, I would not be free. I would be in bondage, and I most definitely wouldn’t have the joy of the Lord, because God alone satisfies. Nothing else. |
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phil194
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My Take Hear what the Holy Spirit is saying! Yes, be skeptical of these teachings and things, but don’t get so caught up in what you think is true that you miss asking God for discernment yourself! I know this may seem hypocritical, but I feel like I have a right to say this because of what God has done in my life. He has taken me out of a depression in the blink of an eye through Lakeland, and I can’t imagine anyone or anything else but God doing something so wonderful. That’s just the tip of the iceberg in what I’ve experienced. Don’t cap God and what He does just because it isn’t blatantly included in the Bible. The Bible should support all teachings, but not all teachings will be explicitly written out there. Here’s a thought: even Jesus was accused of having demonic intentions. Maybe these so-called “twistings” of Scripture are actually true revelations that carry ideals regarding a new move of God! It isn’t contradicting the Scripture, just unpacking it in a godly manner that builds up the body of Christ. Do you really think Rick Joyner is trying to deceive everyone? Really? It sounds to me like many of those against RJ and BJ just haven’t experienced the power of God for themselves, and so when they see it, they make up reasons for why they don’t have it. I know what I believe, and I know my God! Jesus Christ is the most amazing friend, brother, and king! I walk with Him daily, and I find it offensive that some assume that because I believe in what some of these “heretics” are doing, that I’ve given into satan! Give me a break! I’ve come against satan, and I can tell you that he would not be supporting people who are supporting God. They would be praising themselves, and although some say that they do this, I’ve been to many of their meetings and haven’t got the slightest inkling to support any of these claims. I mean, what these people support – like healings, prophecy, visions, etc…- are Biblical things that every Christian is called to walk in! How is this so weird and crazy? At the end of Mark, it says that you will be able to tell Christians apart because they’ll be walking in the gifts of the spirit. How are BJ, RJ, etc… not doing this? Where are you drawing this miracle / heresy line? Maybe I am missing something here, and God help me if I am wrong, because I really want to follow His will alone. I know what He has said to me, and has confirmed to me supernaturally, and nothing can convince me otherwise as far as that goes, but if I have some sort of theological flaw, I pray God would reveal it to me. I pray you would do the same. |
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Globalgospel
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Law and Marriage (Jews) Under Jewish Laws should a Jewish man under law divorce his wife in order to then marry another (according to law?). NO ! Should a Jewish woman under law who has been put away lawfully by her husband for having committed fornication then remarry? NO! But, as according to this article? and the review of the comments?- no one has reviewed Scriptures which truly and simply apply to this present day situation now amongst these Gentiles from Canada? First, the article indicates the man (maybe?) went to Canada to file a separation and await the 9 months for Canada Laws allowing a divorcement to take place. However, it's confusing (maybe?) he couldn't go back to Canada without risking re-entry toward citizenship in Calfornia-No. Carolina? So, did his wife needs to have filed for the separation? and then divorce? not the U.S. way, but the Canadian way? In any event, all this back and forth over Matt. 19 only proves people want to believe what they want to believe (even for their own purposes and chosen lives lived HERE and to be still lived out THERE). Jesus made it clear a man should NOT put away his non-fornicating wife (under Jewish laws) strickly for the express PURPOSE of marrying another woman (as in trade-in for a younger model?). And, the woman (who as a wife 'being a fornicator?') when put away would also be considered in re-marriage to be bringing the object of her fornications into adultery ALSO with her, should she remarry as soon as she has been lawfully then put away. Simply, we do not see any of this application apply HERE to these Gentiles under Canada laws NOR any U.S. of America laws (also of California or North Carolina?). An agreed upon Biblical 'separation' for a time is for fasting and prayers, but HOWEVER an agreed upon 'separation' by BOTH for OTHER reasons does NOT come under marriage and divorce GENTILE laws whether Canadian or United States of America. PLEASE, PLEASE GIVE IT A REST ! (the "elders" in N.C. need NOT false imputs....) |
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contend4thef8th
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Oh, Lord, does it never end? nk1167 said, "I stand corrected; Matthew 9:9 does describe remarriage as adultery. However, Jesus did not accuse the woman caught in adultery but forgave her and accused her accusers of casting judgment on her sin when they themselves are no different (sinners just liker her). Notice Jesus didn't accuse the woman in sin but those who accused her." Oh, Lord, does it never end? People like nk1167 who read the Word with biased coloured glasses? You really do not know how to read the text. It's just not what Jesus said, but what he did not say. When he asked "He who is w/o sin, cast the first stone." Jesus was accusing them NOT for judging her but FOR having the gall to accuse her of adultery while they themselves are guilty of the same sin. Notice the crowd did not bring the man to be stoned. How typical of a patriach culture. Christinas ARE to judge sin, it's in your bible if you will only read it, as a whole. Furthermore, Jesus TOLD the woman to go and SIN NO MORE. What do you think Jesus would have done if she was caught a second time? Remember the man at the pool? When Jesus saw him at the temple later, Jesus told him NOT to sin or things will get worse for him. Forgiveness is not a license to keep sinning. As Paul said, "Should we continue to sin since grace abounds toward us? Certainly not!" Holding onto our sin means we will reap what we sowed. Despite Christians teaching that one reaps what they sow, forget God's forgiveness cancels the process. There is a lot of that in the OT. |
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lastblast
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nk Nk, The phrase, "God is not mocked" is used by both sides of this issue. The truth is that God is the discerner of hearts/motives. In that, man can be fooled, but God is not. However, when you use the term it is a slam at those who are calling out blatant sin and those who are supporting UNREPENTANT sin. Yes, I said, UNREPENTANT sin. Todd IS in adultery. According to God's own Word on the issue, he is NOT in lawful marriage in the sight of God. So, until he forsakes this present relationship and the heart/lust ties with this woman, he will CONTINUE to be in sin. The fact that Rick Joyner is trying to "restore" Todd WHILE HE REMAINS IN ADULTERY, SHOULD be called out. You mention Jesus' handling of the woman caught in adultery.............you are right, He did not condemn her, but what did He tell her: "Go and sin no more". In other words, stop committing adultery. Todd needs to stop committing adultery and those who want to bring him to TRUE restoration need to exhort him to STOP COMMITTING ADULTERY with a woman that God does not acknowledge as his lawful wife. I would gander to say that MOST here, though outraged by all the shenanigans/deceit/etc which occurred at Lakeland and seem to be continuing with Rick Joyner, desire to see TRUE repentance occur with all parties who are not walking in God's will, but seeking after "other things". Not only do the angels in heaven rejoice when one sinner turns from his way and turns to the Lord, but all those who truly LOVE JESUS rejoice when we see a brother/sister or a lost person turn away from sin and into the arms of Jesus---no longer seeking after their own ways, but seeking to do HIS WILL. Blessings......... |
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nk1167
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I stand correct on the issue of Remarriage I stand corrected; Matthew 9:9 does describe remarriage as adultery. However, Jesus did not accuse the woman caught in adultery but forgave her and accused her accusers of casting judgment on her sin when they themselves are no different (sinners just liker her). Notice Jesus didn't accuse the woman in sin but those who accused her. I mourn for you, Lee Grady, and those who support this article and the bashing of Todd, Rick, and Bill: because God is not mocked, you reap what you sow... |
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Search Your Bible
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Divorce + Remarriage = Adultery MARRIAGE = A COVENANT BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN, UNTIL DEATH http://www.cadz.net/remarriage.html http://www.marriagedivorce.com/HaveYouNotRead.pdf |
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nk1167
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A Response to Lee's Arguments As a Christian myself, I realize how easy it is to get off in tangents when discussing theology. However, its always good to come back to the article's initial argument. Point #1: His first point is that Todd's 1st wife seems to be out of the discussions. My Comment: I think they answered those concerns in some of their latest videos at: http://www.morningstarministri...tleys.aspx Point #2: Charismatics focus on anointing rather than character. My comment: I agree; It is true that anointing is not a badge for character. I don't think any of us charismatics would disagree. Point #3: Lee feels Bentley has shown little remorse over the divorce and little repentance for getting remarried so soon. My comment: while laughter is a manifestation of joy, no one expects everyone to laugh if they are experiencing joy. In the same manner, I would caution Lee not to denounce Todd because he hasn't show manifestations of sorrow or mourning. It may not be clear to us. But we can only see his actions; not his heart. His heart may truly be sorrowful. And as for his remarriage: just because he should not have gotten divorce does not mean God didn't will his remarriage. Nor does his repentant heart (if he has truly repented) mean that he will not make mistakes around the issue of marriage again. While I believe you, Lee, may mean well, you have smeared his name with a blatant acusation, which actions are not biblical and unloving towards Todd, Rick and those who would want to see Christ's redemption experience be everyone one involved and those who are being witnessed to through this crisis. I believe the Bible would call you to be gentle with them, making sure you too do not fall into sin as well. We as humans have a tendency to judge and then distance ourselves from them. However, by separating yourself from Todd and his restoration ministry, you have also separated yourself from God and how he may use you to restore others. Perhaps a letter urging others to pray for Todd, Rick, and charismatics would have been more appropriate than judgment and discrimination. Thank you for reading, I know i have written much but I felt need to explain myself throughly. My last point: We have not mourned over this tragedy. I may be mislead, but the paragraphs seem to be targeted at deeper issue: the Lakeland Revival and your (Lee) own feelings towards what occurred. As I read in a different article, you said that all that attended were "gullible." The statement made reveals you did not attend the meetings. My comment: Lets talk about Judgment first. You hear it all over the place: who are we to judge? As many have articulated in their comments, it is important to interpret scripture as a whole and not take a verse, or chapter, out of context. The Bible says do not judge, for the way in which you judge, it will be judge back to you. When I pull out in front of a car, I have to make a judgment of the distance so I know if it is safe to pull out. Paul prays that the church would have spiritual discernment. So we are to judge; just judge as you wish to be judged. If you want grace, give it; etc. What was the sin of Lakeland that you called it a tragedy? Is it Todd Bentley? If it is Todd's error, then you must be mourning always, because Todd's not the first minister or leader to be divorced! My last comment: You judge us for not mourning, are you? Are you mourning for your own forgiveness because of this tragedy? The bible says he who has been forgiven much, loves much. If you've been crying out for forgiveness like you describe, knowing that God forgives those who confess and repent, you should have lots of love (which is a verb and not just words) to give away to Todd, Rick and the charismatic church. Know that you will be judged according to your judgment: if you accuse us of not mourning, you better be loving. And I will be accountable for my judgment of your judging as well. |
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calmwhisper
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Thank you Contend That explains a lot. I still have no idea who global is talking to, but I figured that was not as important as what he was trying to say. I am going to go back and reread those three chapters together. I have read 13 and 14 together but not 12-14. I know I had to read Romans in one sitting because it moved as a fabulous letter and explained so much to me on how people get involved in sin not realizing that there is a pattern, kind of like in the Casting Crowns song, a slow fade. Anyway, I worked last night and am off to a meeting and then bed. Be blessed all who enter and all who love the Lord. Signed, The child who Jesus loves very, very much. |
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contend4thef8th
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1 Corinthians 13? Calmwhisper, when you read 1 Corinthians 13 make sure you read it as Paul intended. Read 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 as a unit, not separately. 1 Cor 12 is the Spiritual gifts, 1 Cor 13 the motive and attitude using the gifts, 1 Cor 14, how to use the gifts in church. Paul wants us to exercise our gifts with love for others. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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For calmwhisper Don't worry if you cannot understand globalgospel. I am a pastor, and I can't understand him. I don't want to. Let's just say his thoughts and ideas are way, way, way out there with the UFO lady, of whom, thinks the anti-christ is coming riding UFOs. |
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calmwhisper
said:
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Thank you Global, thank you. It was very kind of you to lower it a bit to my level. I still am digesting a lot of what you wrote because you go into detail I am a little bit, lets say to be nice to myself, less informative on. I know God will reveal all things as I study, but during these times when so may people are trying to do so many different things with the Gospel, I find myself afraid that I might follow the wrong person on some information that seems according to the scriptures right. I am so blessed to have some really wonderful people to help teach me. I find myself crying out to God more and more because I don't want to ever turn my heart and harden it to the ways that even seem false. I have been told if I don't believe in what happened in Lakeland I am not walking with God and by others if I do believe in it I am not walking with God. God forbid if I say I am praying for TB. All I want personally is to walk with God. I dont want to gain the whole world and loose my soul. I am for the first time happy and I am just not willing to give it up. So, I will study to show myself approved even if I am not too clear on what it means. How long did it take for you get to this point where you blow peoples minds with your knowledge? My pastor is like you in a way, but he talks to me on my level and makes me feel so smart at times, especially if I get it right. Thank you again. Now for the risk taker in me: Thank you God for the precious people who are so willing to share their knowledge with me at the level I am at. Father I don't know where Todd is at with you, but I do know where I am at with you, could you bring him to that level? Could you let him experience the awesomeness of repentance, your restorative love and your peace that you so lovingly gave to me through your Son, Jesus', sacrifice. As far as Rick Joyner Father, he scares me. He doesn't think he needs help and is right in all things and that scares me. Be his help Father. Be my help Father. Show forth your love and deliver him before pride becomes his downfall. Keep Lee safe and give him Your peace. Father, most of all, keep me from being the mouth of the lion that would devour, but give me the wisdom of a serpant that would know the tactics of satan and when to get out of the way, and the gentleness of the dove that would light on people and whisper of your love, your power and your beautiful forgiveness. I ask this for me, for Todd Bentley, for Rick Joyner and for anyone else who would want to claim it for themselves. In your precious name I pray Jesus. Thank you. Amen. Signed, The child who Jesus loves very, very much. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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"better way" use of gifts One chapter only 'at a time' can be a little confusing. Especially for new believers and who have been taught that way. Let the Holy Spirit combine I Cor. 12-14 to help make better sense of this subject. The 'middle' chapter, only fits, if you understand that the Corinthians also were mostly new believers and yet they all came short in "no" gifts. To the best of our ability this means (even in Greek originals written) they had "giftings" poured out upon them all. But, they (being new, and young in the faith) abused these gifts in using them in a 'unloving' way , even amongst each other in gatherings for Church. Are any of you mature enought to know for sure that God thinks TB 'types' always use their giftings in a 'unloving' way (including, i.e.. Lakeland)? If you are, then you also would know for sure that "LOVELESS" tongues, et al, "will cease" when the "PERFECT" has come (and not continue believing what is commonly taught ,even by the cults, that the gifts (which cannot be recalled once given), including tongues, will cease? You see, the cults (who have not used gifts in the "love of God" , OR have never received giftings by the Holy Spirit in the first place) have proposed this doctrine of cessationism all the way beyond the death of the last Apostle, also to even when Jesus comes back. You see, they truly believe 'their jesus' has not finished His work on this planet and will be coming back to walk this earth again and finish His work still left undone HERE (and they add, that when HE comes to finish the work HERE He sets out to do, THEN all tongues speaking will cease, along with all knowledge, ALL words of knowledge, etc., et al). Paul, however, made it clear (seen only if you ignore the numbers of the chapters not used when first written to these Corinthians) that "speaking in tongues" must be maintained 'IN LOVE'. If not, they are like children who speak still as children only, who have no concept of 'growing up' in love, 'growing' into 'charity' use of God's giftings. Paul himself had 'grown up' ,and no longer spoke "as a child" in "loveless tongues". When the Lord comes by His Archangel AND the Lord's Angel, and the trump of God, then all children not yet grown up in the faith, IN LOVE will have their giftings not yet being used in charity, suddenly CEASE. When children, and those remaining young in the faith, one does not care whether their eternity is being planned for separation from all "the unrighteous still". But as one grows in the faith, and has giftings being used IN LOVE, and yet sees all around them others using their giftings IN LOVELESS ways, they will also, like Paul, long to be 'taken out of HERE' in that "highest calling" (initial rapture) and away, separated from those who remain not only having fallen asleep, but did so maintaining wrinkle, spot, even as a child still. Since many found out early in life, people can backslide and fail in their determinations to never leave their salvation. How does this happen? Just one way is to become 'overconfident of our depth' of 'beginning' love for HIM !!! |
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calmwhisper
said:
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HUH? and Thank you. Global gospel, all I can say is HUH? If becoming mature in Christ means I have to talk over everyones head just to be heard, I would rather stay young. I have no idea what you are talking about. I hope you did not take anything I said as an insult, because it was just a question wanting clarification. I know I am not dumb. I will ask God to explain it to me. Thank you Jeremiah's tears for explaining it more fully to me. I love the word of God and a lot of times I spend more time just figuring out one verse than an entire chapter, but I am learning to not take things one verse, but a chapter at a time. I am becoming like my pastor advised, a detective to discover the mysteries of God. You have helped me. I never want to loose this fire, but I never want to be as foolish as Todd Bentley either. So I guard my heart so much that I think I miss out on some things. I asked God to make me into a risk taker as I spent most of my life being afraid due to incest through a member of my family who was also a pastor at the church I attended. A big mess that God has saved me and healed me from. I am ready to take risks, but not the kind I have read and heard about. Thank you so much for helping me with 1 Corinthians. I pray it over my life daily to be not only Lover of God but a Lover of all He created. Signed, a child who Jesus loves very, very much. |
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Jeremiahs Tears
said:
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When we meet Jesus face to face Hi Calmwhisper, You are young in the Lord but praise God you are on fire for Him! To give a slightly more informed look at 1 Corinthians 13. 8. Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10. But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. Verse 10 says, "when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away." Then verse 12 tells us what that perfect is... Jesus ... when we meet Him face to face then we will be in our glorified bodies and will not need these gifts any more. Isn't that wonderful? Praise the Lord! This 5 minute video goes into more detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=related |
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Globalgospel
said:
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"insult" (an 'act' or 'remark which offends') The Apostle Paul went on from the 'Third Heaven' , yes on into "Paradise" (where he heard things "unlawful" for him to "speak" HERE on this earth. He is also the one who wrote in I Cor. 13 that "loveless tongues" will cease, etc., et al. He shows the 'Christian' that required "better way" than continuing in "loveless tongues" (for that which is ONLY practiced in charity, which was UNLIKE the majority of the Church at Corinth, yet who "came short in no gift", however, were even proud, in all this, that even one of their leaders "had his father's wife" ,who at the same time also had "come short in no gifting" of the Holy Ghost. LOVE was the difference in motivations from within. Paul said the man's spirit was now so influenced by greasy grace teaching as he was now 'unsaved', even unaware of his pecarious condition, and that very congregation which was "proud" of their greasy grace doctrine allowing such wretched activity "that even the Gentiles would never allow to remain" even in their pagan gatherings, should 'put him out' and 'shun' so his 'spirit may be saved'. Yes, one can be gifted by the Holy Spirit, even be in leadership, and not continue to "walk in LOVE" still utilizing those 'gifts (which are NOT subject to repentence by God for having given unto them 'severly' as HE 'wills' to the believers in pentecost baptismS). This, Paul says (I Cor 13) will cease "when the PERFECT has come". When "the PERFECT has come"- this earth will be a "lake of fire" , and anyone found still speaking in "loveless tongues", et al, will cease doing so HERE on this planet (that's for sure) AND when, and IF they await a 'next life' resurrection ABOVE, they will cease also any LOVELESS TONGUES, et al., one way or another. It's that 'other' way God deals with believers which the 'backslider' should NOT take as an "insult", just as one reads the Old Testament and does NOT take the fact (as examples) the Israelites were swallowed up by the earth, found having 'backslidden', and to such a degree that they 'lost' out with God ! Instead, be grateful that God has a plan and purpose, to separate the righteous, from the wicked fairly. |
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calmwhisper
said:
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Globalgospel I think I am getting confused in what you last wrote. Who are you addressing? Everyone has different beliefs based on what they have been told or what God has shown them through His precious Holy Spirit. I am just wondering because it seems that you left out the one thing that God through His precious Holy Spirit showed me just this afternoon. It is from 1 Corinthians 13. Prophesy, tongues, and knowledge will fail, cease, and vanish away. When I read this, I felt the Holy Spirit asking, when those who kept these things as their only value of their relationship with Me, what do they have left? It goes on to say when that which is perfect is come (when asking the Holy Spirit, love..perfect love casts out all fear), then that which is in part (prophesy, tongues and knowledge) will be done away with. Now, keep in mind I have only been saved by Grace for almost a year, May 5 will be a year, and I am a new student so I have only my simple limited learning, but I think I am right. All of these things that have been going on, miracles, signs, wonders, prophesy, and tongues will all cease, but Love must be left. Love is what moved Jesus to lay down His life and Love must motivate us. I am a person who believes once saved always saved because I will not ever compromise my walk with God. He is very quick to correct me because I am very quick to heed Him. I would rather die than to sin against Him. I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I know not everyone is saved by grace, but one day they may be. There is still too much, in my humble opinion, time spent one what we disagree with about each other beliefs and not enough of loving in spite of others beliefs. I was raised AOG and when I was old enough, I ran. The judgmental attitudes and tones were to much to bear. Now, I love to listen to the older AOG preachers, the ones who loved God more than their opinions. Praise God, when I ran, I ran into His arms, 30 years later, but finally into His arms. As far as Mr. Bentley and Mr. Joyner, I am praying for them because they have no idea what God can do since they have put Him into their own box. He Spirit must call us to act soberly and staunch or it is not God. His Spirit must call us to act foolishly or it is not Him. He is bigger than that, wiser than that, His ways are higher than that, so I am going to leave it all up to Him. To me, when it is God, I can't help but Love someone in spite of themselves and their sin. I guess what I am saying, lets not make all this about difference of opinions and insults on belief and get back to Jesus and Him Crucified. After all, if we must be religious about it, Passover is this Sunday and Easter the next. Signed, the child whom Jesus loves very, very much. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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what is REAL "greasy grace" in these last days The REAL question the Bible presents us (especially now in these last of the last days of this planet) IS: Clearly have you ever let YOUR "bones"- have "fire"- in them (as the Old Testament SAINTS had happen to them many years ago). "Fire-in-my-bones", and it's subtitle on "greasy grace", is not complete without identying REAL "greasy grace" HERE. That's reserved for those who have absolutely NO "fear of the Lord" and, are either 'athiests', 'agnostic', OR so called 'Christian' APOLOGISTS having never allowed the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE into their 'hearts', or 'lives', AND BELIEVE IN SALVATION as coming from some type 'slick' forensic Heavenly type 'lawyer' in Heaven who has forever and for all eternity simply 'gotten them off the hook' as to their own sin and has "appeased their God" so that their own sin will be not dealt with in 'his' anger (as all the other gods, after all, require also). This, coupled along now with "once saved always saved" (in this manner of forensic 'off the hook' salvation 'forensic' courtroom style) leads the 'still fooled' into 'thinking' they can take all kinds of 'pot shots', trying to 'kill' by 'letter' where the SPIRIT comes to 'give LIFE', at those who are experiencing an 'Old Testament type' "fire-in-their-bones" still being offered for TODAY by the HOLY SPIRIT OF COVENANT. This still is brought by those 'angels of FIRE' sent to minister (who also were present at Mt. Sinai, even also on that famous 'day of Pentecost' celebration of LAW many years later). They (these particular angels) are clearly 'sent" by "God" for to minister for them "who are the heirs of salvation" (even to those who are ALSO "to be" those 'heirs of salvation'). People still smug in their 'self' only, self righteous BONES of this flesh and body HERE on this planet have alot still to learn still about God and His "baptism with fire". Yes, we grant these apologists their "baptism in water" , and for the purposes of public "repentence", but as John (baptist) said: "the One coming AFTER me", which clearly refers to the HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE (since Jesus was NOT "after him", but was 'along side' him when he said this statement before going to his reward). Initial baptism makes only an 'apologist' statement of faith in 'repentence' toward a 'future' receiving of Messiah into their own hearts and lives FUTURE still. BaptismS with the HOLY GHOST and FIRE (who has come to this Earth now and with all HIS angels with HIM) first must burn up the pride and arrogance within those 'apology' person's 'own bones' BEFORE ever being able to penetrate their 'innermost being' ("hearts") on FIRE. Clearly "greasy grace" people DO NOT YET understand what the Holy Ghost is doing in today's 'revivals', nor in these last days 'catch' within these 'last call' nets toward TRUE eternal SALVATION and not just 'creedal' heady, mental assents toward God's salvation plan which even the demons still believe but are clearly not saved either. As to all you 'pundits' who have never 'entered in' beyond the Holy Spirit of "Conviction" (and to most of you who have not yet even experienced this 'initial' move of God on hearts, lives today) keep in mind that God has sent not only the HOLY Spirit of Conviction but has also sent HERE the HOLY Spirit of COVENANT and of PROMISE (in which the latter two Spirit of God moves upon 'hearts and lives' of individuals are known as FIRST-O.T. "bones on fire", SECOND-N.T. "hearts on fire".... |
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Jeremiahs Tears
said:
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Rick Joyner - church of altered states Davidsdance entered a youtube address that did not go the intended page, but I found it for those who really wanted to see it. It is titled: Rick Joyner - church of altered states, and the address is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coVQxfpuBTQ |
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phillipps2
said:
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Thank you! Thank you for a clear and honest look at this tangled web. What a shame that any examination of sin is called self-righteous judgment. Restoring the sinner is one thing but enabling him is another. We pray that Rick realizes how far off track he has gone before it is too late. |
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anthony
said:
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... Now we know from Rick and Todd that it was all down to burnout or being out of touch with God because of the pressure of revivalThat's a relief i was thinking it was silly old sin! |
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davidsdance
said:
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Go here for "restoration'? Bring on the monkeys and their business...and I am not talking about the folks that are the participants...many of them are just being decieved as I was once was. God help them www.youtube.com/watch?v=coVQxf... youtube. This is where Todd Bentley has gone for "restoration"??? Rick Joyner and company does not adhere to the same Jesus, the same scripture, as I and many reading this do. This is not the presence of the God that created the universe and sent His son to die in our place so that we may have etrnal life. This is DECEPTION...this is controlling a crowd with the power of the soul and flesh, that always always opens the door to deceiving spirits. Sick stuff, from deluded, self centered false leaders. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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"imajinations into the supernatural? Charisma's Daily Devotional (R.T.Kendall beginning today Friday especially) and the other three Daily Devotionals. and even all good devotionals everywhere seem to deal with that subject of today's (Friday) as to the greater Bibilical subject as it applies to the 'charismatic' especially in these 'last of the last days' of our lives upon this planet. IF the apologists here sought out are majoring in this (Fri. Devotional) subject when writing as to "imaginations" unto "supernational" as to 'charismatic' manifestations UNDER THE UMBRELLA (BIBLICAL "CHARITY"?) as applied in MINISTRY, only then can this "greatest of all motives" as to "gifts" be also properly discussed... |
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Robingael
said:
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Believers Beware I have watched the latest Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson "update" on the supposed "restoration" process. Once again, the entire problem underlying TB's adultery, drunkenness, deceit and violence is not being addressed. It cannot be addressed by these false "leaders" because they are all on the same page with their new-age "mental adaptation through imagination into the supernatural " (thank you Caryl Matriciana... carylmatrisciana.com... for your succinct definition) Nothing that was being said had any substance whatsoever. Bill Johnson has not changed at all from his original humanistic diatribe that was spewed out at Lakeland in defense of TB, replete with a comlpete absence of discernment. None of these people can be taken seriously until they turn away and recognize their own involvement with the realm of lying spirits, their own misapplication of scripture to what they say is the Holy Spirit, and their self centered, forceful application of their own soul power. Their arrogance and sophistry is though deceiving a good deal of the church body...believers, wake up. Find out for yourself what the scripture has to say about the character and nature of God. I have read enough of Bill Johnson's literature to know he is a master of subtle deceit as to what the scripture is really saying about our relationship to God, and how we are to be intimate with Him. He introduces "techniques" ... which is "mind science"... to supposedly bring us closer to hearing from God...but what is actually happening is an opening up of oneself to the spirit realm of fallen spirits...the "psychic" realm where lying deceiving spirits are masked in a religious veneer. I was in all this trash many years ago...been there done that. As I have posted here before, I am in no way "against the gifts"...as God has given me many prophetic dreams and words of knowledge for others in the past, all of which were 100%. God has prescribed a way for us to be intimate with Him and only His way will be the correct way for the gifts of the spirit to be realized. To even suggest we can be "schooled" in a "supernatural training program" is pure garbage. That is backwards...twisted...from God's prescribed way of knowing Him. The gifts and the supernatural will FOLLOW when we seek Him...His Way...and the rest will follow in the order He prescribes. The manipulators that teach others to manipulate will draw people into what can be the great deception that is coming upon the earth...and the anti-christ system with it's one world government. There is so much covetousness and idolatry tied up with what these false teachers spew, it appeals to those who are immature and still bamboozled by the sensational. I know of several seasoned intercessors in my own neighborhood that are alarmed about churches that are embracing and promoting this sewage. They were delivered out of it, and now have great fruit in their lives and are a blessing to those who seek Christ Jesus and Him only. ... You have magnified Your word above all Your name. Psalm138:2 |
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lastblast
said:
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... I am not surprised in the least that ungodly men are uplifted. The same thing is going in most of the churches today. If pastors lift themselves up (and they are adulterers themselves), why wouldn't they lift up the unsaved adulterer who has similar values? I personally find it quite ironic that many holiness/repentance preachers are calling others from sin/worldliness, yet they too have forsaken the wife/husband of their youth and have "moved on" to a "Better suited, more "christian" spouse.............There are MANY in the professing church who are living in a state of adultery and they cannot even see it nor the hypocrisy of their message to those "other" people in sin........may the Lord give many others the eyes to see their own sin so that the message of repentance would be believable and lived out in truth before the hearers........... http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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rpt
said:
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Double Standards... Most pastors exalted or continue to exalt John McCain, Newt Gingrich, David Vitter, and various others, all admitted adulterers, as national leaders and role models. Certainly Charisma took this position in the 2008 election. I daresay few would now criticize Rush Limbaugh, now three times divorced, because RL is untouchable in the Republican world. Does this have any relevance? Does it matter? |
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Globalgospel
said:
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"outragious"? The english word "outrage" implies "shocking violence" or cruelty, "gross" violations of morality or decency, "a profound" insult or "injury", and "heedless" of authority or "decency" acts in "atrocious" behavior.....even as unto "rape", incestial behaviors, et al...... So Paul (I Cor.) could have used that term to that leader bragged upon 'by the congregation' as to the grace of God even covering over such "outragious" behavior? Yet, no wonder the Pastor taking on the "restoration" of a newly married couple responds to the usages of such terms applied HERE, and general tone of 'reportinig' as basic unfairness (especially when not only most of the congregation and former staff of this continuing entity "freshfire" not only have taken responsibility for the "ex" oversight, but those elders of the "newly wedded" couple have not authority in Western Canada, nor their courts systems regardless whether N.Car., nor in W.Canada)as to the "ex" and children of both. Besides this, these "elders" have this couple as new regular parishioners besides being also "newly married". Now lets get a grip, lets be more sensible in all this! This is not a comparison 'case' to the 'case' in Corinth's 'greasy grace' |
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lastblast
said:
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... This is not a "newly married" couple. This is a couple who are living in ADULTERY according to Jesus' own words...........and Paul's. Jessa has another woman's husband. The adultery they are PRESENTLY commiting nowhere in scripture is shown to nullify Todd and Shoanna's covenant---in the eyes of God. As for the elders..............it is a sad thing to see them teach contrary to what the Lord God Himself has spoken, but as He has warned us, so it shall be in the last days, when many will desire to have their ears tickled in order to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.................they do not repent because they "have a form of godliness, yet deny the power thereof"...............they are those whom Jesus says are "workers of iniiquity". I pray those who are caught in this net as well as those here who uplift their ungodliness repent before it is too late. Those who misrepresent the Holiness of God, believing they can mock Him in their sin and redefine sin as they see fit, believing because they are workers of "miracles" they will be raptured out of here, I am afraid they will be in for a RUDE awakening........... http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Justified? The term "Justified by faith" was the slogan of the 'reformed' attempting to 'reform' (as catholics) the catholic faith. My main concern of "greasy grace" as it applies to this 'thread' before it comes off this 'spool' - IS: The "Elders" have been too influenced by the catholic (even 'reformed' catholic) and by "calvinisms" to not continue mistakes. Greasy Grace comes out of a misunderstanding of what "Justified" actually means in the Scriptures. It does NOT have meaning that "we are justified in, and by faith, in judging others" such as the 'reformed' claim God Himself will be soon conducting a 'forensic type' courtroom like judgment of men based upon His anger needing to be "appeased". Most people writing into this 'thread' also come from this background of 'catholicisms'. First, the facts are: that one CAN suffer loss of their 'eternal salvation' (i.e. that church 'leader' whose spirit needs salvation all over again due to sin which even the pagan world would not allow). Second, God is NOT going to Judge people in order to have His anger appeased (as is the case of the many 'judgmental' on this 'thread' obviously in their own anger). Third, the term "Justification by faith" Biblically and consistently refers to God's Justification which we carry out (of His sending His Only Unique Son to die for us and for our sins). Since we are ambassadors for "His Justification" we (by the faith of the Son of God) are "adopted" into the "Family of God". In this "Family" we all have differences of opinion (like all 'families' also have). We are NOT 'justified' in forcing our own unique 'opinions' unto 'forensic courtroom' type of judgments on other persons. However, we are called to exercise in the "Judging of Angels" as to Scripture (these 'downloads' they are bringing to the minds of our greater, yet newly "Family members" in the faith. Also, when these current "Elders" (now assigned to this so-called "greasy grace" case) announced the 'newly released' process having begun, they immediately required that the objects of "resorations" (newly married) first ADMIT they were in sin mainly due to their premature and said "hasty" marriage ("remarriage"). THIS IS WRONG! There is NO such thing as "premature 'legitimate' legal consumations of marriages" in the Gentile World of today (unless one or both are underage). Only the Jews (of the Tribe of Judah) were required to have the "priests" decide if the 'couple' must wait a certain period of time before "consumations" of that "marriage covenant agreement"(i.e.Mary & Joe). Lets be sensitive to what Paul in Romans 2 points out about 'JUDGMENTS by faith'. HE SAYS "you WHO JUDGE", first of all- "do YOU do the same things" (or, would you do the same THINGS if in similar situations) OR, also ("have you not done the same? also in similar situations?"). Let just let "the ELDERS" and this newly marriage couple 'work out their own salvations with fear and trembling' WHILE WE ALSO DO THE SAME! |
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justifiedbyfaith
said:
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Rocks In The Head Sometimes people who purport to follow Christ can be downright stupid. In attempting to whitewash Todd Bentley’s lies, fraud and adultery, a number of sycophants have used the Scripture: ‘Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.’ This is abusing the Scriptures because Jesus has never spoken these words in the spirit of excusing sin. Instead, he said it to condemn those who had been guilty of similar gross immorality while publicly condemning the one woman. Imagine today if a punk broke the law and stole a car and crashed through a supermarket window and then grabbed a toddler to use as a human shield to thwart arrest. The cops are yelling at him to release the child or they will shoot. People are screaming abuse at him for using the kid to shield himself. They are calling him all kinds of names and shaking their fists in anger because the toddler is actually the child of one of the supermarket cashiers. And the punk’s response to all this: ‘Which of you has no sin let him fire the first bullet?’ How utterly ridiculous do you think this is! If we simply use Jesus’ words to whitewash every immoral and criminal activity, imagine the chaos and anarchy our society would find itself in. Every pervert, murderer, liar, extortionist, rapist and thief would be at our door. Someone tried to equate Todd Bentley’s gross misconduct with lying and argued that if we were still lying, then who’s to stop Todd Bentley from fornicating with his partner in adultery. This kind of logic utterly blows my mind. Those who are lying should stop lying. Those who are stealing should stop stealing. Those who are sleeping with women who are not their wives should stop sleeping with women who are not their wives. And those of us who are not doing these things have a right to yell at those who are doing this things to STOP. Todd Bentley has been caught lying, cheating on his wife, forsaking his marriage vows, abandoning his kids, having an affair with his baby-sitter, making up stories of raising the dead, writing weird articles about angels called Emma, boozing, mutilating his body with piercings and tattoos, etc. He has to STOP. Rick Joyner, Bill Johnson and Jack Deere need spiritual deliverance. They have forgotten their first love, the Lord Jesus Christ, and instead fallen in love with a seducing spirit. They cannot see right from wrong and cannot get out of the situation themselves. Christians, we need to pray for these men! If we don’t, they might end up being serial liars, adulterers, blasphemers and substance abusers like Todd Bentley. |
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me
said:
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Lee Grady Double Speaker Double Hearted and False Doctrine Spreader ... Lee Grady, you are one big hypocrite. You feature Matt Sorger as a columnist for you magazine, yet you write these articles denouncing false doctrine. On one hand you promote false doctrine, on the other you denounce it. You are double tongued and double hearted, fella. You really irk me with your wishy washiness. Matt Sorger's good friend is Joshua Mills, the biggest liar in the pulpit today, even bigger than Todd B. Joshua Mills lies about visitations and has the cheapest magic tricks out there. He is a fake and a phoney. Yet Matt is his good friend, and Matt writes for your magazine. I had hope when I read your articles but now realize you are just playing a game. May God rebuke you, you hypocrital magazine. Hypocrites you are. Matt Sorger is a spreader of the gold dust and nonsense. I am going back to never trusting Charisma again. You are worse than Rick Joyner. At least he takes a stance and isn't double speaking. Below is from Matt Sorger: SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM MATT I believe this year’s Glory, Signs and Wonders Conference is going to be a HOLY SPIRIT EXPLOSION!!! We have two of my favorite people coming; Prophet James Goll and glory carrier Joshua Mills. I feel so strongly that this gathering is going to be very significant and powerful as we move to a new level of God’s glory and anointing. I am encouraging everyone to make every effort possible to be in attendance. There is going to be a powerful impartation of God’s glory and power into your life. I also am very happy to announce that I will be re-ordained by Prophet James Goll. As a ministry and also personally I feel I am moving into a new season. I was first ordained into the ministry nine years ago while serving as a pastor. Over the last seven years I have traveled full time as a revivalist functioning in the evangelistic and prophetic ministry. I know there is still more to come and much more vision God has placed in my spirit. I know God’s full design will be fulfilled in His perfect timing. I wanted to extend a personal invitation to everyone who has been blessed by MSM to come and be a part of this special time. The re-ordination will take place during the conference weekend as the Holy Spirit leads. This is going to be a special time for myself and MSM. I would love for you to come and be a part. Matt’s Spiritual Board of Advisors consists of Dr. Rodney Howard-Browne, Prophet James Goll, Apostle Dutch Sheets, Robert Stearns, and Che Ahn. You also are not going to want to miss what God has been doing through James Goll and Joshua Mills. Below is a brief excerpt from some of Joshua Mill’s recent meetings. Come expecting to receive your miracle, breakthrough and power impartation of God’s glory! Earlier this year, as Joshua Mills was ministering, a beautiful and fragrant supernatural oil began to flow from his hands, and it continued to increase and drip throughout the service. Joshua Mills received several words of knowledge including a re-creative miracle taking place on a woman’s heart. He then anointed and laid hands on... |
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Globalgospel
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Something OTHER than TB We should make Biblical statements of 'comparisons' with fear and trembling (whether as good comparisons or bad). The "FACTS" are that the comparison MADE HERE to a "man HAVING his own father's WIFE" (which even the unbelieving Gentiles would'nt allow) was the one who was "turned over to Satan" (that his human spirit having lost his eternal salvation might get it back?). DOES ANYBODY HERE TRULY BELIEVE THEY SHOULD HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO TURN ANYONE OVER TO SATAN? AND ESPECIALLY WHOM THEY HAVE NO DIRECT, NOR ELDERSHIP CONTACT? AND WHOM THE DIRECT ELDERSHIP (AND ONLY THE VERY DIRECT ELDERSHIP) WOULD BE THE ONES TO DETERMINE IF A PERSON UNDER THEIR ELDERSHIP HAD DONE A DEED (WHICH WAS SO UNCOMMON THAT EVEN THE GENTILE UNBELIEVERS WOULD NEVER TOLLERATE, WHATSOEVER, SUCH AN INCESTIAL, AND RUTHLESS DEED?) |
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calmwhisper
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Barbara, a response to your comment Barbara. I have grown so tired of these comments on here that I no longer want to hear what anyone has to say about Todd Bentley. It has become who can give the bigger and nastier comment. Yours, however, was a breath of fresh air. Amen!! You might find it odd coming from a twice divorced woman. You see, mine is a situation I could not control. My first husband over 9 years of marriage had more than 15 affairs. At the last one, I closed the door and locked it because he moved to another state and moved in with her. I spent more time feeling single in my marriage than married. I have three sons, the oldest is autistic. Life was so hard. Many people began to tell me I should remarry. After 7 years of waiting for my ex to straighten up, I met a man and spent time with him as a friend and then was betrothed over a 5 year period. When we married, two weeks into it, he rejected me as his wife, began to physically abuse my boys and Me. I separated from him 3 times in 14 months of marriage. I begged him to get help, but to him I was the problem. The pastors of two different churches and one friend of his tried to get him to get help, but to no avail. He told one of the pastors he was just married to me so I would take care of him. He did not love me nor did he want me. My pastor told me to divorce him immediately. I was crushed. Over the past 4 years I have come to realize I may not be marrying material. Then one day I realized I was living by works and not by Grace. I surrendered my life to Jesus and you know what, I all of a sudden did not want to remarry nor to be involved with another man. I am marrying material, but only to my beloved Jesus. I also realized that I am worth being in covenant with. Thank you for writing what you did, for bring to light the fact of lack of covenant in the world today. My children and I know how hard it is when the covenant is one sided and yet I and my children were shunned by almost every church we were in. Some more silently than others, but nonetheless shunned and given no recourse of help. I had to leave church to find Jesus and I found him. Now I am in a church where I am cherished as a member of the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. You have shone a light on a fact no one wants to admit to. I want to make a call back to covenant relationships. Todd Bentley is a discussion of the past, lets get back to our covenant with God and with those we took vows to. My first husband is still alive, but has not turned his heart towards God and only turns his heart towards his children and even towards me when it suits him and then turns away again. Barbara, I applaud you and I so wish there were more women like you to teach the younger how to love their husbands rightly and to raise the children rightly. One more thing. My children had all decided they wanted nothing to do with church because of how we were treated, but God has intervened. My autistic son announced to his classmates that he loved Jesus and was not satan's friend any longer. My middle child is now going to church after joining the Air Force. My youngest is still fighting it, but is coming around. He will talk about the goodness of God with me at home. For those who would want to still talk about Todd even to the point of blaming him for my trouble, which I was warned by God to stay away from Lakeland. Todd can't be blamed, my ex-husband can only be partly blamed and satan cannot be blamed at all, this damage of shunning and rejection through judging was done mainly at the hands of bible believing and teaching christians who only wanted their opinions heard. Good Job, but not good enough. God is still in control and He will judge everyone because he knows the heart. My last entry because I am not interested in Todd Bentley. I will let Abba Father take care of him and this group, however, I am not stupid. My radar is up and I will be totally aware if he comes back without proper repentance and restoration and I will do like before, not go see him or listen to him. |
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Globalgospel
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Paul (II Thes) All you 'flippers' and 'floppers' caught in the last days "nets" of revival out there WHO are trying to 'sort out the bad from the good'even 'before the time', Listen Up to the Words of Jesus Himself before He left this planet for good. The Holy Spirit of PROMISE has come to teach and disciple all 'caught' and still 'wantabe' considered 'the caught' from these last of the last days of revival for this planet. DO NOT FOLLOW AFTER THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE ANOINTED TO TEACH AGAINST REVIVAL AND STIR UP FALSE FEARS AGAINST REVIVAL WITHIN THE 'LAST DAYS CATCH' ,AND JUDGE with forensic judgment claims they have received from God, yet 'before the time' and 'before even the angels even begin to sort out the catch'. Paul to Thess. who had alarmists even signing Paul's name then (as some also try now in 'pulling rank' on the newly caught) reviewed in his letter to the Thes. what our (his also as a pentecostal) Master had clearly previously stated: 'Do not concern yourselves as to false signs and wonders UNTIL "AFTER" the "man of sin" has come, and has been revealed, then again, later would another come in these FINAL last days, then ONLY be revealed 'in his time' also. In between these times (early rain-latter rain) there are NO false signs and wonders to worry about having gone after (as for the pentecostal). The early Church pentecostals fled their scene timely when that 7 years leading up to 70 A.D. had it's own 'early rain' revealings of 'anti-christ' AND the latter rain pentecostals now (being not of the ethnic Judean marriage to God) will need NOT to flee Land from anywhere. Why? Because the "rapture" (Paul's First Letter to Thes.) will take care of all the 'latter' matters. All those left, however, just as those who left soon after this letter was written, and were left behind and in that mix of those Jewish Wars of that time suffered greatly. Now, we have another 'type' of anti-christ who will soon declare himself to be Allah, this time standing in that golden dome (but he won't last very long, no not even with those Moslem 'hosts' of the Middle East of today). Until that happens, we should be looking and watching (as pentecostals) for our Bridegroom to wisk us away in our 'spiritual bodies' (leaving only the sceptical and trouble makers 'in the flesh' who fight hard AGAINST last days "nets catchings" and especially against the "joy" of one's pentecostal salvation in baptismS with our Holy Spirit of PROMISE now HERE). Not knowing that God has sent to the 'fleshy' this strong delusion which even they (as they believe in themselves as "the elect"') WILL BE THE ACTUAL DECEIVED. Those, however, who are watching, looking up for their Bridegroom's Angelic 'midnight call' to "come up hither" need not pay any attention to the apologists of the 'one baptism' catholic and 'one baptism only' catholic 'reformed' movements WHO ARE TODAY's FALSE ALARMISTS (and just like in the Early Church) as Judiasers solely to gather a following after themselves and away from last days true pentecostal "nets" gatherings from truely pentecostal 'revivals' which have 'signs and wonders' following. These apologists have NO signs and wonders following BECAUSE they are not happy, not true pentecostals, not true worshipers (Jews), not true praisers (Jews), never were happy 'charismatics' even, in fact, have never experienced any baptismS beyond John's 'initial' baptism of 'initial' repentences. This water baptism is not sufficient for to be called as the Bride of the Anointed One. It, however, does give hope EVEN to the apologists that the Atonement of the Lamb still works, but ONLY for the truly repentant 'caught'. |
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lastblast
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... Jesus says, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" And Paul taught this: "And this know thou, that in the last days there shall come perilous times, for men shall be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, evil-speakers, to parents disobedient, unthankful, unkind, without natural affection, implacable, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, not lovers of those who are good, traitors, heady, lofty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of piety, and its power having denied; and from these be turning away, for of these there are those coming into the houses and leading captive the silly women, laden with sins, led away with desires manifold always learning, and never to a knowledge of truth able to come" What do we know from the scriptures: many "wolves" will come in among the sheep. They will "appear" to follow God---doing all kinds of 'miracles' and wonders "in His name", but they are not His. They are those spoken of who seek after fleshly things...........lovers of money, boasters, without self control, truce(covenant) breakers, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God---"workers of iniquity" Jesus calls them. Jesus says they will be cast away from Him, though they come saying, "Lord, Lord".............. If I were one who could be labelled "worker of iniquity"---one who does not care for the laws of God---I would be very worried about my eternal destination. Those who chuck away their spouses, committing adultery and causing their spouses to commit adultery when they remarry............I would worry about my eternal destination. Paul tells the brethren, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" Those who teach you CAN practice unrighteousness(towards a spouse or any other) and STILL be a GOD follower/disciple/minister, are false teachers. I would fear for their eternal well-being. We are called to encourage each other to well doing----to the end..............for how we "end"this race is what is most important, not how we started the race. Blessings............ |
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anthony
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... Loading this site is becoming more difficult,is it due to my computer or is it top heavy with ads. etc.? |
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contend4thef8th
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Glbalgospal is delusional.... Globalgospel, sadly, is delushional Bondslavenchrist said to Globalgospel, "Where did you get this idea from? This is NOT what the scripture says at all. WHo are you listening to? Do you honestly believe what you wrote here is the truth? Where do you see those words written?" 2 Thessalonians 2 9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Globalgospel
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Holy Spirit of PROMISE The Holy Spirit is on this planet today! Jesus is at the RH of our Father and His standing there making intercessions even for us. The Angel of the Lord is under the orders of the Spirit of PROMISE now HERE. Anyone caught interferring with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE now HERE runs the risk of 'sleeping early', even being 'plucked up BY THE ROOTS' ,without any hope of a future resurrections. Angels still administer unto Convictions (baptisms of repentence) Baptisms, also still administer unto Covenant (future privaledges of no condemnation in sure judgments coming) Baptisms, even also still administer unto PROMISE (ruling and reigning with Christ as His Personal Bride in His Comings to that Third Heaven and beyond in 'Paradise' with Him) Baptisms of Fire. The 'thief' (under conviction) said "if and when You should ever come into Your Kingdom, would you please just remember me?". Jesus answer his question: "from this moment (on), (yes) should you still be with Me in Paradise? "the answer is yes then" but is qualified- for the man must REMAIN asking Jesus to "remember him". A 'revivalist' brings people to the very least of saying (even though it does not look like God has a handle on all this evil and this world of sin, even letting the innocent dying cruel deaths, et al) "if and when YOU should EVER come into Your Kingdom"? Please, Please then "remember me?". Jesus came THAT the World (of peopleTHRU HIM) might be saved from this planet (having always been planned for destruction and lake of fire for the devil and his angels) with planning for only the rebellious angels left HERE. People, however, who co-operate with the devil AND his angels HERE, can certainly, in remaining accusatory (even as that other mocking thief who would not repent of his OWN obvious condition even unto his own death here on this planet). It's mostly still those 'Kingdom Now' people remaining angry at God who cannot repent of 'OWN grease' |
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contend4thef8th
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PTL Barbara.... Barbara said, "I have been married over 3 decades. You think it was easy? Oh my goodnes no!!! But we always stepped away from ministry and back into each other's arms and focused on the family when the times were tough. You can get divorced for adultery, and I personally believe for abuse. " PTL! Barbara, what you and your husband did is commendable. However it would be next to impossible for those with BIGGER ministries like TB, RJ, BH to do.. I think this is the reason why, the pressure of a mega church or mega ministry puts greater pressure on the leaders involved. As I mentioned in Lee's other story [No More Monkey Business], the pressure is on. Ministry takes priority. I hope nothing happens to RJ or BH, but if it does, it will be interesting to see what excuse is cooked up by them to remain in ministry AND keep their ministry. Another problem when a leader falls is the local church. It has a tendency to shoot their wounded, TB is not wounded. Look at Ted Haggard, banned from his church. The same church that banned him from his own home and state, for a time, and with little financial assistant. Will they ever allow him to reenter fellowship, something Paul said (i.e. God said) churches must do after a period of time? As for adultery, that can be forgiven, so no need for divorce unless one's spouse continuously commits it. Abuse? For sure a divorce, no sense in letting her or him suffer abuse at the hands of their spouse. Abuse by females to males is rising, the next 20 years may see a bigger increase. Let's see then how the church handles that. But which ever reason they divorce, adultery or abuse, Jesus and His bible make it clear, there is no room for remarriage. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Globalgospel
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greasy grace John Calvin tried to build the "City" of Geneva billing this secular city as God's Kingdom. He thought he could not lose his salvation (even by having his enemies put to death who questioned his authority in all this) especially thinking all the while he was doing God a favor in all his apologetics and militant 'institutes' of religious learning. He was a 'Balaamite' however, in both doctrine and practice and with his 'greasy grace' ONLY for all those within his so-called kingdom as the frozen chozen, while opposing any and all revivals outside his 'kingdom now' false concepts. This kind of .greasy grace, has God's attention still. As to leaders ALSO having marital, also personal problems, they have a cross to bear all of their own. God needs not all this so-called help in appeasings of anger. It's the 'greasy grace' of Balaam's doctrine advocates who are the people (like Calvin) of extreem anger needing appeasements (just like the lessor gods they used to serve before they came desiring to build that secular 'City of God' on this planet). The many frustrations of 'Kingdom Now' belief and practice has turned many toward 'greasy grace' Calvinistic practices, but the greatest of the 'greasy grace' people of today are those who do NOTHING toward revival, and soul winning, except attempts to 'kill' it ! |
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Barbara
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... The covenant is what is forgotten today. It is a generation of convenant breakers, who have forgotten that marriage is a type of Christ and the church. Todd and Arthur should have stayed married and worked it out. As Spirit-filled Christians in the ministry, you are without excuse! Divorce is NOT an option. Your first obligation is to your FAMILY! Why would Arthur bring 7 children into the world and not be a father and husband ABOVE running all over the world? Your CHARACTER speaks stronger to me than your ministry! Your first ministry is to your HOME both men and women! If you are neglecting your family, you are to step out of minsitry and go home to minister to them!! You need to work a regular job until those things are fixed! I have been married over 3 decades. You think it was easy? Oh my goodnes no!!! But we always stepped away from ministry and back into each other's arms and focused on the family when the times were tough. You can get divorced for adultery, and I personally believe for abuse. Other than that, you can work it out with counselors, pastors, family and friends and yes doctors helping you even getting the right meds if you need them. You made a VOW for BETTER or WORSE, RICHER or POORER, in SICKNESS or in HEALTH, and you will be tested in those areas.YES, all those areas. And then you will know what love is. God, family, church, work, etc. Get your priorities in "alignment" (the new buzz word) with God's word. I could care less about your "ministry." If you failed as a wife or husband, you have failed in my eyes in minstry already. When Peter's mother-in-law was healed of a fever, she immediately arose and "minstered" to them and that Greek word mean doing menial household chores. I could care less about how many people you claim to bring to Christ. If you loose your family, and your spouse, then who cares? You have lost everything! I watched TBN one night as they sat around with Arthur bragging on him, and making a huge deal about his minsitry and how SELF SACRIFICING he was in his ministry all those years. I do not care. Self-Sacrifince yourself for your family. That's what the BIBLE said. Men are to be servants, and LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES FOR THEIR WIVES but no, they will lay down their lives for a big movie or TV ministry. It's twisted. My spouse had laid down his life all these years, and our children have respect and honor for their father. They rise up and call me "blessed" and it's all because we worked it out. Now we are growing old together, and will be together until we die. Just as our vows said...UNTIL DEATH DO US PART. And our legacy to our children is....you can do it, because we did, with God's help. It's the best accomplishement in life. You can take all your money, wealth, ministry and good looks, but without honor, respect, love and going to church and being a family and taking care of each other, you have nothing. Somebody reading this now will work out your marriage because you know God is speaking to you. May God bless you and help you, strengthen you to be a covenant-keeper! |
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lastblast
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AZDean AZ, I will believe that Todd is in the process of GENUINE repetence when he divorces the woman he now is committing adultery with according to the Lord. That is step one towards believability................... |
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lastblast
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Global Global, All I can say is that your post condoning divorce and remarriage for "ministry" purposes is beyond disturbing. Paul VERY clearly admonishes the married to take care of each other............and says that we CHOOSE to marry, so that is our FIRST CALLING. For those who choose to serve God wholeheartedly, they choose to remain single, so their attentions are not divided. The Word of God tells us that we are not to be at odds with our "one flesh"..........if we are even our prayers are hindered. You say God does not care about divorce, but the "heart"..............God most certainly DOES care about covenant keeping in marriage, and He was clear in Mal. 2, even though one who forsakes their covenant may come to His altar in tears, He rejects them! Take heed the sin that you encourage in the "camp"................. |
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contend4thef8th
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For AZDean again.............. AZDean said, "And yet in this particular situation a process of restoration has only just begun. Why rush to make comment right now? Why not wait to see what happens? Why not talk to the people directly involved?" AZ, it was in the midst of this so-called restoration process that TB committed adultery again and married his 2nd wife and became a bigamist. RJ was caught off guard as many were. He is "submitting now" but not earlier. Do you think he's really going to change. Doubtful. He willfully sinned! |
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contend4thef8th
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For AZDean.................... AZDean said, "I agree with Lee that the attitude that roughly says the “end justifies the means” is a “perversion of biblical integrity”. But I do not agree with Lee’s point that since God can anoint “any man or woman with the Holy Spirit’s Power”, that means that God is only really looking for “vessels of honor that can carry that anointing with dignity, humility and purity”...Yes of course God is looking for purity and integrity. But he is also looking for who will go for Him. And that requires faith. " AZ, any true born again Christian would be willing to go and do what God wants. It does not mean they will "do it" but at least they are willing. For some unfanthomable reason God gives the the gifts to men and women. Men and women who are able if they are not careful, will fornicate, commit adultery, drink and get drunk, cheat, gamble, gay sex, etc. Yet, God knowing our future, whatever the outcome is, will still dispense these Gifts to us. If we abuse them and sin against Him, he never takes it back, like all of us would. The calling and gifts are permanet, BUT when a situation like TB's arrises, it does not mean TB and such are entitled to be restord to their original posistion and ministry. No scriptual support for that. BUT he can be useful at the grassroots level, in the local church. But not as a minister or leader (just yet). He can never be a church board member, as one of the requirements are, "to be husband of one wife." Todd has two now. So, how can he be a leader in a local church? As a cell leader, or bible study leader, or be a Deacon even. But ministry at the level he had before? Can't. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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... rahab said, "My question is do you people treat the divorced people in your church like this? My God, no wonder the wounded and hurting won't come near us. 50% or more of the church is divorced," It's a crying shame. Obviously, like the world we jump out of a bad situation instead of trusting God to make it better. However, it is possible for one of them to never, ever, want to try making it better. Sadly, that too happens. As for Charles Stanley, as long as he remains single and does not marry until his spouse dies he's fine, even despite that stupid statement of his. Besides, he never was a drunkard, adulterer (twice), bigamist, liar, etc. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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AZDean
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My different take I appreciate Lee Grady’s heart to rebuke the sin in our midst, to grieve over the harm and confusion brought to the church, and his desire to see leaders truly embrace biblical standards of character and integrity. I hear the cry of his heart. And I think God does too. Or perhaps it would be better to say that Lee has felt the heart of God on the travesty of sin that has abounded in the church for far too long and shows pitifully little indication of ever abating. Indeed, where are the ones who mourn what has become the church? Where are the ones who rend their hearts in tears and wailing? Where are the leaders who will confront sin for what it is – a horrendous blemish on what is meant to be a pure and undefiled bride? And yet. And yet in this particular situation a process of restoration has only just begun. Why rush to make comment right now? Why not wait to see what happens? Why not talk to the people directly involved? If we truly ever want to root sin out of the church, is Lee’s approach of a column written early on, with few facts and done from afar the way to do it? Thankfully, the leaders involved in Todd Bentley’s situation are NOT treating this issue lightly. Nor are they seeking to simply “nurse his wounds”, “ignore people he wounded”, or extend “greasy grace” to him. Or at least that’s what they say. Given that, it seems reasonable to give this process some time before groaning and venting one’s frustration in a national column. But alas there are deeper issues here. One is Lee’s discomfort with things that went on at Lakeland even before Todd’s fallout. Thus, when Lee says that “we charismatics still seem to have a habit of elevating gifting above character”, he’s not just referring to Todd’s character in regards to infidelity. He’s also referring to all the other controversial issues that happened at Lakeland and on which he has previously written. I agree with Lee that the attitude that roughly says the “end justifies the means” is a “perversion of biblical integrity”. But I do not agree with Lee’s point that since God can anoint “any man or woman with the Holy Spirit’s Power”, that means that God is only really looking for “vessels of honor that can carry that anointing with dignity, humility and purity”. Yes of course God is looking for purity and integrity. But he is also looking for who will go for Him. And that requires faith. Does that mean that Todd is indispensible? No. But it does mean that he is rare. Either he is a talented con-man, deceiver and liar. Or, he is an immature and perhaps tragic figure who has an incredible level of faith and willingness to put his faith on the line in a way that very, very few in the church do. That Lee appears to have been jaded by so many charlatans in the church that he doesn’t perceive the significance of faith, is to me a significant shortcoming on his part. Does God prefer to use someone who has abundant flaws but the faith few do? Or does He rather use someone who has impeccable character, and yet is unable to be used in many ways due to limited faith? My read of the Bible makes the answer pretty clear – at least to me. I see a God who is thrilled by faith when He sees it. A God who has filled scriptures with heroes of the faith. One who honors them greatly. And at the same time, He is a God who bluntly exposes their sin. Are we to tolerate sin? May it never be! But maybe. Just maybe. We should be thrilled by what thrills God. Think about it. |
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me
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to rahab's place Rahab, has Todd Bentley ever repented of lying to the masses about Emma, gold dust, translations back in time, oil stigmata, his sow-into-the-glory-for-more-glory doctrine, kicking a cancer patient in the stomach, getting supernatural character from angels thus bypassing sanctifcation through the Spirit, 3 translations in one day to Europe, Africa, and back in time, going to heaven and seeing Paul, who supposedly told him that he helped Paul write Hebrew, healings that never happened, and on and on and on. He has not, woman! You think he is a man of God and should be treated mercifully but you are talking out of emotions not the Holy Ghost. You see the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of holiness, and He guides us into truth, all truth, even truth about brothers or false brothers. If the fruit of Todd Bentley is lying, scamming, and fabricating stories in order to pump up his ministry, that tells me he is a wolf, not a brother to be restored. Since when do we restore wolfs? I know they do over in Ely Minnesota where there is a wolf rehabilitaiton center, or some zoos, but the church is to withdraw from the greedy, those who fornication, those who get drunk. The bible says stay away from those people. You mistake when you speak and blog most of the time, Rahab. I think you are insecure in your relationship with God because a secure Christian would realize that rebuke is love and it is health to the body. Todd Bentley has not repented of his lies and manipulations. He is a wolf playing a game, a con game. Will he talk on these Rick Joyner videos about Emma? How about going back in time? How about those angels that gave him supernatural character? Why didn't it work? I want to know. I want someone to ask him about these things and not let him get away with his lies. What exactly do you want to see? Bentley restored to the pulpit and lying to the masses again? Wake up. You are not hearing from God on this. Stop your flesh mercy party for the wolf. It is a stench in the Lord's nostrils. He did not die so the pulpit can be filled with lying, deceiving pimps. Shake the gold dust out of your ears and listen to the Spirit. Hear what He is saying: there is a wolf in your midst. Do not let him back out to prey on the weak-willed and young in Christ. I am all for restoring people. I know some ministers have been restored before. I have seen God turn around adulterous situations. But there was repentance before restoration. Todd Bentley has not repented for all his lies in the pulpit! All his gold digging! All his selling miracle handkerchiefs and lying on his website! His Emma going from female to male! His lies are a stench in the Lord's nostrils and he is not a man of God. He needs serious rebuke, not greasy restoration back into the pulpit. He needs to get a job and learn humility and patience. He needs serious lowliness. Not a free ride by Rick Joyner who is acting ridiculous about all this. Peter in the bible repented. Jesus restored him. Bentley has not repented. And he built his ministry on lies so take away the lies and what is left? Would Bentley really have gotten that famous had he not lied about all his supposed angelic visitations and translations? NO. The NAR preachers all have these wacky supernatural experiences but they are 99% lies. They sound real spiritual though so it boosts their ministry and resumes. It makes them seem like big spiritual giants. It is all a con. Wake up, woman. This is serious business here. The Lord said protect the sheep but you want to protect the wolf. It is a perversion. It is idolatry. You love Bentley more than Jesus. Wake up. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Arthur Blessitt movie week Since the movie was about to come out, thought it not appropiate to introduce this subject to this thread when it FIRST was posted, however, the 'religious' have introduced it (as usual in their gossip and untruths, even jeolousies and insecurities of finances themselves). The movie most likely will not say anything about Sherry's divorcing of Arthur. Just as this article begins with somewhat of a misleading inference that the current gossip IS the man divorced the woman in order to remarry. Will someone please acknowledge that this thread got started on the wrong foot? The "facts" must be forthcoming by ALL who are desiring to continue in apologetics and so-called 'defense of their faiths'. We of pentecost DO NOT BELIEVE in the philosophy of the catholic minded (nor the 'reformed' catholic minded) and DO NOT BELIEVE that our God is needing to be appeased of any anger, nor needs all this 'apologistic activity' for His defense. His anger in the Scriptures is ONLY to those to whom He WAS betrothed. All those caught in these last of the last days 'nets' cannot claim they are 'betrothed' as yet unto God (just because they have been 'caught'?). Rememer that God's anger was against the Tribe of Judah (the only Tribe to Whom He was betrothed unto a future consumation of that proposal). His anger is NOT at sin or sinners in general. He needs NOT to be appeased for any anger. Our Lord died for our sins (according to the Scriptures). He rose (according to the Scriptures). Again (according to the Scriptures He is at the RH of the Father) He did not leave us as orphans. The Holy Spirit is neither angry, nor needs appeasement for anger either. The betrothal to that generation of "Jews" ("The Tribe of JUDAH") was cancelled by our Lord's death upon His cross. The movie coming out of Arthur may or may not become a source of profit financially, but at the least it gives some opportunity to also be caught in these 'last of the last days' nets. So WHY ALL THIS GOSSIP from the 'flippers' and 'floppers'? It now becomes clear that again Satan has been exposed as the agitator and the 'accuser of the BRETHREN'!!!! |
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contend4thef8th
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For rahabsplace Rahabsplace, you would make Pharisees and cultists everywhere proud. Really proud. You used scripture to cancel scripture. Duh, what were/are you thinking? You think it's ok to cancel scripture with scripture? To use your rose coloured self-induced theology to DISOBEY what Jesus said? Well, do you? Jesus slammed the Pharisees from doing that very same thing. Shameful. I am frustrated with such narrow minded, self serving and self seeking "christians." If your gonna read the Bible you'll have to picture it as a whole, not fragmented pieces from which you pick and choose what you WANT TO BELIEVE. You are doing that. MANY are doing that. |
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rahabsplace
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Obviously Jesus Didn't Understand the Need for Righteusness Well, according to the posts I've seen here, obviously Jesus didn't understand the need to take a stand for righteousness in the case of Peter who publicly denied him. I mean Peter could be forgiven, but it was so wrong of Jesus to publicly parade him him in ministry 50 days later and have him back as a leader of the infant church. What was he thinking? What kind of greasy grace message was he sending to new converts? Or Paul. My, everyone knows you don't allow a new convert to preach like that, especially one who was murdering people. No, they need to be trained before you let them into public ministry. They have to prove the sincerity of their conversion. It would be a horrible thing to let someone like Paul in the pulpit and then for him to go back into his sin. And obviously God had no idea of what he was doing when he allowed David to continue in his adulterous marriage to Bathsheba. And the greasy grace he extended there, when the Law demanded that both David and Bathsheba be taken out and stoned for their adultery. No, obviously God doesn't understand the dangers of greasy grace or he would have dealt with his children differently throughout the Bible. |
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contend4thef8th
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The Arthur Blessitt scandel, hmmm.................... I remember Arthur Blessitt now. I had no idea he divorced and remarried. His first marriage was to Sherry Anne Simmons.Together they had six children: Gina, Joel, Joy, Joshua, Joseph and Jerusalem. In 1990 he married Denise. They have one child, Sophia. Just goes to show how insidious divorce and remarriage is. Adulterers do not go to heaven, 1 Cor. 6:9. Guess heaven is gonna have a lot of room. So sad. He currently lives in Aurora, CO and attends Heritage Christian Center. |
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Barbara
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Where is Sherry Blessitt today? Doesn't this all sound so reminiscent of Arthur Blessitt and his divorce from Sherry, and his 7 kids, now he has a wife 20 years younger and an adopted child. Now TBN, the station for all the divorced, is making money off all ya'll who don't know anything about Arthur, by making a movie of him. Didn't he say God told him to divorce his wife? Does anyone know where Sherry is today? Good grief. It just makes me sick. I was always taught by my pastor that you are supposed to step down, and out, of ministry if you are having marriage problems, and not resume until you reconclle and have a strong marriage. But the superstar-ministers don't have to anymore. Just trade one model in for another. By The Way...the website is really slow and bogged down...hard to get into these articles by Lee. |
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justdrew
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... "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come. " Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." |
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criznale93
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... I want to comment However, I feel the need to remain quiet. Thank you for this article Mr. Grady. Thank you. |
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contend4thef8th
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Good Job TCLARK That is one of my bones of contention. Christians picking and choosing what scriptures they want to believe in. NOT reading the Bible as a whole as they should. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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globalgospel? I just knew it was you. GG said, "So, just promoting the Devotionals, would like to say to R.T.Kendall that Jacob wrestled with an Angel of the Lord WHO had first put his hip out of joint. He wouldn't let the Angel go without healing his hip at least so he could walk away from the scurmmish back to the camp." Wow, what a convoluted interpretation of Jacob wrestling with the Angel (Lord). I wrote a paper on Jacob in bible college (and got a passing grade for your info). He was in perfect health when he started wrestling the angel. The reason why he was wrestling is not because he wanted prayer answered, BUT BECAUSE he did not TRUST the Lord. He was trying to manipulate the Lord (sounds like modern Christians). OT calls Jacob a worm. Why? Because of his scheming ways to get ahead, he did not trust the Lord, until he became ISRAEL. The angel "crippled him" because he was too stubborn and self-reliant to submit. When one has health and wealth, it is easy to think of yourself as #1. Jacob always did. And did things his way. But when one becomes handicapped, as he did, one can no longer rely on ones own strength. It shifts our focus to the Lord. When he became "handicapped" he became more patient and cautious. Jacob is an important person to study. Almost half of Genesis revolves around him and his family (Genesis 25ff). So pay attention when you read. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For Onfiren....your page link Onfire said, "Maybe we should all read this article (that is off this site!) from Ruth Meyers; " So you referring us to a Joyce Meyer article (http://tinyurl.com/cy8nk6). I understand she is a gifted teacher, but also an adulterous. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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tclark
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OnFire said: [quoteBecause Romans 8 says there is NOW NO condemnation....and this in the Body of Christ! That's only a third of the verse. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. |
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contend4thef8th
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For onfire Onfire said, "All I am reading in these posts is condemnation! How sad is that? Because Romans 8 says there is NOW NO condemnation....and this in the Body of Christ!" Boy for someone who claims to be "on fire" your comment is smoldering cold. And atypical of someone who cancels scripture with scripture. No doubt you unknowingly used this Pharisee tactic. So many Christians pick and choose (a bad cultist habit) what bible verses they want to emphasize. I've seen too much of that in these forums. No wonder the enemy has a strangle hold on the churches. Too many Christians are in his clutches (not all willingly?). |
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tclark
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jeanne.costello said:We are to love one another, not judge one another! It's Father's job to do all the judging not ours! It's the responsibility of the church to judge the actions (not the hearts) of fellow believers within the church (not those outside the church) in the cases of fornication, greed, idolatry, slander, drunkenness and extortion. We get in trouble when we don't. See 1 Corinthians chapter 5. |
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calmwhisper
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To Romans 8 I am concerned that all you see is condemnation. Some of these comments on here do quality, but the majority I have found are full of Grace, Tough Love, information for those who are scripturally and spiritually too weak to recognize and discern the truth of a situation. A lot of great insight and warnings have come forth as well as support for Lee and his stand, which I personally applaude him for. Some of the writings have gone over my head, but I am still in the training stage scripturally so I don't dismiss them, I just acknowledge that one day I will understand, it is just not today. Therefore I read no condemnation in them. I refuse to fall back on that excuse. The scripture your referring to, that comes after chapter 7 where Paul was speaking about his own struggles and acknowedges, that in the next chapter, because of Jesus, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. He acknowledges his flaws and downfalls. He makes it known to others so those who struggle and want God's help will be able to find it. What I find interesting, He was not confessing to openly sinning while ministering. I try to look at the situation, where it is, who is in it and then bring what I know before God, let Him correct me or show me what I need to do. I do confess I read that he spoke of some problems which should have been a hint to those ordaining him. They should have waited and they made a bad situation worse. They are at fault for that. Concerning this situation with Lakeland and Mr. Bentley, God said stay far away because Todd's sin would be exposed. God protected me by His love for me. How great is God to do that. I was a baby in Him and because I went to Him, I was spared from the results I am seeing many others go through. So, once again, I am concerned that condemnation is all you read. I will never condemn Todd about divorce because before I was saved I was divorced. My husband left me for another woman, one of many. I remarried and my husband tried to kill me and was abusing my sons. That marriage only lasted 14 months. So, I have no room or as the scriptures says in Matthew, I could be picked apart and I am just not in the mood. Since my salvation through Grace, I can think of nothing but Jesus. I don't care to remarry. I have to ask, if Jesus was his focus, how could he so easily fall while ministering? How could he betray Jesus that way? The only answer that comes forth is He never knew Jesus. If he did, he would not have even considered it and would have taken steps to resist and protect himself. I hope he learns from it or it will happen again. |
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davidsdance
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To calmwhisper and contend4thef8th Wow, it looks like I should have spent another hour writing with more detail...because I sure do agree with both of you! I am so aware of the ugly debacle of TB and Lakeland, and before that. I also believe that TB needs to get out of sight in the way any "ministry"...this man's life needs to be radically changed before he has anything to "minister." But if Rick Joyner is his mentor, then most likely it will not happen God's way. I was not suggesting that "gifts" qualify us for ministry, I was saying that those I knew from various walks in life that had been divorced most certainly did have God's approval on their life for what they were doing in the mission field. God had totally changed them. |
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Globalgospel
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R.T.Kendall's Devotional Since this thread is getting rather lengthy, am considering posting on threads with little hits, and not taking up space by posting altered personal and private emails between each other's posts. So, just promoting the Devotionals, would like to say to R.T.Kendall that Jacob wrestled with an Angel of the Lord WHO had first put his hip out of joint. He would'nt let the Angel go without healing his hip at least so he could walk away from the scurmmish back to the camp. Reminds us somewhat of healing evangelists who began their Christian Life reading from books like Benny Hinns "Good Morning Holy Spirit" and all they knew was they were not going to let the Angel of the Lord depart without healing them sufficiently so they could at least limp back into camp and back to their relatives with an honest report about God. It seems this thread is about a young man who went this path with his whole heart, but his former wife did not have the same aggression to wrestle on with the Angel and like Jacob say "I will not let you go from HERE without some sort of healing from my 'out of joint' life. In the process, this young man still, became acquainted with an intern who likewise feels called to the Healing Ministry Worldwide, even willing to travel to foreign lands, even dangerous Moslem lands where you must either put up or shut up. The Church of their choice for "restoration" process should be able to help them both 'limp' back to the camp having been "touched by the Angel of the Lord". As to the former wife, since she had had enough of all this type of ministry emphasis toward "not letting the healing Angel go" until He blesses, she already has a camp which was never left behind for to wrestle with the same intensity as her former mate. Also since she divorced her former mate (and having children to raise) and did not seem to do so just for to marry another man, she should be free to find another man to help raise their children together. This is God's grace which is very, very common and will continue until the end of this age. Simply put, the calling of ministry was first (and still is) two by two sent forth. But IF one does not feel equally yoked together, they can leave the "unbeliever" (whom they contend is offbase). God is much more concerned (according to Bible) about this "hardness of heart" than He is about divorce. So in Grace these can go forth, as have many before them, even to the hardest of territories in these last of the last days, following that one year time period the Bible allows for the newly married to stay out of war, and thus following of their "restoration" back to the camp (limping though they may still be) but yet having both been "touched by an Angel". Lets just all pray the Angel they love remains the "Lord's Angel". |
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OnFire
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Romans 8 All I am reading in these posts is condemnation! How sad is that? Because Romans 8 says there is NOW NO condemnation....and this in the Body of Christ! Maybe we should all read this article (that is off this site!) from Ruth Meyers; http://charismamag.com/index.php/component/content/article/515-healing-words/18499-straight-talk |
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calmwhisper
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Concerning Grace Davids dance and many others, one of the greatest ministers of radical grace since Jesus and Paul, Joseph Prince from Singapore says himself that those who are in sin, though they come to you with I'm sorrys and tears, if they have not shown signs of repentance and it seems that they are still in the sin and have not walked away from it, therefore wait. Grace is not to be taken lightly because of the sacrifice Jesus gave. Instead, watch, wait and extend grace liberally, but not ignorantly. We are not to dispense Grace as if it is a dime a dozen, but with great discernment and with great direction from the Holy Spirit. (Keep in mind, this is not verbetim, but what I remember him saying and my interpretation thereof. I was saved under his ministry and I live in Alabama). We are to forgive, but wait for the signs of repentance. Many says Grace says put them back in the pulpit without fruit of repentance, wisdom of Grace from God says wait and let them produce the fruits of Salvation. We are saved daily and must produce such fruit. My previous life was full of sin and since I received the magnificant grace of God, I would rather die than to sin against God. I am always aware of my actions and I do not allow, as in the song by Casting Crowns, the slow fade to take place. I have not seen such fruit in Todd Bentley. I am waiting. I forgive, but grace I will reserve so as to not have him trample what is so precious to me. I do not discount anyones passion for forgiving, but please treat Grace with the respect because Grace is Jesus. Would you through Jesus to Todd Bentley just because he came under Rick Joyner for restoration? I think not. Instead, you would wait and let Jesus (Grace) walk to him himself. Be careful to not sin yourselves by mistreating that which God so freely gave us. |
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contend4thef8th
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davidsdance also said..... davidsdance also said, "We are to judge the fruit, and THAT DOES NOT MEAN BIG NUMBERS in a ministry, or healings, ... Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Over the years I have known numerous people who were divorced and in the mission field that did amazing, anointed things for God, with great fruit. They lived obedient, Godly lives, with sacrifice that most of you cannot conceive of. You also cannot conceive of the anguish and pain they went through in a divorce. Legalism is a trap of the enemy, and the denominations that endorse it keep people bound in lies and defeat." You really, like many, pick and choose what you want to believe and ignore the rest. We're also to judge sin in our midst as Jesus and Paul, speak of in the Bible. The Corinthians thought too much (too mature?) of themselves. Perhaps thinking, "We'll we still got the gifts so let's party." Paul said, stop, remove the person, hand them to satan. Just because one can still, after divorce, or any kind of sin, operate their gifts is NOT proof one still has God's approval. While at Lakeland TB was fornicating and drunken, yet every night he could still get it up to perform at Lakeland. The so-called "prophets" non the wiser. While it is true the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, I don't think God meant it for those who are ongoing in sin, to assume they can get back in the saddle again, just like that. Sadly many do, look at TB. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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davidsdance said......... davidsdance said, "Some of you people do not know your Bible about what is being said about divorce or grace. Grace is something that happens to you...it is an experience..and until you experience it my friends, you are not qualified to comment on it." Grace, knowing that it is possible to receive it, is never, ever an excuse to condone any kind of sin. Or think one can sin since we're in a "state of grace." We'd be no better than the catholic church that dispenses it out of the confessional booth. |
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davidsdance
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Real Problem Why is Charismamag.org ignoring one of the root problems with Todd Bentley's life...and that is his connection to witchcraft and the occult? Yes divorce is not at all good...but guess what...it is not the unpardonable sin as some have erroneously stated in their fervor to point out his divorce as disqualifying him. Look at the ROOT OF HIS PROBLEM that led to divorce. Some of you people do not know your Bible about what is being said about divorce or grace. Grace is something that happens to you...it is an experience..and until you experience it my friends, you are not qualified to comment on it. Are some of you in AOG that has touted the false doctrine that divorced people cannot be considered to be in a "legitimate" ministry? I guess legitimate according to a denomination, but not according to God's heart, His unchanging Word, and power of the Holy Spirit. I believe only God Himself knows who has a new and totally changed heart, and when he judges all things, it will be apparent. We are to judge the fruit, and THAT DOES NOT MEAN BIG NUMBERS in a ministry, or healings, ... Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Over the years I have known numerous people who were divorced and in the mission field that did amazing, anointed things for God, with great fruit. They lived obedient, Godly lives, with sacrifice that most of you cannot conceive of. You also cannot conceive of the anguish and pain they went through in a divorce. Legalism is a trap of the enemy, and the denominations that endorse it keep people bound in lies and defeat. |
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OnFire
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Grace By a factor of probably 10:1, these posts all seemingly condemn something, or someone. What does Grace look like then? Have we not all gone astray - and been restored by the Lord? What then if we sin again? What would restoration look like? If Todd was trying to get around the sin, why would he step down? Why would he submit to anyone? I just wonder what some believe Grace would look like, because to me - this is what it looks like! The admonitions, on all sides are maybe a little over the top - men don't change men. Only going in repentance to the Lord will allow the Holy Spirit to change your heart...haven't we learned that? Maybe not... |
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contend4thef8th
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globalgospel, I got you email. Globalgospel said in the email he sent to me, "Seems you no longer keep up with Charisma 'threads' on the subject of divorce and remarriage (or did we see this incorrectly)? Also seems you want someone to talk to on this subject (posting your email many ,many times over)? Also you called out global on the threads many times also (before quiting?) So here goes anyway, but privately only. Are you planning to continue masturbation or be able to wait on that also until your ex dies? Or is your stated handicap related to this subject also? Fornication might have been a problem of BOTH as to these Churched divorces who have also found themselves unequally yoked together. When one leaves (as you claim you must) you are far too apprised you also then 'free up' the other. Seems you are only constantly telling on yourself. Your hoping your ex does NOT find another also? Or is your divorcing also based upon 'insecurity re: finances' (that besetting sin also called for the 'love of having legal tendar at all times')? In any event, so far, you have flunked as to becoming an apologist for THE faith, but maybe not as to YOUR own faith, so far. You see, every person has a set of totally different circumstances. Even you. You try to use the Bible on your soon to be ex, we can only be certain. Why not just try to be a humble human being toward her. Be understanding and see both yourselves as 'journey' thru the 'wilderness' of this planet. Neither of you asked to be born in this tiny blue marble. Both of you (most highly likely) will 'stand up again' in that 'next life' soon to come (sooner than either of you think). As to your question you ask publically at Charisma? Global means more than only one Globe has been built by our Lord. This Globe is just a 'copy' of three (where you probably will again meet up with your soon to be ex in the afterlife). Try your best to get your own starting blocks for the race ahead lined up corrected and strait to run your race (after your putting off of your dust body here). As to your concern about Universalism teachings, the ONLY people who will NOT leave this HELL here, and are bound to the soon fire coming upon this planet, are people who have become Twice Dead, AND plucked up by the roots. In other words, the truly saved who have gotten out of the nets, even out of the boat of these last days, and not only have become dead again in their trespasses and sins AND have blasphemed the Holy Spirit in grieving Him as a third strike against God (as Satan Himself Who after His Third Strike was also Plucked Up By the Roots, and will eventually also be tossed out of Heaven to this tiny ON FIRE planet). See that in all your studying and apologetics you also keep from any type of third strike you, or cause others to make who are in your sphere of influences. THERE IS A REAL ETERNAL HELL WITH FIRE AND IT HAPPENS TO BE WHERE YOU AND YOUR SOON TO BE EX (BUT HOPEFULLY NOT) WERE BORN, BUT NOT BY YOUR OWN CHOICE. hOWever, IF both of you have been born again, you also both become eligible also (by your own choices) to be twice dead also. Hopefully neither of you will become among those who are on notice as 'plucked up' "by the roots" of salvation and freedom which comes by our choices." Like RJ when you cannot dispute the facts you attack my charactor. Shame on you. |
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contend4thef8th
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stevejenks911 Steve said, "we need to be careful not to become Pharisaical towards TB." TB and RJ are themselves. Seem they got one set of religious rules for themselves and another for us. |
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justdrew
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... I have been thinking about this for a while now and i can't help thinking that there is a much bigger picture here unfolding, What happened to Todd was just the symptoms and a "cause and effect" of what has been "brewing" for a while. Is it not possible that we have become sin numb and our hearts become so seared that we are at a place where we do not have any strong discernment to what the Devil is doing or what is right and wrong, Is it possible that we are using Grace as a scapegoat for our sinful nature in order to not have to “ Be Holy as He is Holy “ I am not playing down Grace here but something is wrong when there seems to be little or no concern for the consequences or effects of sinning, Make no mistake David was forgiven for his actions BUT there were disastrous consequences for his action, for him personally and for the House of David. I hear almost daily of Christian couples getting divorced ….. Something is WRONG …. Very wrong So I believe we need to take our eyes off the Todd affair and seek God for answers, because Christian families are crumbling before our eyes, and the question I would ask is why is it so easy for Christian men and woman to so flippantly chuck their marriages aside? Is it because our leaders seem to justify it in some way? Do we just have no regard for the covenant vows we say before God and man? If our understanding of Grace negates our understanding of the Fear of God then we do Not understand Grace as God intended. Lee’s right to ask and challenge things as they are at the moment, because if we carry on the same path we are on at present we are heading for more chaos and disaster |
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contend4thef8th
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To Jeanne Costello Jeanne, you said, "We are to love one another, not judge one another! It's Father's job to do all the judging not ours!" Ah, no. Jeanne it is comments like yours that almost make me despair that there is any serious bible reading Christians left. Jesus said to judge righteous judgement. yes, he also said judge not least you be judge. But if you read that with proper study tools, you'll find it means the same thing. Paul tells us to judge problems in the body because we one day will be judging angels. Paul even goes so far and tells us to examine ourselves to see if we are real Christians, 2 Corinthians 13:4-6. Ephesians 5: 10-12 says, " 10and find out what pleases the Lord. 11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret." So, only you say we should not judge. I'd rather obey the Word. And so should you. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Biblical contentions for faith and practice Reformed catholics, theologically make up our so-called apologists of today. They defend the faith of the "reformers" against "Romanism" (while at the same time hold on to those same Catholic Creeds of "greasy grace" which they thought were something else being taught). They all are into "eternal security" of the catholic minded and those birthed into and under those Early Church Catholic (Nicolaiten) Creeds! They say: "he who must be saved, must be saved thru the Holy Roman Catholic Church" OR "thru the 'reformed' Holy Catholicisms"! As to Biblically attacking "greasy grace"? One must FIRST come to grips with the facts that God's Word is that "seed" which is "sown" in the "heart" of man. It NEVER returns back unto God as void. If a Christian (be it in leadership or not) allows Christian "growth" to become choked out, or "cares of this world", or "persecutions", or plainly speaking have Satan come in and "pluck" from their "hearts" their salvation thru the "Word" having come INTO their "hearts"? Greasy Grace 'reformers' do NOT see they can themselves lose their salvation, therefore they try to excel in apologetics (all the while NOT KNOWING the judge and jury stands at the door waiting for THEM to enter that 'next life') where ALL their OWN sins and activities (hidden and otherwise) will be sure to come to light ("to find THEM out"). Those who want to continually throw "the first stone" will ALWAYS be the first to have their OWN names written in the sand (and each in their "own order") will come to judgment FIRST in their sure soon coming afterlives |
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stevejenks911
said:
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Dear Laura: what is making you sick? The only way you are getting "sick" is if you are making JUDGMENTS about what the people in this thread are saying. There are a few comments that I think are in the wrong spirit (perhaps my own as well), but mostly, I think people are using this forum to air issues that desperately need to be examined. It's not just Todd Bentley, Paul Cain, Benny Hinn, Patricia Coking, Bob Jones, Juanita Bynum and a host of others--we want the reality of Christ's presence and it is OBVIOUS from an examination of the modern prophetic movement's FRUIT, we don't have it! And all of the other people on this thread know it and want to see this whole mess changed so we can be pleasing to the our Heavenly Father! If that makes you sick, then perhaps you should go to the Heavenly Physician and get some eye salve (and get some for me too!). Love, In Christ, a concerned bro. |
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stevejenks911
said:
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Just watched Rick Joyner's response... I agree somewhat with some of the points RJ makes: we need to be careful not to become Pharisaical towards TB. I am hoping TB demonstrates real repentance and calls the sins he was involved with during Lakeland what they are, not "inappropriate". Where he spends eternity may depend on it. It amazes me we live in an age where so-called "Christians" actually believe we are not supposed to call sinful behavior "sin". If you twist the scripture to mean we should not judge ANYTHING, we contradict the place in John where Jesus told the Pharisees to "make a right judgment". (John 7:24) We also contradict the place in scripture where Paul said we are qualified to judge earthly disputes between brethren. (I Cor 5: 11-13) In fact, if you take the moral relativist's misinterpretation about not judging another (Sermon on the Mount, Matt) to it's logical extreme, we would have to disband every court of law in the world--we can't judge! And every prophet God sent to correct and/or lead Israel was overstepping his/her bounds by pointing out the society's sins and that they must turn from them. And Paul was completely wrong when he told the Corinthians to EXPEL the immoral brother and turn him over to Satan that his flesh might be destroyed that his soul would be saved. Perhaps Jesus meant we should not judge hypocritically--I have my own past where I was under Church discipline for my own sins in the mid-90's. I can't cast stones at TB or RJ--I love them both. But I was made (by God!) to admit to myself that what I was doing was sin and that sin, if I did not repent, would lead to me being shut out of the Kingdom! All my professions of faith are worthless on the day of judgment. I John 3 is the forbidden chapter in most of our churches today: read it. It means EXACTLY what it says. All of our "sinner's prayer" magic spells amount to nothing if our life reflects no true change of heart and moving ever onward into the likeness and holy character and nature of Christ. The whole situation with the modern prophetic movement points to one thing: something is desperately wrong with the entire foundation of the movement. Art Katz was RIGHT when he prophesied that Paul Cain was just the beginning of God exposing the falsity of the entire movement. We have supposed supernatural manifestations everywhere, claim to be the eyes and ears of the body of Christ, and yet our nation burns down around us while we dance and sing, "We will dance on the streets that are golden". And millions IN THE CHURCH are deceived that because they were sincere in saying the sinner's prayer, they are assured of Heaven no matter how they live afterwards. How they live afterwards is the primary evidence they are actually saved!!!!!! Do we really possess salvation? Jesus said in Luke 13, unless you REPENT, you will perish. May God have mercy on us. We don't need to attack and kill Paul Cain, Todd Bentley, Patricia Coking, Benny Hinn, etc., (although they should come clean!)--we need to examine the whole movement and see where doctrines of demons have crept in and clean the whole house because the REAL problem is US, collectively. We put these people in power and follow them unquestioningly. We do and then condone an atmosphere where anyone who even questions any of these leaders' doctrines and practices is subjected to accusations of having religious demons or speaking with voice of the accuser! We ALL NEED TO REPENT and cry out to God to make us ready to stand before Him by His Grace. May the Living God, Jesus Christ have mercy on us all and send we, the Laodiceans, some eye salve and righteousness REAL FAST before we find ourselves lacking oil and run off to TORONTO/PASADENA/PENSACOLA/BROWNSVILLE/LAKELAND to get it! We all know how that turns out--Matthew 25. |
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Jeremiahs Tears
said:
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How to judge Scripturally ... one more time Well, the "judge not" thing has come up again, so let's read what Robingael said one more time. It is sooooo good, and kind of settles the dust again. Watch those tempers guys... ""Judge not, that you be not judged". In the Greek verb, that form of "judge" is "krino": pronouncing a sentence or executing that which has been determined. Jesus said, judge (krino) not. Don't you give the sentence or execute before the time. The second Greek verb is "diakrino," which denotes arbitrating and deciding by way of being discriminate. In other words, 'THINK!" The third,"Anakrino," means to examine, investigate and question. We ought to examine, that is, to inspect or scrutinize with care. To test for fitness, to consider, discuss, explore, interrogate, observe, overhaul, ponder, ransack, search, study, try, view, weigh, inquire and compare. The Apostle Paul says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth (anakrino) all things..." (I Corinthians 2:15) This includes judging the false prophet, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge (anakrino)." (I Corinthians 14:29) Thanks to Bishop Robert E Smith, Sr., from Strong Words About Deception " This is really helpful in understanding how we are instructed to use judgment in such cases. It does sound to me after reading this that we have to take great care and use our judgment when deciding whether to follow the message of another, or whether to join together with another. But, this also reveals clearly that we should never confuse judgment (in terms of accusing and convicting before God's time) with discernment, that is whether to accept ones message (or gifts in this case) as being from God. If enough Christians will walk away from the leadership and messages coming from those who are clearly false prophets, those in error would have no one to listen to them. The alienation might then, if they are inclined, hopefully lead them back to God. |
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jeanne.costello
said:
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Are you really serious? Who are you to judge? Who gives you the right to act like a Pharisee? Even Jesus had a hard time with the religious spirit. You hang out with people like Jack Frost and go to his funeral and you do the absolute opposite of all he stood for. I pray that ou have a good look at yourself and take the beam out of your own eye before you point to someone else. What has the american church come to? It's an outrage. We are to love one another, not judge one another! It's Father's job to do all the judging not ours! |
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Jeremiahs Tears
said:
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"Nicolaitan" means conquer the laity Dear Calmwhisper, You have the permission and encouragement of the intercessor who gave us that exhortation to share her message with whoever you feel led to. And thanks for the encouraging words! Globalgospel's message talks about the Nicolaitan. Here is an excerpt from an article by Todd Tomasella that is found at http://www.arkhaven.org/aposto...eption.htm "When any leader assumes undue control, it is the 'deeds' and 'doctrine of the Nicolaitan' which Christ said He hated and “will fight against.' (Rev. 2:6, 15-16) 'Nicolaitan' means conquer the laity. Nico = conquer and laitanes = the laity. The Great Shepherd of His sheep never authorized such authority to mere men. In fact, Jesus taught: “But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.” (Matt. 23:11-12) The measure of leadership is in serving others as unto the LORD. The true apostle will be found to have a heart that is broken and bowed before the LORD Almighty and a disposition to serve and not reign over God’s people. In light of what Christ, “the apostle and high priest of our profession,” taught, the next time someone comes around claiming to be an apostle, I think it may be good to say something like; “Well good brother, in that case you are to be the greatest servant among us so grab that broom in the corner and please sweep this dirty floor!” (Heb. 3:1) A man who is not postured to serve God’s people manifests his own desire to wrongly position himself and be served by God’s people which in contrary to Christ’s teaching concerning His leaders (Matt. 20:20-28; Phil. 2:3-5). When giving instructions to “elders,” the apostle Peter wrote: “Neither as being lords (rulers) over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.” (1 Pet. 5:3) The body of Christ was purchased by His very own blood and is “God’s heritage” and not man’s. Lording it over “God’s heritage” is the work of those men whom Zechariah said reign as “idol shepherds” amidst God’s people. One of the ways these men gain the positioning to control people is by making the people believe that they are the elite priesthood the LORD speaks through to His Church." Continued... Notice how this describes the Dominionists? |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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for globalgospel And here I thought the christian lady teaching the anti-christ flying saucer invasion, was a nut. Beg your pardon. |
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rpt
said:
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Two more questions.. 1. For TB's defenders, to what sins has he confessed? Many are concerned that he simultaneously seeks "restoration" while he defends himself from all assertions that he did anything wrong. Bakker, Haggard, et al were very explicit in this regard. 2. Re privacy, he is a voluntary public figure who has made his "restoration" the subject of public discussion. He has waived any right to keep anything private by his own actions. |
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thatfeller
said:
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This editorial isn't about greasy grace It's an attack against fallen fellow believer Todd Bentley and those who are working with him for restoration. Words like outrageous, deplorable, shameful don't belong in a public discussion of a brother, fallen or not, wayward or not, misguided or not. Nor is it appropriate to assume that because Rev. Bentley was a public figure, therefore it follows that the press or the public should be privy to all that goes on in the restoration process. Do you want your sins posted all over the internet as you're trying to work your way out of them? And may I suggest that we as commentors don't need to be reviling each other and each others' positions any more than we need to be reviling Todd or Lee or anybody else. |
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Elise
said:
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thanks Jeremiah's tears and calmwhisper This is a powerufl statement. This intercessor is sure hearing from God. Many are waking up from the Dominionist lie...and realizing they are false, and lust for control of people. Their visions are false, their prophecies are false...I hope they recognize the true God before it will be too late for them. God is grieved by the arrogance. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Subjects re: "Greasy Grace" The doctrine Balaam taught King Balak was that "greasy grace" doctrine of his day. They knew of a City called "Salem" , "Melchesedek" was "King" over that City (same as Whom Abe paid tithes unto later on). Melchesedek clearly was Theophany of both that WORK and PERSON of the Holy Spirit as to this planet. However, "Salem" was NOT a City on this earth. Never has been, and never will be either!!! Balaam made this mistake also, along with his doctrine of "eternal security" of Israelites (once saved) as always and ever. He also taught King 'Balak' the false doctrine of the priesthood of Meschesedek as coming to THIS planet? and that the children of Israel should be practicing their own "Kingdom Now" hopes for this planet. Keep always in mind (as to subjects re: "greasy grace") that NO ONE born on this planet after the early rain apostolic anointings will ever see again that very priesthood of Melchesedek which ONLY our Lord and Savior truly operated by when HERE, and operates again future BUT Heavenly ONLY. All you commentators amongst the Latter Rain of today, and who THINK they are of the true Melchesedek Priesthood who (at the same time) do not believe in any "rapture" whatsoever?, and do not believe in the "catching away" of all who are IN CHRIST (in His same Anointing by FAITH)? and yet today believe like Balaam (and modern day Calvin, et al,, and looking for the City of God to be coming HERE?) and have been instructed in a false doctrine which the Bible declares comes on the heels of Nicolaiten teachings (reformed catholicisms now taught over 400 years since reformation of the Roman Church) and is even more deadly of a doctrine than even the Roman Catholic Creedal minded before 'reformation'.... |
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calmwhisper
said:
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... Jeremiah tears. That is the most awesome comment I have ever read. I wanted to fall before God reading it. I suscribed to this comment section and so it comes to my email. I would like to share it with someone. |
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Jeremiahs Tears
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THERE IS MUCH FALSE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH TODAY Lee Grady is much more than a Journalist just as Rick Joyner is much more than an author. RJ pleads the case that he has more spiritual authority than any of his critics and will eventually infer that we are to believe all he says because he has authority over us. But that is the way of Dominionists. What negates his argument is … his authority is false, as so many have demonstrated in this forum. The following is the statement of an intercessor, written in 1999, that expresses this problem very well. Intercessors don’t want their names made public, but this is a long-time friend whom I can heartily endorse. This prophetic intercessor said: The foundations of all that remain apart from Jesus Christ are being shaken. Authority which is not walking in humility and a spirit of repentance before God and man are in real danger at this time. They are in danger of a Holy God passing them over. There is much false authority in the church and ministry today. It is coming through the open door of Pride. There is a spirit of witchcraft (rebellion) and mind control operating through the flesh of many and a great need for humility and repentance before God. The Lord is saying to those in leadership in the body of Christ….STOP….EXAMINE EVERYTHING…GET RID OF EVERYTHING WHICH DOES NOT LINE UP WITH MY WORD AND MY WAYS…. The Lord is cleansing His temple (we are His temple). He is raising up a Melchizedek priesthood with bread and wine in their hands. This ministry is unto the Him and LIFE will flow out to the people. Those who do not see and return to what God is doing and those who come against this move of His Spirit will fall because of pride and arrogance. He is calling for simplicity of love and devotion to Jesus Christ. Many are in error and have been deceived. Some who have truly been used of God in the past are now operating in witchcraft….the open door being pride, selfish ambition and compromising the TRUTH and the WORD of God. There is strife and division and every work of the flesh and they are not able to discern and walk by His Spirit. The Lord is CALLING, CALLING, CALLING them to COME BACK TO THE FAITH! He is pleading for them to come back to the FOUNDATIONS laid in the SCRIPTURES. He is pleading with them to FEED THE FLOCK….HIS LITTLE LAMBS THE TRUTH THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS!!! Lord, have mercy, have mercy. Pour forth a spirit of repentance, true repentance with FRUIT in the lives of all your people, especially those in leadership, for many are in danger at this time. Lord, Your heart is grieving and longs to restore…Open their eyes Lord Jesus, for the sake of YOUR NAME and YOUR KINGDOM!! Raise them up, Lord…..Raise them up! Raise up the men and women of FAITH who will not compromise Your Word, who will not be bought but who will STAND on behalf of those whom Christ died….Bless those Lord, who stand in the gap….bless those who faithfully and tenderly feed Your flock, bless them and encourage their hearts…..Raise up many more pastors, Lord after Your own heart who will protect their flocks and feed them…..according to Your Word! Lord, please give to all whom you have called into leadership, GREAT DISCERNMENT and GREAT GRACE in this hour! |
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anthony
said:
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... Rick Joyner continues to shoot from the hip and manages to hit his own foot again and again.Not impressed,be encouraged Lee. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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Thanks Barbara for the link. Barbara, what RJ is doing is par for the course when caught in error. He cannot rationalize and scripturally shut down Lee, so he attacks him on a personal level. Many caught in sin or some wrong always resort to personal attacks when they can't shout down or brow beat those opposed to them. The behaviour is an added shame. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Robingael
said:
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in your debt It looks like the Joynerites are all in a tizzy. I too saw the video. What a cacophony of back peddling and patronizing. Once again, Rick Joyner twist the scripture to fit his stratagem. He has no concept of what a TRUE Biblical sphere of authority is, so he is compelled to posture and position himself in order to show the general commonality that a mere journalist should not and cannot hope to attain to his incontestable apotheosis. I noted the camera zooming in to focus on his furrowed eyebrows, so laden with concern, burdened by this crisis that can only be remedied by his irrefutable and august leadership. Thanks for your decision to post "the letter," Lee. One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. We are in your debt. |
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RepentorPerish
said:
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... joyner asks Lee what he has built. I'd say Lee lets God do his building. What man builds will fall. |
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Barbara
said:
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JOYNER ATTACKS LEE Here is a better link. It's the Marcy 18th video. How CRASS of JOYNER. Anybody else watched this fiasco?? |
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Barbara
said:
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JOYNER ATTACKS LEE ON HIS WEBSITE http://www.morningstarministri...tleys.aspx There's the link folks. Wow...Joyner attacks Lee bigtime! Says he is a journalist with no authority to speak about any of this. He says he's worried about Lee's spiritual life, and calls him "self-righteous" as the camera zooms in and out dramatically. He calls Lee an illigitamate authority, and says what have you built? Joyner is really serious about being right. He starts out nice, then gets mean. |
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Jeremiahs Tears
said:
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wagutowski is right as far as he went Dr. Wagutowski is a psychiatric professional, so I will assume he is right as far as he went with TB's problems, but as many people on this forum have said very well ... there is more to the problem. Todd was teaching/practicing false doctrine that also needs to be repented of. The trouble is, his confessor and all his mentors are all into this false doctrine as well and also need to repent and be restored to the faith. The poor guy needs restoration, but it can only come in some other setting than the one his mentors are in. The false can not restore the false. All this talk about repentance and restoration and there he is in the midst of a group that needs repentance and restoration into the true church of our Redeemer. If we truly have compassion for Todd, we will pray earnestly for his deliverance from this group, and for him to be led bu the Holy Spirit to where he can find true healing and restoration. |
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christianlee
said:
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... I commend Lee Grady for much of the wisdom he presents here and the call to more "firm" measures of biblical church discipline. But I don't think that it is right that he slid his personal views on the Lakeland revival at the end. I think Lee Grady is causing much discouragement and hurts to the people whose lives were radically changed at Lakeland. I think it's unreasonable that he judges it so strongly without having visited it personally. |
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wagutowski
said:
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Restoration Dear Lee, I am a spirit filled charismatic Christian Psychiatrist. I have 43 years of Christian counselling experience. I have offered to help "restore" my brother Todd to ministry but NOT without him returning to Shonnah and his children! I agree with your confronting Brother Rick for not being more scriptural in his work with Todd. If Rick had just listened to Todd in the website interview he would have heard Todd's own statement of how he (Todd) handles stress. He admitted that he always packs up and move on to some place else. If Rick really loves Todd and wants to successfully restore him; then he must NOT ALLOW Todd to follow his old coping mechanisms. I believe that Rick has allowed Todd to manipulate him. I firmly believe that God will reveal to the church where His favor lies. I believe that like the sin of Achan; Todd's continuing to live in sin will stop God's blessing on Rick's Ministry. We must speak truth as revealed by the Bible; but ultimately Rick will learn from the Holy Spirit about God's truth and blessing. Dr. Willi D. Gutowski M.D. (Psychiatrist) |
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Robingael
said:
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To Laura that is sick of us... To Laura, You have mature responses by several here on your comment. It is impossible to say we love Jesus but do not love the Word. HE is the Word in the flesh.John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. The more we study the Word, the more Christ Jesus is revealed. But the revealing of Him is done through the Holy Spirit, as the Word and the Spirit are inseparable. Joh 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. You see, the Holy Spirit is always testifying of Jesus! That's why it was so obvious that all the shoomba BAM, violence, deceit, drunkenness issuing from TB was not the Holy Spirit as he and his cohorts claim. He was filled with HIMSELF and his own soul power and occult spirits, and they can heal also I have seen it in 100% new age settings. The false prophets/leaders that backed him love $$$$, power, and control. They do not know the Jesus I know. I hope you are inspired to do a word study on Holy Spirit, truth, love, Word you can get a free Bible software at e-sword.com I use it all the time, it is so valuable. It will help you see why so many of the people on this forum are in agreement. I do not know Gray Coat but what they said about the Shack is true. I do not go to their church or even know what church they attend, but we are in agreement. Being born again of the Spirit does that, and in time I hope you will grow into mature understanding of the Word, and fall in love with Jesus. Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. There is some great help out there to guide you in the right direction. One is carylmatrisciana.com...very very good place to research and learn. She recently wrote, "Rick Joyner is part of the new-age "christianized" merger with the old eastern lie! But as the theory of evolution changes so does the new-age movement evolve..spirituality adapts to the mood of the culture - thanks be to God that He remains the same yesterday, today and forever. Amen! Todd Bentley, yoga :the core of new-age mental adaptation through imagination into the supernatural realm." When I write about my past new-age experiences, I use the term mind-science. It is really the same. from Dr. Steve Lambert: All false doctrine is, in essence, an assemblage of "wrong ideas about God" and "perverted notions about God," as Tozer put it. How profound and Scriptural is his statement: "Wrong ideas about God are not only the fountain from which the polluted waters of idolatry flow; they are themselves idolatrous," for "polluted waters" is a metaphor evoked in Scripture to represent false teaching. Indeed, false teaching is by no means, as some seem to believe, a harmless or inconsequential phenomenon, but rather polluted waters can be lethal, both in the natural and the spiritual. False teaching, which in essence is substituting human ideas and sophistry for the absolute Truth of God's Mind, in fact IS idolatry. This site is also very good: http://charismatic-captivation...latry.html |
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Jeremiahs Tears
said:
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Prove Robingael's Greek word study wrong ... if you can. Ok Laura, what part of the scriptural argument that Robingael made can you prove wrong? Take the definition of those Greek words for the English word "grace" and show us what they really mean. If you can't use scripture to prove her wrong, why are you getting so emotional? You made an angry and even desperate statement that you can not back up with anything except the authority you give to Joyner. His authority is not to be disputed, according to the Dominionist doctrine, because God has placed him over us. But prove by Scripture that any man has such authority? I think we will agree that some confront in anger, using all kinds of slanderous language to vent their “righteous indignation”. They are not operating in the fruit of the Holy Spirit and are in sin themselves. In a letter I just wrote to someone else I inserted this passage from Galatians 5: 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. We can expose the sins of the false prophets, teachers, and apostles, and disfellowship them, but we can’t punish beyond that. God will bring His justice to them. So Laura, teach us from the Bible and expose sin that way ... if you can. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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For Laura Laura, you said, "you all make me sick! quoting scripture after scripture! you have no right to judge, no right. And lee grady is dead wrong and I cant wait until the day when it is shown to him and all of you!" Jesus said we are to judge righteous judgment; Paul, speaking for God, says we are to judge sin since one day we will judge angels. While it is true anyone can quote scripture, it is most important to quote them in their proper order. NOT the order we prefer, but as God intended. Too often we look at the bible with self prejudiced glasses. We believe what we want to believe not what the Bible actually says we should believe. All of us who stood for the Word are not here to destroy, but to reassert that God's Word, as He intended, has the final say in our lives. Regardless of what we believe or want to believe. There is a cost to following Jesus. A cost many are not willing to bear because they like the "feel good" christianity they have been spoon fed. Luke 14: 27, "And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple." To "carry your own cross" deals with what life has thrown at us. And we overcome, but may still carry the effects of rape, incest, abuse, divorce, fornication, adultery, etc. With Jesus we overcome any obstacle life has thrown in our path, especially a nosy nagging mother-in-law (my apologies to godly mother-in-laws). Luke 14:28, "But don’t begin until you count the cost...." A dear friend left the faith when she began to count the cost of being Jesus' disciple. She had plans, but those plans were not what God had planned. So, she quit the faith. You're angry. Is it because you slept with an adulterer or are an adulterer? The Word will give you guidance what to do, just do it and I hope you do not mind what it will cost you to follow Jesus. I will be going through a divorce soon, I will not remarry until my ex-spouse dies. If she remarries, I still will remain single since our vows are still in force (Romans 7:1-3). It may mean a life of singleness (and loneliness) for years to come, but I will pay that cost to obey Jesus. If you want to talk more, email me. I care. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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laura
said:
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Sick really sick you all make me sick! quoting scripture after scripture! you have no right to judge, no right. And lee grady is dead wrong and I cant wait until the day when it is shown to him and all of you! |
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Rahmiyn
said:
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... Robingael wrote: ""Judge not, that you be not judged". In the Greek verb, that form of "judge" is "krino": pronouncing a sentence or executing that which has been determined. Jesus said, judge (krino) not. Don't you give the sentence or execute before the time. The second Greek verb is "diakrino," which denotes arbitrating and deciding by way of being discriminate. In other words, 'THINK!" The third,"Anakrino," means to examine, investigate and question. We ought to examine, that is, to inspect or scrutinize with care. To test for fitness, to consider, discuss, explore, interrogate, observe, overhaul, ponder, ransack, search, study, try, view, weigh, inquire and compare. The Apostle Paul says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth (anakrino) all things..." (I Corinthians 2:15) This includes judging the false prophet, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge (anakrino)." (I Corinthians 14:29) Thanks to Bishop Robert E Smith, Sr., from Strong Words About Deception " This is really helpful in understanding how we are instructed to use judgment in such cases. It does sound to me after reading this that we have to take great care and use our judgment when deciding whether to follow the message of another, or whether to join together with another. But, this also reveals clearly that we should never confuse judgement (in terms of accusing and convicting before God's time) with discernment, that is whether to accept ones message (or gifts in this case) as being from God. If enough Christians will walk away from the leadership and messages coming from those who are clearly false prophets, those in error would have no one to listen to them. The alienation might then, if they are inclined, hopefully lead them back to God. I just don't that they can ever go back into a position of leadership. |
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GR1938
said:
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WILLFUL SIN So Todd Bentley WILLFULLY engaged in an adulterous relationship; WILLFULLY committed treason against his wife and family; WILLFULLY took to himself a strange woman and calls it "remarriage;" WILLFULLY lied, got drunk, raised money by fraudulent means; WILLFULLY swore his cohorts to secrecy (and who has looked into their part in this wickedness?). And now, having moved to a new location, he is being "restored"! Amazing! Restored to what? "For if we sin WILLFULLY after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of JUDGMENT and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26) There is a SIN unto DEATH, my friends, and as long as Todd Bentley insists on having his strange woman, any sort of repentance must only be viewed as LIP-SERVICE, and that will avail nothing. To bring forth fruits meet for repentance, he must divest himself of this strange women. Anything else is a sham and mockery. But if that is all the reward he wants, then God will let him have it. Hell ain't for the weekend! Some years ago, the very pastor who joined my wife and me in marriage (holy matrimony) did the same thing. He committed treason against the wife of his youth and took a strange women as his wife. He refused the godly counsel sent him from the Lord and insisted on having his strange woman. A few years later, as my wife prayed in tongues one morning, the Holy Ghost gave her this interpretation: "For My Spirit has departed My servant...." God sent him his last call, it was refused, and God removed His Spirit from him. He still pastors, and he thinks he's on the cutting edge, but all he has is a goatshed. Sheep won't stay there. At about this same time, the Lord showed me that those who accepted this strange woman as the new "wife" were JUST AS GUILTY as the fallen pastor! They also were committing treason against his wife! And the Lord pronounced several WOES against them. Not only that, but the lady minister who joined these two adulterers together (UNholy matrimony) has gone through hell upon hell for these many years. I will spare you the details, but she -- and her house -- have had more than their share of WOES. She refused to repent of her part, and it went very badly with her and her husband. So these self-styled "prophets" and "restorationists" are in for a rude surprise. They will find out the hard way that the Lord Who changeth not STILL hateth putting away, and if they put the "Mrs. Bentley" or "Sister Bentley" tag on that strange woman, they will reap a mighty bitter harvest, perhaps even to the loss of their own souls. They will rue the day they stepped over against the Lord! These men need a good dose of the fear of God, because it's obvious that there in no wisdom anong them. They can "restore" all day long, but as far as God is concerned, Todd Bentley's wife is Shonna Bentley. And now Todd Bentley is going to start "Strange Fire Ministries." He will have what our former pastor has: a GOATshed, because the Lord's sheep will not find pasture there. Call his new place :"Lo-debar." Take up your collections, O ye sons of Laodicea! Amen. |
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Harley
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As I am from the tropics…I decided to learn more about TB…and how it spreads through the body and what is the cure…very revealing indeed! (TB) Tuberculosis is an infection caused by slow-growing bacteria that grow best in areas of the body that have lots of blood and oxygen. That is why it is most often found in the Lungs. TB can also spread to other parts of the body (extrapulmonaryTB). Tuberculosis is either latent or active. •Latent TB means that you have the TB bacteria in your body, but your body’s defenses (immune system) fight the infection and try to keep it from turning into active TB. This means that you do not have any symptoms of TB right now and cannot spread the disease to others. If you have latent TB, it can become active TB. •Active TB means that the TB bacteria are growing and causing symptoms. If your lungs are infected with active TB, it is easy to spread the disease to others. 1.HOW IS TB SPREAD TO OTHERS? Pulmonary TB (in the lungs) is contagious. It spreads when a person who has active TB breathes out air that has the TB bacteria in it and then another person breathes in the bacteria from the air. An infected person releases even more bacteria when he or she does things like cough or laugh. 2.WHO IS MOST AT RISK FOR TB? Some people are more likely than others to get TB. This includes people who: •Have illness that weakens their immune system. •Have close contact with someone who has active TB, such as living in the same house as someone who is infected with TB. •Care for a patient who has active TB, such as doctors or nurses. •Live or work in crowded places such as prisons, nursing homes, or homeless shelters, where other people may have active TB. •Have poor access to health care, such as homeless people and migrant farm workers. •Abuse drugs or alcohol. •Travel to or were born in places where untreated TB is common •It is important for people who are at a high risk for getting TB to get tested once or twice every year. 3.WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS OF TB? Most of the time when people are first infected with TB, the disease is so mild that they do not even know they have it. People with latent TB do not have symptoms unless the disease becomes active. Symptoms of active TB may include: •A cough that brings up thick, cloudy, and sometimes bloody mucus from the lungs •Tiredness and weight loss. •Night sweats and a fever. •A rapid heartbeat. •Swelling in the neck •Shortness of breath 4.How is TB diagnosed? Doctors usually find latent TB by doing a specific body test. If you have TB bacteria in your body, within 2 days you will get a red bump where the needle went into your skin. The test cannot tell when you became infected with TB or if it can be spread to others. As TB is a bacterial, they look for bacteria. Doctors sometimes take a chest X-ray to help find pulmonary TB. To find extrapulmonary TB, doctors can take a sample of the body Biopsy) to test. Alternatively, you might get a CT Scan or an MRI the doctor can see pictures of the inside of the body. How is it treated? Most of the time, doctors combine four antibiotic to treat active TB. Almost all people are cured if they take their medicine just as their doctor says to. If tests still show an active TB infection after 6 months, then treatment continues for a longer period. Most people with latent TB are treated with only one antibiotic that they take for 9 months. This reduces their risk for getting active TB. If you miss doses of your medicine, or if you stop taking your medicine too soon, your treatment may fail or have to go on longer. You may have to start your treatment over again. This can also cause the infection to get worse or lead to an infection that is resistant to antibiotics. It is much harder to treat. TB can only be cured if you take all the doses of your medicine. A doctor or nurse may have to watch you take it to make sure that you never miss a dose and that you take it the proper way. You may have to go to the doctor's office every day. This is called direct observational treatment. It helps people follow all of the instructions and keep up with their treatment, which can be complex and take a long time. Cure rates for TB have greatly improved because of this type of treatment. If active TB is not treated, it can damage your lungs or other organs and can be deadly. |
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lastblast
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Kgolden I believe you are so right! In the greek, "falling away" means a DEFECTION FROM THE TRUTH...........I too do not believe that II Thess. 2 is speaking about people defecting from "Christianity"..........but that they are leaving the foundational TRUTHS of Christianity------instead creating a religion of their own making/desires. They are in fact, trying to rewrite scripture and remake a God of their own liking. That is why the focus is on "self" and experience, rather than on God's eternal Word. This "little god" or "I am a daughter/son of the KING, therefore I deserve.............(fill in the blank)" mentality is an abomination. We have been told time and again in scripture that in spite of ourselves(our sinfulness) that God loves us and sacrificed for us. How that somehow "elevates" us is beyond me. IMHO, it should HUMBLE us and cause us to be thankful for any "scrap" we get from the Master's table because we are NOT deserving............no more deserving than the LOST around us. Scripture also teaches us very clearly that WE are to present OURSELVES as a LIVING sacrifice.............."it is no longer "I" that live, but Christ who lives within me"..............We are called to live for HIM and HIS eternal purposes and forsake our sinful fleshly desires. We desire to SERVE rather than being served, knowing that such "fruit" that will last eternally. God's Word teaches us that the Proud will be brought low............I think we are seeing that happen now. May this whole debaucle cause God's True followers to seek Him with all their hearts------in His Word. It is time we STOPPED elevating man, whether it be these off base, greedy charismaniacs, or one's own pastor, who they think can do no wrong or have no wrong doctrine in him because he is "so godly". TEST ALL THINGS...........TEST ALL TEACHINGS. Paul admired the Bereans who questioned him............he did not berate them for doing so, saying that his teachings were above reproach. FLEE from those who have such an attitude for that is NOT of God.............Good will come from this, I know! Blessings.......... |
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contend4thef8th
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For bible banging Hey bible banging, you said, "Well I got to go now I am being summoned to one of my weekly trips to heaven. Watch for my new web site, building program, books, DVD's, tv program, prayer cloth, newsletter, etc., etc., etc. For a small donation I will tell you of my weekly trips about what Moses and I talked about. For an added bonus I will talk in King James English." Great satire. It is satire, right? ;) This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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kgoldenk
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... RahmMyin said [ My sister and I were just talking about the great falling away that will happen towards the end, and we both wondered if the falling away will actually be a falling toward, toward churches that are led by ministers who might fit the description in Revelation as the great prostitute who lies with the Beast. Will there be a massive church attended by millions upon millions who are to the body of Christ as a mistress is to an earthly husband--a whore, a vessel of lust and greed, a destroyer of the true marriage bond of a beloved and her husband? We're thinking this might be what is really happening. If it is, the real question we should be asking is this: to which church to I belong? The true Bride, or the mistress? iyn said ] I have believed something like this for several years now. That the GREAT FALLING AWAY is not as we would think, that Christians would be leaving the church and becoming unbelievers, but that the false doctrines that have infilterated the church - THRO the tares that the enemy has planted - are what has attracted many believers and THUS the GREAT FALLING AWAY is within the confines of the church world. We are seeing the GREAT FALLING AWAY happening right before our eyes. It is not a matter of TB's divorce only, that is a symptom of deeper and more troubling DOCTRINES. Remember the BASIC DOCTRINE is corrupt. WE ARE NOT GODS. CHRIST IS GOD, WE ARE HIS SHEEP. GOD IS THE CREATOR, WE ARE THE CREATION. Many of these people have been so filled with pride they cannot SEE anymore. I watched TBN last night and 'Cliffton...?" was proclaiming that WE ARE LITTLE GODS, thus we should think higher of ourselves. His guest was talking about how LAZARUS who lied at the rich man's gate was a begger and covered with sores BECAUSE HE DIDN'T ACCEPT THE TRUTH OF HIS STATURE..If he accepted that he was a GOD, then he would have lived inside the rich man's house and had GOD's angels licking his sores, not the dogs. HOW APPALLING! Of course, the whole thing came down to money. IT IS OUTRAGEOUS! And what is MORE outrageous is that the audience were standing and applauding this FOOLISHNESS! GOD HELP US! [........Again I say: We know all this, we know who these people are, many comments prove that GOD IS OPENING PEOPLES EYES, so what are we to do CHURCH.? My advise is as follows: GET OUR FOCUS BACK ON JESUS, PRAY AND FIND HIS WILL FOR YOU INDIVIDUALLY> QUIT GIVING and SUPPORTING THESE PEOPLE... PUT YOUR MONEY AND TIME TO WORK IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITIES. BE HONEST. FLEE YOUTHFUL LUSTS. GO BACK TO THE KISS METHOD... "KEEP IT SIMPLE SAINTS"... DON'T FALL FOR THEIR GNOSTIC TEACHINGS, PORTALS, THIRD HEAVEN SCENIC TRIPS. GEMS, DUST, FEATHERS... etc... BELIEVE THE LORD FOR A MIGHT MOVE OF HIS SPIRIT... BACK TO THE BASICS... PREACH THE WORD, HEAL THE SICK, CAST OUT DEVILS.. FREELY YOU HAVE RECEIVED, FREELY GIVE... HOW SIMPLE IS THAT!......] |
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SingingOwl
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How Long, O Lord? I wonder how long the Lord will continue to allow these kinds of blatant arrogance and pride to continue. Not forever. Lee, I am praying for your continued strength and protection. As for Rick Joyner, et al, they are losing credibility fast. |
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justdrew
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... Rick uses the word " I " .... 22 TIMES in his letter.... think about it ... ( I , me ... my self ) and uses the word " YOU " .... 22 TIMES in his letter ( accusing ) ok .... thats just weird that they are exactly the same amount of "YOU" AND " I " |
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bible banging
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... Good job, Lee! The bible is the final authority in these matters. To many Christians run after experiences rather than spending quanity and quality time in the bible. And if Jesus is the Word how much time are we spending in Jesus? Christians to often don't judge these moves by the Word but by how it made them feel. We don't need any Word from God if it's already written in the bible. Well I got to go nowI am being summoned to one of my weekly trips to heaven. Watch for my new web site, building program, books, DVD's, tv program, prayer cloth, newsletter, etc., etc., etc. For a small donation I will tell you of my weekly trips about what Moses and I talked about. For an added bonus I will talk in King James English. |
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charilewis
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Lee has built something Um - just feel I need to point out that Lee Grady has built an international ministry. He is at the forefront of the fight to bring equality to women in the church. He's written books on the subject, he teaches at seminars, he leads men in repentance for how they have used the bible to treat women in a way God never intended, and he has brought healing to thousands of women around the world. His ministry may not have walls, but it is unfair of Rick Joyner to accuse Lee of not having "built" a ministry and being "unworthy" of passing judgement on Todd's situation. In fact, Mr Grady, has also helped build a second, large and successful ministry you may have heard of: Charisma magazine. Not only is he the editor, but he also writes a very compelling, watchdog article every two weeks. As a journalist, it is his job to be a "watchman" for the church. I, for one, am thankful that he is walking the wall, looking out for all of us. |
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Robingael
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This is only the beginning I hope everyone who has written on these forums in disgust of what is being crammed down the throats of those in the body of Christ will not go back to "life as usual" but will do some serious study and research as to what Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Bob Jones, Bill Johnson, NAR and company are actually teaching. Wake up church and get serious about God's unchanging Word. These false teachers would intimidate us into "choosing" if we are "blue" or "gray" in their contrived "civil war." No, it is YOU RJ and company that must choose what you base your faith on...your "new definition of Christianity" with the "new thing," Latter Rain indoctrination...esoteric, metaphysical experiences...or God's eternal Word... Psalm 138:2...You have magnified Your word above all Your name. Church, do not listen to the hype mongers who would tell you that if you question or refuse their "manifestations" as a proof that God is doing a "new thing" that you are going "against" the Holy Spirit. They would have you check your brain in at the door (gray matter) and seduce you into believing what is contrived and made up because they have no understanding of what is true or false in the realm of spiritual forces. Jeremiah 14:14 And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. Hear is a good site with valuable insight on this whole Dominion/Latter Rain deception. Please look at "Adrift in the River." It is a compelling testimony of Mishel's stay at Morningstar.www.deceptionbytes.com 2Tim 2:16 But shun profane and idle babbling, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 2Tim 3:13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. "Judge not, that you be not judged". In the Greek verb, that form of "judge" is "krino": pronouncing a sentence or executing that which has been determined. Jesus said, judge (krino) not. Don't you give the sentence or execute before the time. The second Greek verb is "diakrino," which denotes arbitrating and deciding by way of being discriminate. In other words, 'THINK!" The third,"Anakrino," means to examine, investigate and question. We ought to examine, that is, to inspect or scrutinize with care. To test for fitness, to consider, discuss, explore, interrogate, observe, overhaul, ponder, ransack, search, study, try, view, weigh, inquire and compare. The Apostle Paul says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth (anakrino) all things..." (I Corinthians 2:15) This includes judging the false prophet, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge (anakrino)." (I Corinthians 14:29) Thanks to Bishop Robert E Smith, Sr., from Strong Words About Deception |
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contend4thef8th
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For Rahmyan Rahmyan said, "They are God's to judge, not ours." Actually, it is our responsibility to judge sin in the body of Christ. To shirk such duty is to disobey Jesus. |
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Word
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Word Lee, I groaned too when I read your article. For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17 |
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Globalgospel
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greasy grace trajedy The REAL trajedy re: "greasy grace" is- UNTIL one finds out what PRIMARILY that distinctly new doctrine which the gentile prophet Balaam taught the gentile King Balak? Only until then one is always offbase in dialogues and arguments on this subject, especially now which the disgruntled, the divorced (or considered divorced), the jilted, the angry, the revengefull, the bitter, within and without this "prophetic movement" and the vast majority of the hits on this thread continue on and on (having never come to grips with the REAL Biblical Balaam story)? |
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Rahmiyn
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... Good article, Lee. Looking at the Charisma Poll here, I wonder if the questions themselves reveal why we struggle with such issues in the body of Christ. We are called to not judge, to extend the same hand of grace to others that God in his grace, through tremendous cost to his Son Jesus. But, we are also instructed on whom we gather together with, whom we take spiritual guidance and instruction from. We must follow Jesus in all he commanded to the best of our ability, with God's help. And in this journey, we must align ourselves to others of like mind. Should we forgive? Yes. Should we extend the hand of grace to those in the body who have sinned? Absolutely. They are God's to judge, not ours. But, should we appoint them as our spiritual leaders? No. Part of the restoration process, imo, should involve restoring one's soul, not position. Repentance is putting off old ways, and sometimes, leadership is one of those old things that, like the love of money, can become the root of much evil. My sister and I were just talking about the great falling away that will happen towards the end, and we both wondered if the falling away will actually be a falling toward, toward churches that are led by ministers who might fit the description in Revelation as the great prostitute who lies with the Beast. Will there be a massive church attended by millions upon millions who are to the body of Christ as a mistress is to an earthly husband--a whore, a vessel of lust and greed, a destroyer of the true marriage bond of a beloved and her husband? We're thinking this might be what is really happening. If it is, the real question we should be asking is this: to which church to I belong? The true Bride, or the mistress? |
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stevejenks911
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J. Lee, if the foundation of the building is rotten, it makes no difference how beautiful the building on top of it. Rick Joyner states in his letter that because you have not built a large ministry like his, you have no grounds to question the doctrines and practices of the modern prophetic movement. Mr. Joyner, if the large ministry you have built is founded on aberrant doctrines and false spirituality, don't you have enough humility to at least allow examination of it? That kind of argumentation indicates how elitist the leadership of the modern "prophetic" movement has become. "Don't even question us!" If anyone does question their doctrines and practices and fruit, the questioner is immediately marginalized as having a religious demon or being a "heresy-hunter". J. Lee--I continue to encourage you, as an influential voice, push until this mess is cleaned up and we get purity in the movement. How many more examples do we need before we see that something MAJOR is wrong with the entire foundation of the prophetic movement? Art Katz said it best: Paul Cain is not an aberration--he is a symptom that something is drastically wrong with the entire foundation of the movement. I repeat my previous statement: It is amazing that the leadership of the prophetic movement can discern that J. Lee Grady and everyone else who dares question the movement's practices and doctrines "sounds like the accuser of the brethren", yet cannot discern that the guy they endorse on God TV is involved with adultery and lying from the pulpit. Or that Bob Jones was involved with sexual "impropriety" in the late 90's and Paul Cain was a practising homosexual and alcoholic for decades. God TV said "any criticism of Todd Bentley is satanic"--are you kidding? That statement IS SATANIC! Again, what example do we receive from the modern charismatic movement? Don't question, don't examine, don't test--the Bereans must have all had religious demons. When Paul confronted Peter over withdrawing from the Gentile believers, Peter must have discerned the voice of the accuser in Paul and rebuked him and said to Paul, "Hey Paul, nobody gave YOU the keys to the kingdom--you ARE a pharisee and probably have a religious demon, you heresy-hunter!!" No, Peter was humble enough to repent. In the meantime, we are led into strong delusion that we are able to generate 3rd heaven experiences at will and opening our children to second heaven deception. J. Lee--as an influential voice, please light a path for us to leave this satanic circus. We want Christ and Him crucified as our life. Thanks for your stand. Don't let the leadership of this movement try and "buffalo" you into looking the other way. Someone should stand up and ask why the guys (I exclude Jack Deere from this statement--he's great) who were publicly endorsing Bentley on God TV are now performing his "restoration". Todd Bentley: I love you bro, but taking responsibility means you forever renounce your adulterous relationship and go and be reconciled to your wife Shonna and your children. Not trade them in for a younger model like someone in a middle age crisis. Please consider that. --stevejenks911 |
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tclark
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lastblast said:Contend, I think the problem with the scrunched paragraphs is the way this is set up. I tried to separate mine, but when I submitted it, there were no spaces on the final product. I've noticed the same thing. The script that processes user submissions strips adjacent newlines, and aggressively filters markup, so I don't know if anything can be done to improve the output. This line follows a quote block with a single space inside, so we'll see if that works... |
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edrog
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Brevity I would like to second the request for brevity and grammar. No need to preach the whole sermon when most everything has been said repeatedly. The long, run-on dialogues are difficult to read and probably are skipped by most. That said, the comments are important and the debate needs to be aired. No need to dump the whole load in one spot! |
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All4J
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The Saul syndrome --Who's to blame? Thank you Michael! What a precious word! Yes, the first WILL be last; and whosoever wants to be great must be a servant first. As the old saying goes: “The people get the government they deserve.” When we point our finger at someone, there are 3 fingers pointing right back at us. (Try it.) As it was in the days of Saul... The people were not content with their God alone, who was invisible and seemed so distant at times. So they wanted a king, a leader they could worship and hold in high esteem. A real person with flesh and bones, someone they could see and touch. Someone who would speak to them; someone they could be proud of and admire. We have created our own false prophets and leaders. We are the ones who have financed and supported their kingdoms. May the Lord forgive us for committing such adultery and idolatry! We will not be ready for a true prophet as long as we are not right and content in our own personal relationship with Christ. Some people even question the need for prophets today since we now have the Holy Spirit and God’s written Word, which is prophetic in many ways. Is it not the flesh that desires to look to a “person” rather than being content with the Holy Spirit and the Bible as guidance? God only knows when we are ready (mature!) to discern a real from a false prophet! Mario C. Alleckna |
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lastblast
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... Awesome word, Michael, thank you! Contend, I think the problem with the scrunched paragraphs is the way this is set up. I tried to separate mine, but when I submitted it, there were no spaces on the final product...............Blessings.......... |
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mcc
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Stand Firm Lee I very much appreciated the article Lee wrote, and abhorred the poorly founded rebuke by Rick Joyner. The scripture says let God Be true and every man a liar, and that God is no respecter of persons. The truth does not conform to every mans idea of what is right or wrong, the truth is eternal, either you conform to it, or you will be judged by it. For some years I have watched the prophetic movement move farther and farther away from the Holy Scripture, The Fear of the Lord, The centrality of Jesus Christ, Godly Character, and watched Flesh glorying in the presence of the Lord as Men build their kingdoms, beg shamelessly, and justify and promote their ministries by a few low level signs that seldom fulfill the mandate spoken of in Isaiah 61, and fulfilled by the Lord Jesus ... The spirit of the Lord is upon me for "The Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek, to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives. the recovery of sight to the blind ,the opening of prison to them that are bound... that is the true expression of the Holy Spirit, not gold dust, feathers etc etc, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentelness, Goodness,, Meekness, Temperance, and Faith . Those who are full of the spirit of God have supernatural discernment. I will tell you we face a most perilous time in our land, and as in the days of Jeremiah the prophet, and the days of Micaiah the prophet, the majority of prophets today are crying peace,peace, and prosperity while terrible crisis looms on the horizon. We must prepare our hearts for suffering and to stand in the face of adversity like our brethren in China, North Korea, Indonesia and dozens of other countries. We are sorely disillusioned if we think American christian's are going from the pot luck to heaven, while the rest of the world bleeds for their faith. Beloved return to the the ancient paths of repentance, the fear of the Lord, a deep foundation in the Scripture, and remember what the Lord said about real leadership in the church ...... The greatest among you will be the servant of all...The good shepherd is the one who lays down his life for the flock..... never as lords over Gods heritage but ensamples to the flock... remember also that the hirelings will flee when the wolf comes. When we face crisis and persecution in this land, the word of so many of today's prophets will become instantly irrelevant. Be encouraged true followers of Jesus, as God's people will yet have their finest hour, His light is greater than darkness, His truth greater than lies, His Life is greater than death, and Ishmael always proceeds Isaac. God will have a people who will come out of the wilderness dealings and righteously represent Him in this last hour in a far greater glory than the early church ever knew, we haven't yet seen the kind of men and women God is yet to reveal, but there will be no shortcuts, as the Lord will have 24 carat gold in the character and heart of this people. And because they will seek only the honor of their God, they will be entrusted with great anointings. Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of Heaven but he that does the will of my Father which is in Heaven. God Bless You Brethren, Michael |
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contend4thef8th
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Forgive me for being a fuddy duddy But does anyone know what a paragraph is anymore? So many comments are just one long, long run on sentences. I know many have posted great stuff, but I stop reading soon after a few sentences because it's hard to read where one topic (idea, concept) ends and another begins, thus, I believe, loosing the primary emphasis the writer intended. Forgive this old fuddy duddy, but please make it easier on the eyes by remembering your English grammar. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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calmwhisper
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To Heather C I know what it reads sometimes, but you have to understand that Todd and those who supported him during this time who knew of his compensity to sin mocked the reality and the preciousness of God and His Holy Presence. This has affected our sensibilities. You see Heather, many of us, if not all believe that God is a Holy, Sovereign, Righteous and Jealous God. He spoke through His word that we reap what we sew and it seems that Todd and those around him are doing exactly that. I know God also warns us not to judge and many of these sound like it, even mine in the past may, but we judge the fruit of the person and those surrounding him. It is very clear by the way Todd mocked the Holy Spirit that his credibility would be in high question. One thing I do not get is how the world counted him as a mocker and an imposter, but the church as a whole could not see it and many still don't. That to me is scary when a group that proclaims to love God so deeply have not a holy fear of Him or no sense to uphold and defend the Holiness of God from the mockery that these men have brought forth. Divorce or no divorce, Todd Bentley has reaped what He has sewn and many who have followed him blindly have also. I am praying for you, because if you are who I think you are, you will be reaping it very soon in ways you will be so sorrowful for. God disciplines those He loves, remember that. If you are not experiencing that discipline yet and do not in the future, I would check my position with Him. Anyone can worship, but a true child of God will be disciplined, especially if they have participated in any way with someone or ministry who has mocked God and His Presence and the precious sacrifice of Jesus. |
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stevejenks911
said:
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Todd Bentley, Paul Cain, Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard (and the list goes on and on) are only symptoms! I realize there are many wonderful exceptions to the broad generalizations I state here and I bless those exceptions. Those exceptions constitute the REAL church of Jesus Christ. With that caveat in place, we have to realize something: the people named in the title are only SYMPTOMS of the real problem: US. Leonard Ravenhill said he believed only 2-3 % of all professing Christians in America are actually saved. I hope his estimate is not on the high side. False teachers, false signs and wonders, false prophets, false apostles, and false brethren exist and flourish in our midst because, as a whole, we are biblically illiterate or only semi-literate. A century plus of dispensationalism has stripped the Holy Spirit of His main tool to cleanse our hearts and make way for Christ to come in: REPENTANCE. We have reduced salvation to "say the sinners' prayer and be sincere" and we'll pronounce you saved. Moral relativism and it's grandchild post-modernism have so overrun the church, we now think doctrine and teaching of doctrine is evil. Most of our sermons seem nothing more than humanism dressed in Christian-ese aimed at getting our best life now. Of course we're overrun with deception and falsehood: we have abandoned the faith and turned salvation itself into a virtual magic spell. We have a need for "sozo" ministry because the "gospel" we preach rarely saves anyone! If you read early church history, they actually OBEYED the apostles' teaching: Acts 2:38. The church fathers recorded that demons came out of people during water baptism. I've attended many water baptisms (which is now reduced to a mere symbolic act with no power in it, as Paul prophesied!) and never seen anything like that. Forget correcting the "prophetic" movement, we don't even really get people SAVED. And when God overrules and actually does save someone (despite our faulty methodology), that salvation gives the lie to all the other false conversions we need to repent of. This is why I call I John chapter 3 one of the BANNED chapters in the bible as far as pulpit preaching is concerned: if we preached that as it is written, probably 75 % of the regular professing Christians in our churches would leave. Seriously, in 25 years of being in charismatic circles and being in touch with many other streams, I have probably heard 6 sermons on 1 John 3 and two of those were trying to explain why 1 John 3 does not actually mean what it says. Today, if we even question the entire system of how we administer the salvation process to someone, leaders come out of the woodwork telling us not to touch the system! The whole system, including the prophetic/charismatic/apostolic movements, says, "Don't test, don't discern, don't examine..." If you do, we'll marginalize you by branding you as having a religious demon or being a heresy hunter or being a Pharisee. God deliver us! WE WILL NOT HAVE REAL REVIVAL UNTIL WE FIRST HAVE A MAJOR REFORMATION IN THE CHURCH. This reformation will probably have to be of a higher order than that of Luther, Calvin, Melancthon, Zwingli, etc. Someone said to J. Lee Grady the charismatic movement so lacks discernment, it would AID antichrist when he comes on the scene. I do not believe that statement goes far enough: if we don't repent and reform, I believe we will actually PRODUCE his false prophet. (I know there is a legitimate argument as to whether or not the false prophet is a separate entity from antichrist. But is he is separate, the modern prophetic movement may very well produce him.) |
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gwilliams
said:
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An Assignment from Hell Those in the occult are very well aware of Todd Bentley. He practices witchcraft and was sent on assignment to bring havoc to the body of Christ with false doctrine while at the same time raking in millions of dollars. The very first time I heard the sound of the so-called "Lakeland Revival" on a neighbors TV, I cringed and said, "What is that sound?" I knew immediately it was not a Godly sound and this is well before any revelation of sin in the camp. I was stunned at the lack of discernment in the body of Christ. However, I came to understand that people are starved for a move of God that they will latch onto anything that comes along remoting looking like "revival." After I left my neighbors house, I began researching and learned of Todd Bentley's angel, "Emma." From research, I learned that there are NO female angels named in the Bible. But, there is a witchcraft angel by the name of Emma-O who is the gate-keeper of Hell who lives in gold and silver. Next, I discovered that Bentley's tatoos were recent and that he was tatooed after a nervous breakdown. At a closer look at the tattoos, I discovered they were demonic symbols. Then, I watched Bentley's so-called ministry at the "Lakeland Revival." It was profane - hitting, punching, knocking teeth out, etc. And, where was the discernment of the "Prophets." They were all standing on the platform, crowning him the great revivalist miracle worker. WHERE WAS THE DISCERNMENT? Now, Mr. Bentley has within the last 9 months divorced his wife and remarried. Quick work. Question: How can someone be restored without repentance? There is no fruit meet for repentance. Mr. Bentley continued in his sinful path, divorced his wife, and married his girl-friend. Again, I ask, how can someone be restored who has not repented. Mr. Grady is right on. Thank God someone has the righteous indignation and courage to speak out. Mr. Joyner is way off base and he himself needs to repent for adding to this debacle. Where is the fear of the Lord? Yes, God is a gracious God. But, He is a RIGHTEOUS GOD. In the eyes of God, Mr. Bentley willfully refused to repent and be restored to his wife and children. He willfully refused Godly counsel. He willfully divorced his wife, knowing God's law concerning marriage. He willfully married another woman, knowing that God's law prohibits remarriage in his case. According to the Word of God, Mr. Bentley is an adulterer who has NOT turned from his sinful ways but has run to them. Now, I repeat, members of the occult know who Todd Bentley is. He is on assignment from the occult. I pray that he get saved and delivered. But, let's discern between Godly and unGodly, righteous and unrighteous, light and darkness, good and evil, etc. The good Lord gave us a capacity to be fruit inspectors. Mr. Bentley's fruit is NOT good. |
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pssue
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Woe Rick, I was praying about the Todd Bentley restoration thing and felt a heaviness come over me. I enquired of the Lord in regards to the heaviness and this is what I heard. Woe! Rick, Woe! I again asked the Lord what He was saying, I was led to Isaiah 5:20-23. After reading these passages, I believe I heard the Lord say, “Rick has entered into a season of Woes.” This word saddens me. Restoration for Todd is good but the way you are directing the process is filled with great error. Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! ·The Church cannot afford to call evil actions good, and good actions evil; we cannot excuse the one, and reproach the other; or that call evil men good, and good men evil. ·We cannot reject the true worship of God, which is repentance and holiness. ·We cannot pronounce the causes of bad men good, and of good men evil. ·We cannot speak in praise of drunkenness, gluttony, and all carnal pleasures, and fleshly lusts, and treat with contempt fear, worship, and service of God. ·There is great a difference between good and evil, as between light and darkness, sweet and bitter; and it suggests, as if the perversion of these things was not merely through ignorance and mistake, but purposely and wilfully against light and knowledge. ·Will the church leaders, except the bitter root of error, rather than the words of Christ's mouth. ·Woe to them that say to the wicked who prosper in this world, ye are good; and say to the meek, ye are wicked . Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! ·How can the leaders of our day betray such stupidity as to call things by their wrong names; and make such a perverse judgments. ·How can the leaders of our day leave the word of God, and following the traditions of the evil men. Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: ·Rick, you seem to be intoxicated with evil spirits. ·In your own strength you have taken on a fallen brother for you own glory. ·You seem to have the focus of one man while forgetting the country. ·Your strength has been weakened like that of a drunken man. ·Can the body of Christ afford to have another man in the pulpit that lacks the character of God? ·The Scribes and Pharisees loved the cup and the platter, and to be at feasts, and to have the uppermost seats there, Mattthew_23:6. What are your intentions? Where are you going with this Todd Bentley restoration process? ·Todd’s restoration need not be displayed like a circus that just came into town unless you want him back behind the pulpit soon. He is not ready for that and will not be ready for that for a long time. Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! ·Will you take away the voice of those who oppose what you are doing? ·Will you be angry with us like you are with Lee Grady? ·Will you pronounced those who oppose you wicked, and condemned them to death. ·Will you take away the voice of the righteous, by taking away their character from them as righteous persons among men; though their righteousness itself can not be taken away, it being an everlasting one. ·There is a remnant in this world that God is raising up and their voices will be heard. ·God always has a remnant in the Earth. A people of character, holiness and who are willing to walk in His ways. ·If we sin we disqualify ourselves. If we do not address sin as in the case of Eli and his evil sons we therefore disqualify ourselves from being part of the remnant. |
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stevejenks911
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Dear J. Lee--we need a voice! Keep going after this stuff until we get the REAL prophetic restored! If you read the manual on false prophets (Jeremiah 23), you'll notice one thing: they validate one another. Just by setting ourselves up as the restoration of the prophetic and apostolic movements, we defacto claim to be the eyes and ears of the body of Christ. I find it interesting that some of the same guys who were on stage with Todd on God TV endorsing and blessing the Lakeland outpouring are now involved with his "restoration". Isn't that a slight conflict of interest? I call this the charismatic two-step--everytime one of these guys is exposed, the others cover their own backsides by circling the wagons to minimize the damage done to the movement by the fallen's sin(s). If they are prophets and apostles as we (and it is OUR collective fault!) set them up to be, why are these major leaders unable to see what a nobody like me and others were able to see and warn against when Lakeland first broke out? How many more Paul Cains and Benny Hinns do we need before we cry out to the Lord to repent of our Laodicean blindness and cry to God to bring major reformation to us? Paul Cain, Benny Hinn, and Todd Bentley are only symptoms. I do grieve for these men. The real problem is US!! I met and briefly spoke with Todd 6-7 years ago at a conference--I love the guy. My opinion is he has gotten way off. He can be restored, no question. However, the REAL question is why are we as a movement that claims to be the "cutting edge" of what God is doing in the world SO BLIND? We make a great deal of noise, have thousands of "prophets" and hundreds of "apostles" in America and 10-15 major conferences a year, yet our nation burns down around us in gross sin and the only time the world notices us is when we have a major scandal. We're rich!!--we have apostles and prophets and signs and wonders and healings and gold dust and gemstones and feathers AND NO IMPACT ON THE LOST WORLD AROUND US. God, please save us from this strong delusion. We want wheat, no more of the tares of the Toronto/Anaheim/Pasadena/Pensacola/Lakeland psuedo-revivals. By the way, before you condemn my comments, I am a product of the Anaheim "renewal" movement. I put 75,000 miles on my car in 1.25 yrs going to renewal meetings. Finally, I began to realize it's falseness when I saw people roaring like lions, barking like dogs, and slithering around on the ground like snakes and the leadership up on stage saying this was still "God". I thank God the Vineyard had enough discernment to throw it out on it's ear. Folks, we don't have enough spiritual stature or power with God to stop gay marriage or abortion or usher in a SINGLE REAL REVIVAL. Why? Because, despite all of our noise and manifestations, we are not a holy people. We are a badly deceived people. And I praise God an influential voice like J. Lee Grady is in place to herald truth: because the leadership of the prophetic/charismatic/apostolic movement today immediately marginalizes anyone who dares question the doctrines and practices of this cabal. It amazes me the leadership of the "prophetic" movement can discern religious demons, Pharisee-ism, and legalistic attitudes in anyone who dares question them, but cannot tell when one of the founding fathers of the movement is an alcoholic and a practising homosexual for decades. Why is it Todd Bentley's ministry board refuses to call his relationship outside his marriage ADULTERY! "Inappropriate relationship" almost sounds like the euphemisms a certain ex-president used with a certain intern. J. Lee--the question is not whether you sound like "the accuser of the brethren", but are you telling the truth and are you asking the questions that must be asked?! We want reality in Christ--not a satanic circus that has the enemy laughing all the way to hell. Please don't back down--act in love, but don't back down! I know at least a few of us are sick of this whole sham! Where is our discernment? It is at the same level as our collective holiness and separateness from the world--no wonder we can't see. May God save us from this and give us reality: please Lord Jesus, send conviction of sin and some eye salve. --A concerned Laodicean |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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me said, no not me me again, the other me again. me said, "The Lord told me this morning that Bentley and Shonnah are like Annanias and Sapphira, both of them are greedy for gain." While it was a very BIG mistake for Shonnah to be up on that stage in Lakeland knowing her husband's weakness and infidelity. You cannot fully blame her. Too many spouses, when they begin to question their mate's "unusual" behaviour, feel preasured. As if they are complaining against God Himself. Their spouse is "God's anointed" so-called. So to question and doubt them cause marital stress. Also, if she vocalizes it to the leadership, chances are they may try to hush it up. Especially if the person with TB like status. To be fair the Fresh Fire Ministry (ichabod) had him on sabbatical, but he just had sex with another women and was a drunkard. He "stopped" for the time so they let him loose on the public. Spouses of people like TB, RJ, et, al. are encouraged, (yes, pressured) to be quiet. I would not be surprised if they use guilt on her, "Do you want to destroy a work of God?" So, she could have easily walked out, but it is hard for a normal women with kids. Much more harder when the woman has a handicap and children. So judge Shonnah less harshly. And pray for her and the kids. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Zecheriah
said:
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It's The Doctrine Stupid! You've all heard: "It's the Economy Stupid!" Need I say more or can't you all see that they (Joyner and the list goes on) make it up as they go and then Lead by Lording? Robingael good one on the 50 Ways to Leave Your Leader, when are we all going to read the memo that we can just STOP SUPPORTING these leaders? On the writer who said something about "selling" on the forum my questions to you are if you ever recommend anything from toothpaste to a good place to eat? It was a recommendation by word of mouth and almost the entire book I recommended is available for FREE on the blog link I gave. No one is forcing anything on anyone here but people are reaching out to one another to try and help our hurting and abused souls. Unfortunately, to begin healing we first need to identify the problem. By the way if you don't know we are ALL promoting Charisma Magazine by posting on this comment page. Why do you think they have fourms and comment pages set up anyway? Do you have any solutions to share, if so the Body of Christ is waiting because at this sad time REPENTANCE and a new way of doing things is sorely needed! |
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Robingael
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re: Babylonbasher and getting shoved to the ground... For you from the UK that was physically pushed to the ground: I have a close friend that lived in Kansas City for years, and attended a Todd Bentley meeting...before the tattoos. She was in the "ministry line" when TB came by, and he put he his hand on her forehead and really slammed her onto the floor. She hurt her hip in the process. She also said the feeling of the whole thing was just violent. Nothing at all Godly about the whole meeting. So you are not alone with this! Does it not amaze you that so many of these so called "leaders" promote this stuff? Then again, maybe not...$$$$$$$can make deluded self centered people do all kinds of things that eventually will expose them to be common prostitutes. When I think of history and of the number of pathological narcissist that have been heralded as leaders and heroes until thousands or millions of people lost their lives because of them, none of us should be shocked at how depraved the human soul can be, and what they will do to attain their own means. In TB's case, he never really underwent a process of true healing and forming a foundation upon the Scripture and a right relationship with God. His mentors were just as unstable as he is. Since his ties with the demonic realm were never completely severed, his problems became worse until I am afraid he appears to have mental problems. That is not uncommon when one has open doors to the demonic realm. Keep praying he gets completely delivered, and that he finds some stable, mature believers to mentor him. Right now, he does not have that. |
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All4J
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Link Hunters Supernaturally Forced to Hunt To all of you mature people who are somehow feeling forced to spend time exploring links under someone's name, I hereby renounce the obviously very disturbing link under my name. But here is a WARNING: Do not click on the following link, it might be a product, a book, or even a magazine: http://www.charismamag.com/ind...asy-grace. Mario C. Alleckna PS: I love your obvious sense of humor. Too bad you didn't have time to read my article since you were so busy checking out the link under my name. |
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All4J
said:
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Death by Entertainment We must realize that our Christian walk is not about the flashy (fleshy), party style gatherings and spiritual experiences. Instead, it’s all about Jesus being at the center of a humble and rather un-spectacular life of loving and serving others. That’s it! Doesn’t sound very exciting does it? But that is exactly what it’s all about; loving and serving. Especially in our Hollywood influenced and saturated western world, there is such a hunger to be entertained. There seems to be an ever growing energy drawing people to lust after being entertained 24/7. I call it “Death by Entertainment”. Every year people spend billions of dollars on entertainment. Unfortunately, wanting to be entertained has, in a very subtle way, infiltrated the church. We have fancy stage performances with professional bands and costly sound systems, and professional preachers, tickling our ears with messages of how God just wants to bless us. We have been brainwashed to think that we should ride into Heaven in a fancy Mercedes when Jesus rode on a donkey. We have been brainwashed to think that the Christian life is a great, fun-fun, party with a constant feast. And then, when we go to Heaven, we’ll have the feast of feasts. We have been brainwashed to becoming selective readers, picking out the raisins from the Scriptures. Meanwhile, in other parts of this world, Christians are suffering persecution, hunger and terrible afflictions. We have been brainwashed to think that, as Christians, we are entitled, we “deserve” whatever our flesh desires. We have forgotten that our flesh is evil. We have been blinded to think that the narrow way is a street of gold and silver, an easy walk in the park. (Tell that to a Christian brother in Vietnam!) We have yielded to the spirit of compromise and adultery with the world: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God”(Js.4:4). G. Campbell-Morgan who wrote these very challenging words: “If the church of God in the cities of today were aloof from the maxims of the age, separated from the materialistic philosophies of the schools, bearing her witness alone to the all sufficiency of Christ and the perfection of His salvation, even though persecuted and ostracized and bruised, it would be to the church that men would look in the hour of their heart break and sorrow and national need. The reason why men do not look to the church today, is that she has destroyed her own influence by compromise.” “Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Eph. 5:14). Mario C. Alleckna "http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0539.html" "http://www.amazon.com/Awakening The Sleeping-Giant" |
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tclark
said:
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opps Let me see if I can get the link working... http://www.amazon.com/Merchand...1880089084 |
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tclark
said:
me said:John Arnott has allowed the gold dust lies, the gemstones lies, the portal lies, the Emma lies, all the lies going on now about oil stigmata, translation back in time, angelic visitations with Swift, Charismac, and Emma and even supports them. Last year I read Merchandising the Anointing, by Rick Renner. I highly recommend this book; it deals with many of the issues we are discussing here. It's about 15 years old now, and primarily covers Lucy Rael's stigmata and "angel feathers," but it's amazing how little some things have changed since the book was written. Be sure to click through on the Look Inside icon. http://www.amazon.com/Merchandising-Anointing-Rick-Renner/dp/1880089084 |
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me
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... Contend, I don't blame John Arnott entirely. But partially because he put Todd in the pulpit and heard him preach his lies about gem dust, Emma, Paul's cabin, translations back in time and to other countries, sowing money into the glory, etc for ten years and did nothing. He shouldn't have put him in the pulpit. He laid hands on Todd so he has shared in his sins, just like the Word says. The Word says lay hands suddenly on no man so as not to partake in their sins. Todd Bentley was very young in the Lord when he began his ministry, like two or three years old, so he should never been allowed to have a ministry. Paul said don't put novices in the pulpit. Bentley, however, was placed in the pulpit and it was premature. He should have been tested and observed for character. And when he started preaching Emma and sow money into the glory he should have been kicked out of the holy pulpit, which belongs to the LOrd God Almighty not Rick Joyner. God will remove Rick Joyner if he does not repent of this wickedness; now I type by the Spirit of God. Rick Joyner is partaking in Bentley's sins now because Bentley is still a liar. He has not repented for his sins. The Lord told me this morning that Bentley and Shonnah are like Annanias and Sapphira, both of them are greedy for gain. The bible says God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Why is Bentley going through so much trouble from people like me and others who speak out against his lies, because this is Father resisting the proud, the proud being Bentley. He is an arrogant liar, divorcing his wife and fornicating with Jessa. He has no business in the pulpit. God brought him down and God wants him down. You think I am harsh? No, the Lord wants his church protected from this con artist. He is a con artist. He used to sell miracle handkerchiefs. He told tall spiritual tales in order to build his ministry. His ministry is built on straw only. As for Arnot, he is to blame for part of this and has yet to apologize. I too was blessed by the Toronto Blessing years ago but I have to separate that from what is happening now. John Arnott has allowed the gold dust lies, the gemstones lies, the portal lies, the Emma lies, all the lies going on now about oil stigmata, translation back in time, angelic visitations with Swift, Charismac, and Emma and even supports them. He has wandered from the true Spirit and has embraced a lie. He needs to repent. I write this with grief because Toronto used to be so glorious. Yet now it stinks to high heaven. Most of the ministers circulating the NAR churches are money and fame hungry thieves who also tell lies of supernatural visitations. They lie to make their ministries fly in the NAR realm. It is all wickedness. Yes, how I long for the days of early Toronto. But that's in the past. John Arnott put Bentley in the pulpit years ago and he needs to repent for that. He, however, remains passively silent while the church rots in the stench of Bentley manure. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Trumpet Calls Whether one believes in last blast or first blast or all 100 blasts inbetween for their call to "come up hither", it makes no difference, the facts remain NO "GREASY" GRACE adherents are included in "Feast of Trumpets" celebrations for the repentant ONLY who have "made their robes white" (AND ALSO have not allowed them to become spotted or wrinkled thru lack of repentence still). That awesome "DAY of atonement" as to this Earth does not need any future fullfillments (i.e. 7 days trib., 3+ days trib.) nor proof of any trib. promised for this planet, either past, present or future. Bible prophesy does NOT limit fulfillments to this tiny blue marble ONLY |
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All4J
said:
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Is the era of Christian “stage shows” coming to an end? I personally attended a few of these “high-profile” conferences in the past. At one of these gatherings in Todd Bentley’s hometown in Canada, aside from Rick Joiner and Todd himself, the Chavda’s were invited to speak. Bonnie Chavda was asked to take the offering. She spent literally 45min.! pushing the money thing with guilt-trip approaches and explaining how, if we don’t give generously, these African Kids in a movie clip showing Todd on stage in Uganda would not hear the gospel. On top of that, she then asked the huge audience to fill Todd’s pastor’s wallet to bless him for the work he’d done in Todd’s life. The wallet went throughout the whole place. There were two middle-aged ladies sitting a couple of rows ahead of me who, after about 30 min. of Bonnie’s push for money, jumped up and loudly voiced their disgust while leaving. I strongly feel that Rick Joiner and his “apostolic” club members, have not understood the severity of what it means to defile such a position in God’s church. “The nice and shiny vehicle that carried God’s Holy Spirit had an accident. Let’s quickly take out the dents and repaint it, so we can keep on driving on the high road of success.” I think not! Have we no concept of God’s Holiness, and the high standard by which one must abide when employed to lead His people? Obviously not! Where was the basic discernment when sharing the stage with a man who claimed to be a representative of Jesus while living in sin? Mr. Joiner, if he would have any understanding of the extent of the damage done to the image of the Christian church, would be quick to apologize for such a lack of discernment. Instead, he is degrading Mr. Grady as someone who is un-qualified to point out errors in the charismatic movement. However, the Christians who sponsor and finance these spiritual high-rollers are to blame as well; for their blindness and thirst in attending and supporting these spiritual gifting shows. Just as the Israelites, when leaving Egypt, focused on Moses instead of focusing on God; people today still focus too much on people, i.e. seemingly gifted (anointed) leaders. When the Israelites’ god (Moses) didn’t come down from the mountain for some time, they built themselves a new god, a golden calf. I believe the towers and pedestals we built for our leaders are crumbling and coming down! “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.” (Matt.21:12/13) Mario C. Alleckna "http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0539.html" "http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Sleeping-Giant" |
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lastblast
said:
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Global Global, I would remind you that NONE of the early Christian writers/fathers (AnteNicene) wrote about any "pretrib" rapture of the saints. They ALL wrote about the church (aka--the Body of Christ) suffering under the persecution of anti-christ. Did they believe in imminency? Yes, but not in the way it is taught in many churches today. Many of them believed that THEY would see the rise of anti-christ and suffer under his hand until Jesus came to rescue His saints. I have seen through many years now where people will argue that the church has always taught a pre-trib rapture. Not true by any stretch of the imagination. I know for a fact because I did LOTS of checking/study and what I found in the Ante-Nicene writings of the church (the earliest writings) was that there NEVER was spoken a pre-trib rapture. It really IS a new teaching. Don't believe me though, check it out yourself. For me, it is one of the many things the Lord has shown me is false doctrine in the church today.............and it is very destructive, giving false hope instead of building up the saints to "endure to the end"................The rapture teaching with it's "escapist" mentality, the prosperity gospel, miracle seekers/charlatans, etc all do one very destructive thing: they all take our minds off of Jesus and OUR role in this life to bring HIM Glory, and fix our eyes upon our self and our fleshly, earthly desires. I praise the Lord for the faithful saints before us who endured to the end, fighting the good fight of faith with no concern about their physical lives, only desiring to live for Jesus and bring many into the eternal kingdom. They are our role models. Those we have seen who are here for "me" in this life..............bigger and better, more and more (whether it be the lauds of men or worldly riches ), they are getting their reward................I pray such repent before even more are led away from Jesus ............................ |
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All4J
said:
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FEAR OF THE LORD lost with GREASY GRACE One subject that becomes amplified specifically when dealing with fallen leaders, is the widely ignored issue of the fear of the Lord. Our love for Jesus can only be true if it co-exists with a deep sense of respect for our Saviour and His values: “Only fear the Lord, and serve Him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things He hath done for you”(1Sam.12:24). “For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him”(Ps.103:11). “He will fulfil the desire of them that fear Him”(Ps.145:19). “The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear Him”(Ps.147:11). “Happy is the man that feareth always”(Prov.28:14). The Lord isn’t just a compassionate, forgiving and loving father-friend. As the God of the whole universe, He is also a great King and Ruler, who is almighty in His power! Most of us like to embrace only the attributes of love and compassion we see in God, not realizing that it is His other characteristic that will free us from the devil: “The lion hath roared, who will not fear? The Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy”(Amos 3:8)? To fear the Lord, which is nothing other than the result of a mature understanding of His sovereignty, is something that seems to have been swallowed up in our modern day church by a deceptive concept of God's grace. Misinterpreting His love and mercy, many believers (including those in ministry) have concluded that some of the Lord’s principles and commands are mere suggestions and therefore optional, (surveys, showing that the divorce rate among Christian couples is higher than with non believers, confirms this). The over-emphasis that is placed on God’s grace has caused a terrible imbalance in today’s teachings. Vital issues such as repentance and the fear of the Lord are not easily addressed in an environment created for comfort. “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”(Matt.10:34). Like it or not, the almighty, righteous and sovereign God of the whole universe does not fit into a box with “grace only” written on it! We need to realize that just because Jesus brought salvation to us doesn’t mean that God's Holy standards and values have changed. He still hates sin, and a lukewarm Christian walk makes Him feel as sick today, as it did during the time of the Laodicean Church. Culminating in a widespread laissez faire attitude regarding our Christian conduct, our lack of such a Holy fear has caused us to drop our guard, subjecting ourselves to all kinds of evil attacks such as self-exaltation and a focus on money. Reading a recent post by Rick Joiner's ministry, ( “... donations to help with the restoration of Todd Bentley can be made to...”), one can only conclude that money is viewed as important as ever in these Christian circles (clubs?). Ah, the sweet allure of FAME and MONEY. Simon the sorcerer sure knew how God's precious gifts could benefit him financially. Mr. Bentley should perhaps consider a quiet, non-flashy, nine-to-five job as a way of finding restoration. The Bible never said that, simply just lving a humble, Christian life and earning a living in a regular job, would be a problem. Mario C. Alleckna http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0539.html http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Sleeping-Giant |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Paul on judging 'gulls' (seabirds as 'angelic' feeders upon highways & byways salvation nets) Does anyone have any doubt that Paul was a Pentecostal (after Damascus Rd onward?) and that he only wrote to his Pentecostal converts? In his letters he says, in so many words, we now pentecostals are just getting our starting blocks straitened out for to run that race FROM here to eternity. This earth, in those coming last of the last days, would be known for true Pentecostals (under Jesus and Paul teachings) as just the beginnings in "judging ANGELS" (yes, even here on this tiny blue marble), yes, even before "rapture". Only the "Saints" then(found 'without' spot or wrinkle) would be "raptured" to meet HIM 'in the air' about the time of finalizations of these things on this planet (Blood cursed eternally, yet people being saved FROM here, yes also by His Blood). These "angels" who are now being "judged" by the 'initial' bride of Christ are those who have completely taken over these 'last days' of the 'gatherings' of the 'called out' ones. Both Jesus and Paul warned soon after they have vacated this place, the 'grievous' would become manifest, eventually, even in those final Pentecostal gatherings. Notice it's the "angels" Pentecostals are to be "judging" and NOT the people (who are the 'gathered' in the 'nets' of final days 'harvest time', yet under the obvious downloading voices of these "angels" being brought into last days 'judgment'). Keep in mind those who have not heard the call for preparation for that soon coming "SHOUT"- "to come UP hither", those who distain any talk of "rapture", cannot yet be expected to heed Jesus, nor Paul, nor the Holy Spirit of PROMISE of last days, this beginnings of "judging" of "ANGELS" whom the Angels over the 7 Churches not only orchestrate thru "rapture" BUT will also finale HERE the "sorting out" of ALL these gospel "nets" filled with people eventually desiring also escape! |
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Robingael
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There Must Be 50 Ways to Leave Your "Leaders" Are you under an ungodly influence from the likes of Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson, Patricia King, Bob Jones...? Have you been controlled, bamboozled, lied to,sheeka shoomba BAMMED! ....? There must be 50 ways to leave your "leaders".... just slip out the back Jack, make a new plan Stan, just get yourself free..... |
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contend4thef8th
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s307kingsly, "I left the Charismatic movement years ago" Jesus gave the church Spiritual gifts for the benefit of the saints (us). Read Ephesians 4. That Spiritual gifts was and always will be abused (since Corinthian church) is no excuse to ignore them all or just embrace one over the other. The offices (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor & teacher) have also been abused along with the spiritual gifts. But abuse does not make them obsolete. If anything, we need real apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors & teachers to stand on the Word. Have you neglected any of your Spiritual gifts, then I encourage you to follow Paul's advice to Timothy, and "stir up" your gift for the sake of the elect (us again). You don't have to join a Charismatic movement again. You can have one right in your own living room. Ministering to the saints (hey, that's us again). IMHO, I have always suspected that the Charasmatic movement, Third Wave, etc. Is really God's way to sift the wheat from the tares. It's the falling away of the false from the real (us, hmmm. there's a pattern here about us). It does not disqualifies the gifts and those truly gifted, just shows us the abusers and users while the REAL stand their ground. Blessings. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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To me, Not me me, the other me. Every person on that stage that gave their apostolic blessing to Todd at Lakeland has seriously hurt their reputation. As apostles they should have had discernment, maybe they did, but thought it was an accusations by the devil. So they did not inquire. Or, perhaps they did "discerned" but how do you turn off Lakeland w/o starting a riot. And the christians there would have rioted. (I'm not defending TB, just explaining) You can't blame John Arnott 100%. You need to blame each man on the stage 100% each for not doing their duty as "apostles." Peter Wagnor is a blood sucker. He'll attach himself to anything that moves that will put him centre stage somewhere. As for Arnott. I was blessed by what happened at the "Toronto Blessing" even got baptized in the Spirit after God removed my stumbling blocks. I have seen a lot of good things and bad things there but no church is perfect or w/o sin. TACF will be judged accordingly as every other church will be. Not just because of TB alone, but for the way they operate, using God's finances and resources. What to make of all this? Throw the baby out with the bath water because of RJ and TB? No. Paul, who speaks for God said in 1 Thessalonian 5 19-22, "19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit. 20 Do not scoff at prophecies, 21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. 22 Stay away from every kind of evil." This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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s307kingsley
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I'm Encouraged! Being sickened by the fleshly glory of men, I left the Charismatic movement years ago. I quit reading Charisma magazine too. But, because of the media attention drawn to this Bentley fiasco, I found Grady's article. If the comments here are consistent with the discernment and moral force pressing its case against the fanatics in the movement, I'm encouraged. There are some great posts here, appropriate posts. I embrace the healing ministry, but it wasn't a spiritual gift that died on the cross for our salvation. Gifts of grace are given to glorify Christ's complete and perfect work done for us by His passion and resurrection. They're given to accompany and confirm the preaching of the Gospel. They're meant to direct us to the object of our worship (Christ), not to become the object and not to the glory of a man or woman whom grace has gifted. But that's what has happened, repeatedly. So, true to His manner, the Lord has allowed us, in Todd Bentley (and others), to see what comes of such error. In this case, the corrupt fruit fell from the branch and dropped to the ground. Leave it there. The Lord is working at pruning the branch. I'm encouraged to see what He is doing. |
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contend4thef8th
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STOP The Selling I am appaled that there are some here who are using this issue to "sell" for their book, ministry, poetry, and web site. Shame. Makes you no better than RJ & TB, experts. |
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kgoldenk
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... me said: Wake up. Read your bible. Quit defending sin. Todd Bentley was exposed by Father and that was Father's love toward His body. He is trying to protect us but people like you and Joyner do the opposite. You don't know the fear of God or the heart of God. You are professional ministers out for money and ego. YES, me, this is where the church has gone so far astray. IF we NEED any type of MOVE OF THE SPIRIT in this day, it is a MOVE toward REPENTANCE first and formost. May we ALL PRAY GOD to bring REPENTANCE and HOLY LIVING back into the body of Christ. IF we have any sort of REVIVAL, may it be a true CRYING OUT over our SINS. Some years ago I had a book that is long gone now, but the title was what stuck in my mind ever since. The title is "WHATEVER BECAME OF SIN"... Can't remember who it was by. BUT it is true in this day... Even those who are highly esteemed by some, do NOT take responsibility for SIN anymore. YES, God is gracious, AND merciful, but we cannot USE the grace of God to continue in our own sin. IF the LEADERS are failing, then the FOLLOWERS they are producing will have the same attitudes, and beliefs also. May the LORD open the eyes of those who are deceived by these teachings. I cry out to the Lord, " IN JUDGEMENT, REMEMBER MERCY." |
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me
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... To Heather C: Are you Heather Clark? The one that ministers with Bob Jones? If so, I get it now. You seem to not know the God you worship too well. He hates sin. Todd Bentley is a liar. He lied for years before Lakeland. Lied about sowing money into the glory, oil stigmata, gold and diamond dust falling, angels giving him supernatural character, being translated back in time then to Europe then to Africa (all in one day!), going to heaven and seeing Paul's little cabin, Paul saying that Abraham helped Paul write Hebrews, God telling him to kick a man with cancer in the tummy (God didn't do that), and so forth. This man has been lying for over a decade, making up tales about visitations and such to gain a following. He pulled the wool over John Arnott's eyes that's for sure. John Arnott owes the whole body an apology for allowing this guy in the pulpit in the first place. John missed God and doesn't have much discernment. He is a nice guy but that isn't enough in these times. Heather, Todd has been lying for years. He has been stealing money for years. God brought him down and doesn't want him lifted back up. If you cannot see that, you are blind. You lead worship for and with lots of these NAR con men and your greasy grace is not the oil of the Lord. The disciplinary oil of the Lord burns. Todd Bentley needs rebuke and humility. He needs to get a job and stay out of the pulpit. For land's sake, do you really want such a brazen liar in the pulpit? He is a liar and has been lying for over a decade. He is a con man. Love rebukes. Love exposes snakes and wolves. Wake up. Read your bible. Quit defending sin. Todd Bentley was exposed by Father and that was Father's love toward His body. He is trying to protect us but people like you and Joyner do the opposite. You don't know the fear of God or the heart of God. You are professional ministers out for money and ego. I am so angry with people like you who push liars and lies. All of you need to repent. Satan brought in the gold dust and gemstones. Rebuke it and withdraw from it. |
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StevePage
said:
...but the Lord WAS there in Lakeland doing many wonderful things among His people, regardless of anything else that might have occurred or been said there. Worship was also very good. "2 Corinthians 11:13 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." Here's a question. Should we accept and support "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ" because they did good things while "masquerading"? Because certainly those "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ" will indeed do good works and people will believe them. Some will even have their faith strengthen by what the "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ" say and do. Does that mean we should accept and restore them?" |
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Erin
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“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.” Luke 16:18 His remarriage is not accepted by God. He is living in adultery! Check out what God has to say about divorce and remarriage. “A husband must not divorce his wife.” 1 Corinthians 7:11 because; “The Lord was witness to the covenant made at your marriage.” Malachi 2:14 which binds a man to his wife for life; “A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives.” 1 Corinthians 7:39 and because; “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.” Luke 16:18 Therefore, if a man divorces his wife and marries another he becomes an adulterer; “Thou shall not commit adultery.” Exodus 20:14 “The man who commits adultery is an utter fool, for he destroys his own soul.” Proverbs 6:32 “Adulterers…will not inherit the Kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9 A divorce does not free a man from his wife because; “A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives.” 1 Corinthians 7:39 Man invented no fault divorce. Divorce does not dissolve a marriage covenant. Jesus calls remarriage adultery. No legitimate marriage is ever called adultery. What God Has Joined Together, Let No Man Separate! This Is A Command From Jesus Christ Adultery is identified in every passage where the remarriage of divorced persons is mentioned. Now is the time for the church to speak up on what the Bible has to say about divorce and remarriage before another generation is deceived. The Bible clearly says that whenever remarriage occurs, adultery results, and that is pretty clear to every Bible reader. In Romans 7:2 we are clearly told why the remarriage of divorced persons is adultery. It is adultery because the first marriage is still binding. “A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives.” Since she is bound to him as long as he lives, all other relationships are adultery. This is easy to understand. People talk in our day about “ending” marriages. But that is impossible to do, you can’t do it. It is not divorce, but death, that ends marriages. The only thing that divorce does is, make a new relationship adultery and while remarriage is legal in the eyes of the government, it is illegal to God. As long as a former mate is living, the original marriage union is secure in God’s eyes–and that is the State of Marriage. When one of the married partners separates from the other and joins himself to someone else, that does not free him from the state of marriage that he is in with his first wife, but instead, it enters him into a state of adultery. Proverbs 28:13 makes it clear that God wants all of us to turn from sinful living. John the Baptist lost his head defending this principle. Mark 6:17-18 tells how John the Baptist had said that it was not lawful for Herod to have his brother’s wife after a divorce. Herodias, was legally divorced by Roman law, and newly married to Herod Antipas, but John still said to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have her.” after they were remarried. Brothers and Sisters, don’t go shopping around for someone to justify what Jesus Christ clearly and repeatedly condemned. God has not changed His law to allow a man who has stolen another man’s wife to keep her. Nor has He changed His law to allow a woman who has seduced a husband away from his wife and children to keep someone else’s husband. Nor will He join two people in a God condemned wedding ceremony. It is important to notice that neither the Gospel of Mark, nor the Gospel of John recognized Herod’s second marriage as valid. In Mark 6:17 it describes the woman as “his brother Philip’s wife,” after a divorce. He called her Phillip’s wife after she was divorced. That is whose wife she was, even though Herod had married her. The divorce did not end the marriage. She did not become Herod’s wife upon remarriage. Herod was living with her in adultery; she was still Philip’s wife. God does not recognize the second marriage because the first marriage is binding until death. That is an eternal principle settled in the eternal counsels of God. From God’s point of view, all first marriages are binding, and can be broken only by death. Divorce does not dissolve the “bond” of marriage. If it did, there would be no adultery in a remarriage. The Bible condemns remarriage after a divorce. Every faithful disciple of Christ needs to speak God’s truth about marriage and show people, according to Scripture, that they are bound to their first spouse as long as they live. We must help them see the truth and keep them out of adultery, because… Adulterers do not inherit the Kingdom of God. http://www.marriagedivorce.com |
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Golda
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Rick Joyner is dangerous to your spirit and soul. [[These men have led movements and have been proven to hear the Lord's voice...]] He was degrading Paul in his book 'The Final Quest'. Imo, not even the devil will have the courage to attack Paul. His revelations on first, second and third heaven is some rubbish and not at all true. I wonder, if he is really hearing from the Holy Spirit. Do not trust any of his revelations. They may corrupt your spirit. http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/27/rick-joyner-the-apostle-paul-and-the-antichrist [[Give us some time, and some grace]] Or give us some money?? Be strong Lee Grady. Keep up the good work. |
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aa
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re ferroresonant ?'s I do not know the answers to your questions. Our church does not discuss blow by blow details of TB's behaviour. There were many, many people who were deeply hurt by this. Initially a 'town hall meeting' was held to discuss how people were feeling. One of the former associates suggested that we should all pray off any 'impartations' we might have received from Todd since he was not right in his walk. People were deeply offended and wanted to sever all ties with FFM. However, as I said at the time, we had to remember there were a lot of little orphans in Africa also counting on us. Nor was the ministry just one man. There were countless other students, interns, partners, staff, who were going to need our love, prayers and support. We all prayed earnestly for Todd to reconcile to his wife and children. We continued to pray for several months. In the meantime, our leaders had to deal with the fall out while negotiating with Todd concerning the ministry. This resulted in staff layoffs and a shift in the board due to conflict of interest concerns since Shonnah and her family were involved in the ministry. While we were not privy to all the details, we know that our leaders did their best to protect all those hurt in this process. It was an extremely difficult and painful experience for them to have to lose valued staff and friends. We all were tired of hearing about Todd or reading stuff in our local papers thanks to his deliberately baiting the media. What on earth could he have been thinking to have challenged the media while living this blatant lie? It was completely delusional to think that his sin would not find him out. I don't care about the timetable. The fact that it happened is disgusting enough without turning it into a TV soap of "As The Stomach Turns" or "The Edge of Night: Lights out on Lakeland" weekly episode. Our church does not wink at sin. We severed ties with him when he was still refusing to come back to Canada and deal with the matter. He has never been back to our church to offer an apology preferring to hide while trying to hang on to the ministry. Our leaders have shouldered the load out of respect and love for us. They have shielded us from as much of this scandal as they have been able. Nor do we bother Shonnah, but we respect her privacy and pray for her and the children privately. Other than this, we are in the process of healing and moving on. I know our leaders would not restore Todd to ministry given his track record and lack of insight into the injury he has caused. |
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Mannamaribeth
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... Having read all 184 comments I found missing any reference to Rick's character as it was reflected in his espousal of the Knights of Malta and his arrogant disregard for accountability in calling down the wrath of God on anyone ' silly enough and rebellious enough ' to question HIS account of what HE says, God said. My husband and I have spent upwards of 15 years researching and investigating Free Masonry which in the final analysis embraces the Luciferian Doctrine that Lucifer is the Light and Jesus Christ the evil dark brother. What would lead Holy Spirit filled believers to believe that the God who cautioned us to, 'abstain from all appearance of evil' 1 Thes 5;22 would instruct Joyner to join a group with a name that symbolizes the darkest of abominations and evil in order to find more power from God? The very name of the group, whether the secret society Joyner embraces is actually the second last degree of the York Right: Prince of St John or Malta, second last only to the Knights Templar, or some other organization, by it's very name, he is forbidden to associate with it. Jehovah does not need to bathe his Word in the name of the enemy for credibility. Furthermore, Joyner led his cohorts into the same deception and immediately Ichabod happened and they began to grow more and more weird. The attitude, arrogance and stiff-necked gracelessness found in Joyner's letter to Grady are in full keeping with his attitudes back in the early 90's when sincere Christians questioned him then. They reveal the true carnality of his character. He wields the Word of God with great eloquence and power but no humility or holiness. He may claim to have credibility by way of his organization but there are lots of organizations in the US today- both secular and religious that are falling and falling hard, having been built on avarice and sin. It troubled us how, especially folks from the Vineyard, deified Joyner in the early 90's especially, as though he was the last great prophet on earth. They also worshipped Paul Cain, and Mahesh Chavda to a lesser degree. To what extent such misplaced hero-worship allowed the enemy this power to deceive and bear false fruit, I can't say but it was absolutely no surprise to hear the real Joyner railing on the godly, humble Grady from his high pulpit of straw. Regarding Todd's lying: I want to tell you that I was personally at TACF when Arnotts were helping Bentley get started in ministry. In the mid to late 90's Todd DID NOT HAVE OBSERVABLE TATTOOS.... so right off the start he lied.... He DID NOT get them BEFORE he became a believer. Why did these leaders allow those lies to be accepted with no accountability? Many, many thanks to Lee Grady for pointing out that the Emperor(s) has (have) no Clothes, while the false prophets are still out there trying to hock the same clothes to the gullible. This group of self proclaimed prophets are dangerous to the body and should be avoided at all costs. God help us. It's not surprising that more than 10% of people who said they were Christians a few years ago no longer are. Who can bear the wounds inflicted upon the body of Christ. The references to Eli, Hophni and Phineas are well noted. Eli covered the sin of his sons the way pastors and leaders sweep the sins of the so-called prophets under the rug for the joy of having the 'glory' rub off on them, while the true spiritual descendants of Hophni and Phineas continue to rob the body for their own personal gain. May our Lord come quickly and stop the blasphemous abominations taking place in His own House lest none of us survive the war from within. In the meantime, keeping our lamps lit with truth and wisdom of Holy Spirit, full of the true Word- Logos and Rhema which MUST agree- is all that will keep us from being deceived. |
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branchflower
said:
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THANK YOU! I just wanted to personally thank you for your article on Todd Bentley. I have been so grieved in my spirit at the way leadership are treating the restoration process in the church. As if "ministry" was the objective to restoration! I know brother Joyner is protecting his interest(asset) in Bentley. The prophetic movement always had the prophesies and visions, but Bentley gave them the signs and wonders they needed to add credibility to their move. I believe they have much from the Lord, but the way this has been handled is atrocious. You are a man of God and I applaud you for your boldness and gentleness in writing about this matter. What Rick Joyner did was attack you with all he has, accusing you of being a pharisee, which YOU ARE NOT. You did not attack Todd or Rick Joyner in your article. What happened was a tragedy. My heart has grieved over the fallen and my desire is to see them in right relationship to the Lord. I would have much rather seen Todd be a man and reconcile with his wife and children, than cop out. He initiated the divorce, he followed through, he remarried, he left his family, AND NOW HE IS READY TO BE RESTORED? What a great example! He talked about showing the body of Christ what restoration looked like by doing this video series. I believe there is restoration with the Lord for Todd, absolutely! But restoration and ministry are different things. That is just psycho. Could you imagine the book of Acts if we could read it today? The Apostle Paul had a great revival in Corinth, but then he ran off with some girl. Stephen was doing signs and wonders and everybody was in awe, and then he faked a disease while hiding an addiction to porn. Timothy built a megachurch and then he and his wife divorced because they were going "separate ways". Barnabas encouraged the brethren in all the churches, but then he ran off with millions of dollars. Peter was on the housetop waiting for dinner and arranged a meeting with a male prostitute and some meth. James was running the church in Jerusalem and was working over little boys on the side. Come on leaders, as a pastor myself, isn't grace more powerful than that? I am an ex drug addict, porn addict, hater of life and people, who loves Jesus with all of my heart! The last thing I would ever want to do is sin like that and act like I am a victim! I SLIPPED! Sin on that level takes careful strategy and planning, it isn't SLIPPING! It is intentional, and you better believe the HOLY SPIRIT screams on the inside of you when you start down that road! I have been walking with God for 12 years and haven't been perfect, but I don't ever excuse my sin, and yes I have stayed away from all the junk (it is more than possible)! I haven't had some weird influence come over me about what happened when I was 12 years old. I am not trying to reconcile my past, I am a new creature in Christ! Please pray with us as we ask Jesus to raise up a new caliber of leader, who will walk in integrity and humility! We do not want signs and wonders with adultery, fornication and familiar spirits! God give us a Holy Spirit infused move that will shake this nation, we are desperate! We will not settle for less! Be bold my brother, you are standing on holy ground! I esteem you in the Lord more than ever for being willing to take the heat to bring true strength to the body! Your brother in Christ! Pastor Joseph |
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Robingael
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RJ and His Rat Pack RJ has truly done us a favor revealing the real man that most have never seen. At least I hear Lee Grady is willing to change and take another direction from this pack of arrogant deceivers. I hope all of you reading these comments will go the following links suggested by Zecheriah. I am familiar with this book, and it is a must read!! There is a book out there that none of these leaders want you to read It can be found at http://www.slm.org/pubs/ccbook.html or you can go to the blog with excerpts of the book at http://charismatic-captivation.blogspot.com We need to get the whole picture, and take a stand for what is happening in the church world. Do not put off getting real with God, being sure of who you are in Christ, and learning to hear from HIM YOURSELF. Get free of the control freaks and their spiritual prostitution, as I have written here before about TB teaching others techniques of manipulation that involves the psychic realm...occult spirits. These people are submerged in deceit and witchcraft. The Lord will bless you and strengthen you as you research and get into the Word! We are going to need it for what is coming upon this nation... 1Thess. 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. ... You have magnified Your word above all Your name. Psalm138:2 |
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russnrvr
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Stand Strong Do not back down from those crying Grace, Grace! The Body of Christ is in need of the true Prophets of God more than ever. The Spirit of God is grieved over this issue in the church and demands holiness. Judgement does start at the house of God, does it not? The church needs Righteous judgement and you have indeed heard the heart of God on the matter. |
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wolfie
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... Hi, I just wanted to say that after reading the two letters by Lee Grady and Rick Joyner, I honestly have to say that Rick Joyner sure seems to be the one lacking in grace. His letter is rude and insulting and he seems like a man who is desperate to cover his reputation or something. In my opinion, Lee Grady speaks the truth, and while truth hurts, it's the only way healing begins. I don't think the truth about Todd Bentley and Lakeland has been transparent at all. Not in the slightest. Until the light shines into the dark, there is no healing, trust or forgiveness. |
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Robingael
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The Rick Joyner TB Enterprise Mission The Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Bill Johnson debacle grieves the heart of God. I hope for their sake, maybe even their own salvation, that they turn away and do serious repentance of having submitted themselves to the fallen spirit realms, and allowing themselves to be influenced by the psychic realm that they manipulate and call signs and wonders. It is setting up many for the One World Church deception and the antichrist deception. Many are being “primed” for it through these false prophets. So many in this "movement" I am sure find it quite difficult to change their habits. It is no secret really that by exercising one's soul power (called "kundalini" in India) that it is possible to greatly enhance one's personality and project it upon unsuspecting recipients, whipping up trancelike experiences and manifestations, and even bringing about healings. (also falling and screaming and jerking, hysterical laughing, burning sensations, electricity going through the body, etc) The "yogis" in India have been doing it for many many years. The sensuality of these experiences sure captivates many, and brings the crowds back for more, like a drug. So truly I feel for you Rick, to walk away from an enterprise featuring Todd Bentley would mean the loss of much $$$$. I was into all this stuff many years ago, and God took me out of it. It meant going through His refining fire, and it was very difficult with much anguish of my soul. I love HIM more than my own life, so that's the way it is. But as He has given me the gift of discerning of spirits, me and others like me that saw from the beginning of Lakeland what was going on were amazed that so many will continue on in this deception. It is truly like a drug...they clamor for more. The first night I watched TB on the stage with Jessa holding the mic, I asked my husband to come to the computer screen and take a look at this. I said I did not know who the babe was, but there was a spirit of adultery there that was nauseating to look at. It repulsed me. I sure do not go looking for this type of stuff, and it is a pain to look at it. The best analogy I can think of concerning this type of thing relates to the years I spent training horses. When I went out into a paddock or into a stall to collect a horse, I did not look for horse crap to step in, but it happened. It went with the territory. Regarding having a "mixture" and acquiescing to those who would deliver to us a little of God's Word, a little humanism, a bit of occult magic and soul power...mixing all together and presenting it to us to drink. Nowhere in scripture do we find a tolerance for presenting the gospel with a "mixture"! If someone offered you a half glass of pure drinking water, and then added sewage to it, would you drink it? Would you drink it if they tried to convince you that after all half of it is clean? Isaiah 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." Don't believe any clown that tells you that "if you have the spirit, you no longer need to study the scripture." The Word and the Spirit are inseparable! These people are deluded deceivers, and seduce the immature and vulnerable. ... You have magnified Your word above all Your name. Psalm138:2 |
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Zecheriah
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Cracks in Rick Joyner's Organized-Crime Ring! All of you out there that can't believe how self-aggrandizing Rick Joyner was in this recent letter to Lee Grady, you should know that Rick Joyner and the like, have been acting like this for years upon years, this is nothing new. Scores of people have been abused by these church leaders, it's just that the leaders are now experiencing cracks in their "organized-crime" ring and can no longer control the leaks. Many other blogs well document the intricate "family tree" that shows how they are all related (Lee Grady included) through un-authorized and un-godly covenants, and many of you have already written in and posted these links for all of you in the Body of Christ to do your due diligence, so there is no need for me to write any more on how all of these people belong to the same "mob". There is a book out there that none of these leaders want you to read It can be found at http://www.slm.org/pubs/ccbook.html or you can go to the blog with excerpts of the book at http://charismatic-captivation.blogspot.com The first edition of this book was written in 1986 and it gives a full history of when and where all of this private kingdom building began by these self-appointed leaders of the charismatic church. It also gives a road map to recovery and WHY all of us in the body of Christ desperately need to get free from this enslavement at the hands of these leaders. Maybe someone could get a copy to Rick Joyner and his gang! These same leaders have attempted to continually and systematically shut the ministry of the author of this book using mob-tactics. In fact, if these leaders could they would do a mob hit on this true servant of Christ, that is how much they hate this book! If you don't believe that, just go back and re-read Rick Joyner's threats in his reply back to Lee Grady! Remember, what Rick Joyner wrote in his "off-the-cuff" response is the TRUE Rick Joyner and what he wrote is just the tip of the iceburg, because what he and his gang have done for all of these years behind the scenes would make all of you too grievious for words! The time is long over due for all of us to start telling the truth and to RISE UP to put a stop to what is an abomination to Jesus and His Church that He is building! |
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lowell-naomi
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... I read your article on Bentley and Joyner's response. I agree with you fully that the Lakeland event was a mess. Particularly when our professed Prophets ordain a ministry with an apparent lack of discernment of the person's walk with the Lord. Joyner's response exhibiting anger must have hit a sore point otherwise he would, or should have, been more objective. When Joyner claims he has a prophetic ministry and makes a blunder such as he did with Bentley and then allows him to establish another ministry before being properly mentored makes one wonder whether Joyner fits the name Prophet. I have been in the pentecostal movement since birth and I have witnessed many "ups and dpwns" but I find it difficult to get excited about some of the ministers who claim the title prophet. Lee, keep up the good work. We need someone with the exposure that will speak the truth without fear. Too many recoil from taking a strong position against ministries that stray from the truth of God's Word because of fear of reprisal. God Bless you. |
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Robingael
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Quest for Truth Here are some excellent web sites to look at that address the Lakeland debacle and other related deception for those of you that take the quest for truth seriously. www.deceptionbytes.com The lady that does this site is very intelligent and accomplished, and has had much experience in the realm of the hyper-charismatic. Through God's grace, He delivered her out of much deception, and from the control freaks that had influence over her. Please read her testimony...Adrift in the River... from her time at Morning Star. There are many others that have testimonies that were involved with that freak farm. www.sapphirethrone.com This is a growing web site, and was started in may 2008 as a result of the Lakeland debacle...a good testimony from one who was in the new-age movement, and an explanation of how the fallen spirit world counterfeits "angels", and how people are drawn into this deception. http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/5f00.0634/5f00.0634.01.htm This is a link to The Latent Power of the Soul by Watchman Nee This book confirmed much to me concerning what is coming from the soul of an individual opposed to what is coming through the spirit of someone who is born again and submitted to God's will. Witchcraft and manipulation, and the door to the real of fallen spirits is activated through one's soul, and it begins in the mind. http://www.arkhaven.org/dominionism_trojan_horse_in_charismatic_movement.htm This is very telling of what is in the charismatic church that very few seem to understand. This sight is also a good source of inf. for those who sense we may be going into a depression. |
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contend4thef8th
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For Tclark Tclark said, "But what I'd like to call attention to is this: the manifestation of the Spirit at Lakeland may have happened despite Todd," That is the typical response of those who support this. Remember the devil can simulate miracles and all kinds of healing's and other spiritual manifestations. In the future the antichrist will be able to do the same. As an added word, the word "anti" does not always mean someone who is opposed to what is real. Remember, he is going to act and behave like Jesus. That's why Jesus warned about running around where people proclaim he is. THAT not everyone visiting Lakeland was able to discern something was wrong (for me, this tells me God is already judging the body of Christ), only a fewdiscerned, and these were shouted down by the "Toddites" there and everywhere else. God's spiritual gifts once given are never taken back, even when the said person falls into depraved sin. This confuses the Charasmatic/Pentecostal types to assume the Lord is with that guy. Hallelujah!. A person man/women can be wonderfully "gifted" Christian but it's their disobedience to Christ which eventually sets them apart from the real Christians. Sadly it seems too many fail in obedience, marrying after a divorce (or other sin). Still having their Spiritual gifts, they presume to think they still have God's anointing still on them. They do have the anointing, from the god of this world has given them his anointing. |
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ferroresonant
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To "aa" Since you refer to the Abbotsford church where Todd and Shonna attended as "our church" (which I take as an implication that you currently attend there), can you please give the exact date when the divorce between Shonna and Todd was legally finalized and do you know if the divorce was decreed in British Columbia or as some Christian internet sites are saying as speculation, Nevada? I ask this only for the purposes of the timeline of events between the Lakeland revival ending and now since Bentley has now 'submitted' to Joyner and relocated to Charlotte, NC. Also, Rick Hiebert at the Western Standard had something to say about the dates of the divorce and marriage stating that it can very easily have been a one day time gap between receiving his divorce papers and remarrying. http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2009/03/todd-bentley-marries-woman-whom-he-had-extramarital-affair-with.html Thanks |
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tclark
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Re: Dr. Whobut the Lord WAS there in Lakeland doing many wonderful things among His people, regardless of anything else that might have occurred or been said there. Worship was also very good. My pastors attended a meeting at Lakeland and reported the same thing; the worship was good, and the Spirit of God was in manifestation. But what I'd like to call attention to is this: the manifestation of the Spirit at Lakeland may have happened despite Todd, and not because of him. Matthew 18:20 says, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." People, hungry for God, gathered from all over the world at those meetings, so I have no doubt that the Spirit of God was in manifestation, at least at times, for the sake of the congregation, But this in itself doesn't validate everything that happened there. One of the most dangerous traps a minister can fall into is to begin to think that the manifestation of the Spirit in their meetings validates their life and ministry. William Branham fell into this trap many years ago, and many others have since then. |
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contend4thef8th
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Thanks for comment s307kingsly You said, "But I would defend the position that we are not to judge people, as in their value or their eternal position. That's God's business. I don't announce people as saved or damned," Paul said when an Elder is caught it sin, he is to be rebuked in front of the entire church. This puts back the healthy fear of God in him that he lost, of which, left himself open to sin. Our value and eternal posistion changes if we continue in sin unrepentant. 1 Corinthian 6:9 takes care of that matter clearly. As for Romans 3, you misquoted that . It refers to our pre-conversion state not our present state as Paul and scriptures proclaim. I am shocked at how many Christians still consider themselves a sinner , when the Word of God declares otherwise. Our position changed before God because of what Jesus did on the cross. That info is in the bible, you know. Sincerely, This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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s307kingsley
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... For contend4thef8th Thanks for the correction on the Scripture reference. It's Ps. 68:18 "You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive: you have received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." It's obviously a forward looking prophetic announcement inferring Christ's victory, ascension, and pouring out of gifts of ministry. As for your rebuke regarding my comment "To Judge or Not to Judge" you must not have read the whole post. I went on to say there are things we are to judge. But I would defend the position that we are not to judge people, as in their value or their eternal position. That's God's business. I don't announce people as saved or damned, I don't know. And as far as their value, Christ's blood was shed for all--that settles that matter. Jesus did say "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you again (Mt. 7:1,2)." I pray God forgives Bentley for his sin of adultery, and you should too. I've never committed that sin, but I've plenty of others God has forgiven. We're all guilty, Romans 3 style. I'm dependent upon the same grace Bentley is, and having received it, I wish it for him. But, as for the consequences due him, God will administer that in this world and at the Judgment Seat of Christ; AND the church has consequences we're commanded to administer. Based on the character standards of Timothy and Titus, church leadership must judge righteously and not put him back in public ministry. That was the point of my previous post. |
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farmgirlcyn
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... And so it is written..."For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Romans 2:24 What Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley (among others) have done is make Christians a laughingstock among the heathen. I am embarrassed that they name themselves believers. |
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Idonthaveaclue
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Personally I really do not understand the anger towards Mr. Joyner or Mr. Bentley, they are working the business, and that is all it has ever been a business. So why do people get mad when they change a marketing plan. The customer has changed so change to. The video is good advertising and with all the blogs buzzing about it they get more advertising. Now I understand that thousands have been deeply hurt. As a Christian who has been hurt I can tell you, we, the small pew sitters mean nothing what so ever to those up the food chain. Basically there are two things that are completely irrelevant in the modern Jesus industry, people and souls. Like the song says Father Son and Holy Ghost they took the last train for the coast. Very sad, completely irrelevant but sad. Thanks Todd Appreciate it. |
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justdrew
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... Actually this is a good thing, lets bring the whole thing into the light, lets let the whole saga and all involved be brought into the light, Gods light. Enough of this elitism and "out there" theology ! Enough of not being accountable ! Enough of self preservation ! More of Fear of God ! More of “Gods” anointing ! Not mans More of Holiness ! More Holy fire from God For it is all about you Jesus ….. not us and our “kingdoms”, but about YOU ! |
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Sue in Fla.
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The Tragic Scandal of Greasy Grace Thank you for speaking the truth boldy. Keep it up!! |
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Naturo Dr J
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Re: Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner - what about the children? While these ( as I call them ) "Designer Prophets" go about their ministry, I ask- what about the children? I have first hand experience as a mother being "left behind" ( c' 4 kids ) by a man who compromised and sought after his life while the kids are left wondering- " what kind of G-D does daddy follow? Almost 10 years later I still have the 4 kids, none of which are following after the heart of G-D. Bitter, angry , confused , one in jail, my kids had their spiritual foundation pulled right out from under them. We came from Church on the Rock in Rockwall, Texas. Daddy years later left ill himself and unable to work. G-d's judgement? Not for me to say, but I do know when you" know the truth", and deliberately and willfully choose to follow after the flesh , you get out from underneath the protective covering of the most high G-D. I never felt good about the Lakeland event. I am so very tired of hearing the name dropping of all " The Designer Prophets", I can hardly listen anymore. .....wisdom...... Focus on the Family had a policy to read the inbox of letters of complaints of their ministry... if they saw a common thread of complaint- the figured the Lord was trying to show them something and they stopped and took note. I'd like to see theses prophets wait and see if there is a commonality in what G-D is saying before they open their mouths! We need the body of Christ to SPEAK UP since we cannot see ourselves that our TAIL LIGHTS ARE OUT!... ....Dr J- Austin , Texas |
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contend4thef8th
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To s307kingsly s307kingsly said, "It's true. We're not to judge, Jesus said it." Boy do you ever have THICK personal filtered bias glasses when it comes to reading God's Word and choosing scripture. Jesus said not to sin? He also said we are to judge righteous judgment. The verse you mention about and the one I did MEAN the same thing. Here is a little something posted by another person about the verse you quoted about not judging. I think it's from Robingael, "Judging - What Matt. 7:1 means: A big part of that is testing what others do and say and studying the Word. I have heard hundreds of times "do not judge"...and those that do not know the Word well do not know what is being said. Below, in Jeremiah's Tears comment, he said what is actually be said, IF we take the time to look: Matt. 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged". In the Greek verb, that form of "judge" is "krino": pronouncing a sentence or executing that which has been determined. Jesus said, judge (krino) not. Don't you give the sentence or execute before the time. The second Greek verb is "diakrino," which denotes arbitrating and deciding by way of being discriminate. In other words, 'THINK!" The third,"Anakrino," means to examine, investigate and question. We ought to examine, that is, to inspect or scrutinize with care. To test for fitness, to consider, discuss, explore, interrogate, observe, overhaul, ponder, ransack, search, study, try, view, weigh, inquire and compare. The Apostle Paul says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth (anakrino) all things..." (I Corinthians 2:15) This includes judging the false prophet, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge (anakrino)." (I Corinthians 14:29)" Enough said. |
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Yinka Jackson
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Rick Joyner's Response I am shocked by the contents of Rick Joyner's letter. It drips so much of pride, anger and arrogance. He was even threatening Lee. That's absolutely unacceptable. One question I want to ask Rick is this: What Has Todd Bentley built? And by the way, I suggest Rick should ask God for understanding for the role of the media ministry in the life of the church. He obviously lacks understanding in this area. I once thought of Rick as a man of God. I have read some of his books and actually thought he was just misguided in his relationship with TB. But after his response to Lee's article, I have serious doubts about this. If I konw Lee well, he will not back down from telling the truth notwithstanding the threat from Rick. |
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kgoldenk
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... Jesuslover said : "I find it interesting that most of the judgment is coming from the sheep and not the shepherds in our movement. Do we not honor our Fathers? Aren't Rick, Bill and Jack considered by many to be Fathers and generals in our movement?" *Yes, we -- SHEEP of CHRIST-- are speaking, only a few 'leaders, like LGrady have the boldness to speak the truth. There is ONLY ONE SHEPHERD - JESUS CHRIST. Many these days (and counting) do NOT accept these men as Fathers. These men/women are proving what they are, what motivates them and how much they think of themselves, with their threatenings and intimidations toward another that doesn't hold their title or position. (Hasn't God chosen the 'foolish things to confound the wise'?) I do regret that it has taken something so serious as TB's infidelities to blow open the whole Lakeland thing, but God knows what HE is doing. The very basis, or core, of their doctrine is corrupt, and any who follows them will be ensnared. Too many SHEEP have been left bleeding and dying alongside the path to glory, eaten prey of these wolves in 'sheep's clothing. They have NO CONSCIENCE. They use any opportunity to fleece the sheep. But they will NEVER GET ENOUGH! My prayer is that the CHURCH will continue to come back to the SIMPLICITY of the GOSPEL of CHRIST and not accept the burdens these men put on the body of Christ. |
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contend4thef8th
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To jesuslover Jesuslover said, "Rick is correct Lee. You do not have the credentials to pass such judgment...These men have led movements and have been proven to hear the Lord's voice...I find it interesting that most of the judgment is coming from the sheep and not the shepherds in our movement. " Every Christian has the credentials given by God to judge sin in the church and judge the leaders if they have two or more witnesses. Is Ephesians 5:10-12 still in your bible? Read all of chapter 5, it's an eye opener. You call yourself jesuslover, yet you are willing to disobey what our Lord says in Matthew 5:31-32. Why? Jesus told the women caught in adultery (John 8: 10-11) to go and sin NO MORE. Every time Todd has sex with his wife, he is committing adultery, his new wife too. Divorce and remarriage is sadly becoming common in the body, yet Jesus said in Matthew 19:8-9 divorce and remarriage is NOT God's plan. Even after a divorce the former marriage vows remain active, even if there is a remarriage to someone else (Romans 7:1-3). As for Todd's, Rick's and Jack's credentials, there are false prophets you know. Their ministry IS NOT proof God has blessed them, even an idiot like L. Ron Hubbard can start a religion or movement. Obedience, that is the proof. Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord and DO NOT the things I say?" Jesuslover, do you obey the Lord? This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For Heather C Heather C, you really are ignorant of what Jesus teaches in the Bible about divorce and remarriage never mind that the Bible has a lot to say about the issue too. We are told to judge sin in the church by God via Paul. Heck, we are even told not to fellowship or eat with such sinning Christians. If YOU truly have the Holy Spirit, He will guide you to the truth about what I said here. Those who claim to have the Spirit, and yet use contrary verses to approve what TB did, just may not have the real Holy Spirit. Why would the real Holy Spirit, who knows the Word, let you be ignorant of the truth written in God's Word? |
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contend4thef8th
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Wrong verse Hey, s307kingsly. There is no Psalm 60:18....thought you should know. It only has 12 verses in the chapter. |
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Globalgospel
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Charismatics are known for "greasy grace" Charismatics brought the doctrine of Balaam (modernCalvinisms, et al) with them again into pentecost. This can be traced also to the 'modern' latter rain 'Elijah list' peoples emerging from John Wimber having vacated Chuck Smith's Jesus Movement which at the very least TRIED to stear away from the pressures of allowing Calvinism to dominate. The 'vineyard movement' was birthed in 'greasy grace' Calvinisms (Doctrine of Balaam). For all this, we now will have all these 'breakups' of Charismatic Churches (even marriages) just as the Montanists also had for over 400 years until the Catholic Church burned all their places of worship. In these last of these last days, ALL places of worship on this planet will be burned, NOW by God's Angels!!!. |
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lastblast
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Jesuslover Jesuslover, JESUS tells us to judge the "fruit" of so called "prophets"(Mt. 7:13-23). The "fruit" of these so-called pro"fits" cannot be denied. Iniquity abounds...........they have shown themselves to be the workers of iniquity that Jesus addresses in Mt. 7..............they say, "Lord, Lord", but they are lawbreakers and/or encouragers of those who will not forsake the ways of the flesh. Let me tell you something. I started out in a Charismatic church----it was the first church I attended after becoming born again. After my husband got a job transfer, we attended another Charismatic church. I have since attended more "conservative" WORD focused churches. There was a GLARING difference in the churches. The biggest difference I saw was CARNALITY in the Charismatic churches. Blatant sin............Broken families are MUCH MORE prevalent in the so-called Spirit filled churches, while in the so-called non-spirit filled churches I saw many more intact original families. Hmmm, which ones are truly SPIRIT filled based upon outward obedience? God hates divorce.....................but..............The fact that Mr. Joyner did not even mention what scripture says(Mt. 19:9, Mk. 10:11, Lk. 16:16-18) about Todd's CURRENT "marriage" speaks volumnes to me as to just how important God's "hard" Word actually is to Mr. Joyner. Mr. JOYNER, you can't restore a brother when he refuses to repent of the adultery he is PRESENTLY IN!! Confession of adultery doesn't change an adulterous relationship into a God-joined covenant marriage! Nowhere in scripture will we find such a teaching. I've looked...........it's not there. In addition, again, how can Mr. Joyner be the one to "restore" Todd when he was his suppporter before, knowing while he was in the pulpit, all kinds of ungodliness was going on...........and he did NOTHING??? Does Mr. Joyner have godly discernment? It does not appear to be the case. http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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ferroresonant
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... Heather C are you Heather Clark? the woman who led some of the worship and did the wacked out dance that they tried to pass off as 'warfare'? If not, your responses parallel her responses to the 'warfare dance' in many ways. |
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s307kingsley
said:
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To Judge or Not to Judge It's true. We're not to judge, Jesus said it. But there is a difference between judging a person (their value as a human and/or their eternal destiny) and judging what they've done. Paul wrote: "1Co 6:3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (1 Cor. 6:3)." In the course of life, in the church and in other affairs, necessity calls upon us to make wise judgments. Concerning the question of authority, Paul said: "If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (1 Cor. 6:4)" When deciding character issues pertaining to who should be fronted in ministry in the church, Paul even went so far as to say the opinion of those outside the church is important: "Moreover he must have a good report of them who are outside ... (1 Ti. 3:7)." And Lee is not taking a pope-ish position here, he simply doing the responsible thing here, calling upon leaders in the charismatic movement to handle this situation responsibly according to Scripture. Our call as Christians is to holiness. Not Pharisaic law keeping, but that real holiness which springs out of relationship with our holy God. He can use anyone or anything to heal the sick. So what if you can cuss, drink, smoke, cheat ... and still be used in healing the sick? That is not God's endorsement of a man's doctrine or character--it's His honoring of His own will and name. Grace isn't the issue in our lives, it what we do with it that counts. |
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me
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... Isn't it all about the money and fame here? On this first restoration progress video Todd said he wanted his restoration to be the greatest ever. I think the guy is in this for the fame and money. I also think he is a big fat liar. He lied about gold dust, oil stigmata, emma, translations to china AND BACK IN TIME, Abraham writing Hebrews, Paul's little wooden cabin, supernatural character replacing sanctification, God telling him to kick a cancer patient in the stomach, eagles flying over lakeland (they weren't), sowing money when the glory falls so you can reap glory, shall I go on? The point of this is that the adultery and drunkeness on alchohol was the last straw God used to bring him down. The NAR church wouldn't pull him off the pulpit because they believed his lies and even promoted them because it fit in with their agenda. So God finally allowed Lakeland to be a chastising moment for them, but it seems they remain clueless. I used to run in NAR circles until the LORD told me to stop attending their churches. I visited one a few weeks ago out of curiousity and got a false prophecy. They mocked the Christmas story and there was no fear of God in the meeting. The Holy Ghost was not there. Now, I visited this same church back in 2006 or so and God was there. But they clearly had gone off track and it seems the glory has left NAR churches in general. How can God bless them when lies of gold dust, oil stigmata, translations back in time, bilocation, multi translation, female angels, angels with names, abound? Lee Grady, why don't you rebuke the whole lot of them? Can't you see what they are doing to the church as a whole? If you think standing by and watching them will work, think again. God has you in your place for such a time as this. It is time to take a stand, a big stand, against this witchcraft. You will be judged eternally for how you handle this. Think carefully. Do you love your magazine or God more? Do you love your job or God more? Will you bow to Steven or Jesus? Will you write for the glory of God or the fake glory of God? Who are you, really? Are you a captain in the army of God or a coward? In this civil war, will you side with truth or lies? If Todd Bentley is not stopped, Satan will use him again to mock the Lord. HE will lie, lie, lie, lie, and lie to regain the crowds and money. And Shonnah, she was a part of the original scam. She was in on it with Todd. It is in her best interest to support him now so the child support will increase as he increases. Don't see her as a victim, please. I don't think Bentley has repented for anything. He started this affair with Jessa in January, before the summer of Lakeland. Two or three years before that he had a different affair and was caught there too. This is two times here. And all of his LIES show he doesn't belong in the pulpit. God didn't give him a ministry. He lied and created fantastical visions that puffed up his preaching. People believed the lies and his ministry grew. That is how most of the NAR preachers do it nowadays. The invent translations and meetings with angels and then promote them. Laypeople ooh and aah over it and get sucked in because they haven't had those visions. It is a con scheme. Most of the NAR preachers are liars. Joshua Mills is the biggest, following Todd Bentley. IT is all a scam. If God shows up in any of their meetings it is only to bless the hungry. But God judged Bentley and removed him from Lakeland, Rick Joyner is rebelling against God by restoring him to the pulpit. Bentley should get a job and leave the public spotlight for good. Joyner's letter was arrogant and it proves that he thinks Grady is just a little guy. There wasn't much respect in the letter. Joyner seemed condescending and it's clear that he thinks Grady isn't too important. Rick Joyner doesn't know the Lord or the Word too well, if he did none of this would be happening. Coward leaders in the Body of Christ will allow this to continue. They will be judged for it in heaven someday. The Lord has called them to rebuke but they won't. The god money holds their mouth shut. The position money holds their mouth shut. The fame and man-pleasing gods hold their tongues. If I leave this earth and the gold dust lie is still abounding, I will be ashamed when I see Jesus. Our calling is to rebuke filth, so rebuke it, Grady. All of it. |
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Whitewashed Walls, Lowly rated comment [Show]
plumbline
said:
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Complicity in sin These leaders that are insisting on "restoring" Todd Bentley are complicit in his sin. They do not want to have Todd Bentley restored to Christ, their interest is purely (or impurely) to merely restore his ministry. If Todd Bentley, and his new "wife", were truly repentant they would have "ceased from sin!" "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." (Mat 19:9; Mar 10:11) I read Mr Joyner's response and it is very apparent that he lacks humility, his arrogance is overwhelming! Repentance involves "Turning away from" not "continuing in" sin! The Holy Spirit has stated; "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, " (1Cor 6:9) "Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. " (Heb 13:4) |
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justdrew
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-- Back when Jesus was on the earth he challenged the Pharisees about their stiff necked approach, yes Jesus challenged them and did not be quiet about what they were doing or thinking, yet now when there is any challenge to what is going on there are those who become arrogant and say who are we to judge?.... From what I can see Lee was asking really relevant questions about the present situation, yet he is shot down by Rick and company, now why can we/ Lee not ask these important questions? To me this “total” freedom of “ Grace” has turned the roles and what I see is that the moment anyone says you can not challenge or question what they believe …they themselves immediately put themselves into the Pharisee camp, and what in essence what they are saying is …”we are right and you are wrong, don’t question us as we have it “ Sounds like Pharisees to me I for one have come to respect Lee as one who is trying to bring forth the truth ... it cant be easy going against what the " men of the hour " are saying or doing, and still stay sane, so from my little old perspective here in darkest Africa i say to Lee ..... Don't quench what the Spirit of God is doing in you and never, never bow to the will or pressure of man, for the time is now upon us when " Grayness " abounds ....where the absolutes and finites of God are being questioned, where being a lighthouse is to prominent and where a dim light is more socially acceptable both in the church and in towards the secular world Andrew |
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Heather C
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WOW I am surprised reading the comments on this page. What I see here is a bunch of man glorifying man. I would like to know just exactly HOW many has prayed over this situation? And I do NOT mean the kind of prayer that invokes your own opinion to God, but truly and sincerely seeking after what God's will is on this situation, sitting and waiting SILENTLY on His answer, and THEN doing what He tells you to do? I find it hard to believe God would tell millions of people to judge and lash out towards ANY of his children. Whether Todd was wrong or right, whether Rick is wrong or right, whether Lee is wrong or right (and really WHO knows other than God what is in someone's heart???) do you really think that God would tell His children to get along with each other in such a way? I don't think so. What I am reminded of is the high priests when Jesus was crucified. And NO, in no way am I comparing any of these men to Jesus. But aren't we supposed to be carrying the Holy Spirit inside of us? I find it hard to believe that Jesus would have us act towards each other with such hate and judgment. The world is to know us by our LOVE. Yes, I also realize that we are living in a time that people will be deceived. Yes, I know that many people's love will grow cold. But do you think the answer to the above is how we have been acting? Todd is God's child. And he deserves forgiveness, just like we all do. All I have seen in these comments are 'religion' and NO relationship. Jesus came to save the world, not CONDEMN, and I am seeing an awful LOT of that here. How sad. Let me also remind you that Jesus was talking to the church, not the sinners when He was rebuking. My heart is breaking. I love you all. |
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s307kingsley
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More Than Meets the Eye Charisma gifts are gifts of grace, given without merit and God doesn't repent for having given them. They are given "for the rebellious also (Ps. 60:18)." While gifting is required for those serving in ministry, as evident in Timothy and Titus, character is non-negotiable. It doesn't mean God de-gifts a gifted man whose character doesn't measure up, it means he is not to put before the church as a minister. Period. This plainly stated biblical standard continues to be trampled under foot by some charismatic leaders in the name of grace, at the expense of truth. By the end of the first century, the same perverted "grace" message was at work: "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ (Jude 4)." Bentley might deny denying the Lord, but remember that Jesus said there would be many who would call him "Lord, Lord" with their mouths and yet work unrighteousness. Grace gets you the free gift of eternal life; faithfulness to the high calling of grace gets you his reward. Paul thought that reward was worth the discipline of keeping his body under control. Grace is not license; it is the power to serve sacrificially. |
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myvalon haney
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... WHERE IS THE FEAR OF THE LORD? THE WORD HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH THE WORD REVERENCE JUST LIKE THE WORD CONVICTION WAS REPLACED WITH CONDEMNATION. NOONE UNDERSTANDS CONVICTION ANYMORE. THEY CALL IT CONDEMNATION AND THEREFORE WILL NOT LISTEN TO ANYTHING THAT MAKES THEM FEEL BAD. LIKEWISE THEY ASK HOW CAN A GOD OF LOVE BE FEARED? THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND TO FEAR HIM IS WISDOM. IN THE CHURCH TODAY THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES. WE LOOK, ACT, SMELL AND TASTE JUST LIKE THE WORLD. |
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Dr. Who
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Firing on Fort Sumter? Well....now it's really starting to gear up, eh! Looks like the Blues have surrounded the Greys in Charleston harbor and loped a cannonball into their midst. Still not sure who is who in this epic struggle........I do not know if this whole issue with Todd is the catalyst for this Civil War that Rick mentioned or not. I guess we shall see as time goes on. The response he sent to Lee seemed rather rushed and harsh. Take a dart for that--it seemed to have some spite. But, I can say that I was very impressed by the second video Rick posted on his Morning Star website yesterday. Not so much for it's addressing everyone's questions, but as to the attitude of his(Rick's) heart. I got the sense that Rick REALLY is trying to "restore" Todd, but is not really sure how to go about it. I do not see eye to eye with Rick on many issues, but I still respect him and his office, which I do believe the Lord has given him. I never really gained any respect for Todd, and there was something weird going on at the "commissioning", but the Lord WAS there in Lakeland doing many wonderful things among His people, regardless of anything else that might have occurred or been said there. Worship was also very good. At the very least we can say that God still uses "Cracked Pots". Back to the subject of Todd's restoration though....Rick has his work cut out for him! I heard Rick address this again in the second video. I am feeling better about WHAT Rick wants to do, but the jury is still out on HOW he wants to go about it and WHERE he wants to go with Todd. I believe it is very presumptuous at this point in Todd's restoration for anyone to say that he will(or should) go back into ministry. He may WANT to, but I would hope that for the next few years he cools it. He needs mentoring, discipling, healing, counseling (marraige, of course). He's going to drag ALLLLLLLL that baggage from the first marraige right into the second. That needs to be dealt with. Todd needs to regain the trust of the body--just at the level of being restored as a BROTHER, not a leader. Lets give Rick the opportunity to do THAT much. I would like to think that God CAN restore a fallen leader, but the real issues behind the fall must be dealt with. That can (and should) take quite some time. It cannot be rushed. Sometimes you have to demolish (part of) the building to repair the foundation. Todd needs to do that and needs to submit. I also heard allusions to some of this in Rick's video as well. I also think it was presumptous for Todd to set up another "ministry" at this point too. I believe Todd should really back off from it! It's hurting his credibility(or the ability to regain it). Rick has probably set up some plan and will execute it in what he thinks is God's timing. I would also commend Rick and his staff on the fact that they are probably setting aside their own time to mentor and disciple him, as well as provide the guy a job( I will assume that it is a ligit job and not the kind a pastor gives his brother-in-law). Rick knew he would come under scrutiny and STILL made the step to do it(my only hope is that Rick is not doing this as a means to "absorb" Todd and his giftings...if so, God will deal with that, but my assumption at this point is no). I also do not think that Lee is wrong in anything he stated. I believe that Lee is a "watchman on the wall" and wants to see holiness in God's church just like we all do. I hear his heart in his writings. He has brought up valid points that need to be dealt with by Todd, and Rick. I would like to see this as "iron sharpening iron" rather than an all out Charismatic Civil War (strange ring to it) starting. I don't mean to sound like Jack Nicolson in "Mars Attacks!" who said "Why can't we all just get along?!", but I say let's keep hammering away at this and belive the Lord will do something good from it! Let's get the issues resolved! All in a biblical way and in love of course. I want unity in the body of Christ, but I also want truth, honesty, integrity, holiness, and people to be REAL! Don't throw the rug over the elephant in the living room...shoot him!....and eat him one bite at a time! |
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aa
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re contend4thefr8th RJ in his latest video blog attempts to explain why Todd fell. He says that a lot of TB's mentors were also divorced and that they seemed to be ok. So now he is blaming it on other leaders. I want to straighten out that TB had a board of leaders who I know personally that have all been in their marriages for more than a hundred years collectively. Not one is divorced and none approved of the dissolution of his marriage or this affair. They did their best to hold Todd accountable and the couple who gave him marriage counseling has been married for over 30 years. Todd appeared to submit for a time to their council and then went right off the rails. I have never been a Todd groupie and we were warned by Keith Abram that the Lord cautioned us as to who we align with. Todd made a great effort to appear contrary to what the warning implied. However, time has validated the warning given by Keith. I personally was concerned when I saw people searching the church floor for gold dust, feathers, and gems, instead of focusing on each other and God. I brought that to the attention of the leaders and they did correct folks that God should be our main focus. However, Todd has always focused on the miracles, visions, and manifestations, some of which can rarely be verified by scripture. Having come from an occult background, I believe that Todd had not been given full deliverance and still has doors open to that realm. Second heaven is the realm of the demonic and not a place one goes for a leisurely stroll. Satan needs to be respected for the deceiver that he is; none of us are bullet proof to these deceptions. Our only protection is to stay in the Word of God and purpose to avoid anything that is tainted with the smoke and mirrors of 'second heaven'. Oprah Winfrey is involved in the same guru mentality teaching people the "Course on Miracles". Many Christians have signed up for this believing that it is based on scripture. While a good deal of it reflects the Word there is error that will lead astray all those who adopt its mandates. It is a demon channeled document and demons never tell the whole truth. |
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aa
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re contenf4thef8th Our leaders at home in Abbotsford have tried to balance the privacy of Shonnah and the children, the protection of the flock, and the very public light in which all this has melted down. Even now they will be facing tough decisions as to how to respond to the latest Todd revelations via RJ's video blog. They have been compromised once again by the very people that purport to care about our church, Shonnah, the children, and so on. RJ says that he and Bill Johnson did not approve of Todd's divorce and subsequent remarriage. However, he quotes a single verse in Galations as sufficient evidence that Todd should be restored not only to the Body of Christ, but to ministry as well. What about what the rest of scripture says? He talks about Todd as a victim, blame shifting to other divorced leaders, and yet intends to give us yet another divorced leader by restoring Todd. This is not logical. Further, to suggest that Todd has suddenly acquired a hatred for divorce when he hastily divorced and remarried in the past few weeks is ludicrous. Also, put full body shots of Jessa live, in profile, on the next video blog. Answer the question: Is she pregnant or has she had a child recently by Todd? Put the rumours to rest. Tell the whole truth about what is going on. You claim, RJ, that Todd's hasty remarriage was so he could remain pure with Jessa. Personally, this seems a bit of a joke, since a man may also commit adultery simply by coveting that which he should not. Jesus said to pluck out the eye and remain pure with the wife of your youth. It is in some ways irrelevant whether they actually consummated the relationship prior to this 'marriage' given Jesus standards. However, I am sick of all the lies and leaking the 'truth' in blow by blow coverage. Tell the truth or don't video blog at all. Shonnah is doing well is complete rubbish! Like any mother, she is maintaining during a very painful time only made more painful by your insensitive trumpeting of Todd's indiscretions! Did Bill Johnson give his stamp of approval to this "Toddcast"? What's next? Pictures of the kiddies at Disneyland with Dad so it's all OK? Being abandoned is not something a quick visit to an amusement park can fix. The pain will always be a part of their lives now. It will come back at family get togethers and special occasions such as birthdays, school plays, graduation, and weddings. Disney can never fix all that. Rick, you say that 50% of the church is divorced. Therefore, know this, we 50% and all our children are not fooled one bit by the positive spin you are trying to put on this. We know the pain and humiliation that divorce brings. We know the stigma attached to our children and ourselves in the Christian community and at large. What do Jack Deere and Bill Johnson think of your "Toddcast" since their names are attached to this process? Do they approve each sequence before it aired? Let’s hear from Jack and Bill. |
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charamaticchaos
said:
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About time You guys are forgetting, not only has Todd destroyed his family and any credibility as a minister, he is also a heretic. He preaches heresy. The worship of angels, word of faith commanding of God. These are all heresies that need to be exposed. I am so grateful that the Charismatic church is starting to realize the falseness of these charlatans fleecing the flock for their own personnel gain. I truly weep for the judgment these people will face. |
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calmwhisper
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Thank You Lee Lee, I think you are right on. Keep on. The editor to this magazine, you hung one of your own writers out for the wolves, shame on you by printing that response letter, but in reality, thank you because everyone now knows what kind of Rick Joyner heads and that it really is not one that I would call following and fearing God. Lee, I read the response letter from Rick Joyner and I was shocked and found myself becoming angry. How dare he? Only God has the right to credential someone and only God has the right to speak through whom He pleases and I believe he spoke through you in this article. Rick might have gotten a lot of supportive emails but that was because they were probably from the only ones who knew what was going on through his personal email list, since they felt it necessary to keep it from the Church as a whole, the ones that were hurt the most. Anyway, if he follows through with his threats, let us know. I know a group of us who will join you. You have helped to restore in my sight that there are still men of God willing to fear God above other men. I am praying for you and I stand with you. Keep writing. Another thing, my son is fighting in the military for your right to free speech and Jesus died and rose again so you could proclaim the Gospel and the truth to the church. Those are your credentials. Speak freely and boldly. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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Ted Haggard vs Todd Bentley Rick, where were you when Ted Haggard need counselling and restoration? Where were you to offer him the support his church never ever gave him? Where is his restoration? Heck, for a time they even banned him from his own home and state. Though now he is back in his home state in the same city as his church. The church has banned him. Why are you not there for him? Rick, Todd's getting back into ministry and I know you lied on the video that "support" for Todd is 99%. You stuttered, means you slipped your tongue and said a lie. A lie even God won't forgive you if you keep on lying. Repent or ichabod....oops, I forgot. God's glory departed from your ministry long ago. |
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Dr. Who
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Video by Rick Joyner posted on 3/13/09 For those who have not been back to see, Rick posted a new video after the one he did with Todd on 3/11/09. See link below: http://www.morningstarministri...tleys.aspx |
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Idonthaveaclue
said:
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AA stated it quite clear Mr. Bentley said he is a businessman, I am truly sorry for all those who were hurt. I have learned as a Christian first and foremost cover your backside. My irony meter broke a few times when I listened to the video. I remember the first time I saw Mr. Bentley on the God Channel, I will admit it and I am completely ashamed of this, but I really wanted it to be true. I understand that makes me stupid, a real Christian should not have a need, ever. What I ponder is this restoration, personally I have never ever never ever once seen this ever happen to one of the regular folks in the Body, NEVER. You are booted and that is the end. So I do not have such expectations. In a way I thank Mr. Bentley for reminding me, for folks like myself THERE IS NO ROOM AT THE INN, and there is no stable. From the Cheep seats this "gospel" is not good news, not at all. |
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Pandora
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Ready Or Not, Here He Comes: ~ The Time Of Sleeping With Foolish Virgins Is Over! The Wake Up Call Has Sounded. Time Is Here To Behold The Coming 0f The Bridegroom. Bid All The Foolish Virgins Farewell. To Buy Their Authority, From Those Who Sell. In The Testing 0f All Things Along With Hell. Days Are Coming No Man Wants To See. Only Those Who're Ready Will Be Set Free. Fear Not To Regret Nothing With Me. ~ |
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This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
said:
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Greasy Grace As long as Papa Bob Jones is in control of the heaven that his boys are under, nothing will come to their harm-so to speak. Rick should know better but he is a senior son and must comply with what the heaven of bob Jones says he got from his trips to his heaven.all this will come to an end one day.It is obvious that these boys fear man -him more than God.Judgement is coming to the the world starting from the body of christ-church and certainly from the pulpit then to the pew. Continue Lee Grading with the truth and do not waver or be afraid of those who depend on stories of heaven from their socalled mentors. |
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Babylonbasher
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... I don't know how many people on here have actually been prayed for by Todd Bentley but a few years ago he came over here to the UK and I sat through the service feeling decidedly chilly (spiritually speaking). Then I lined up for prayer, for some reason, and when he got to me he clamped his hand on my head and forcefully pushed me over. Quite frankly I didn't feel like some great preacher had prayed for me - rather that I had just been assaulted. We can all pull out scriptures to reflect our views (either way) and surely we are really flying head first into the end times with so many of the elect being deceived. Test the spirits my brothers and sisters and stick to that narrow path. Better than that, hang on to Jesus's robes for grim death because that is the safest place for all of us. The Father's Blessing on you ALL. David. |
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donmartin
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You are overlooking the real issue. This remark is addressed to both Lee and Rick. You are both part of the problem; Lee stated that guidence was needed for a "confused church" and the church needed to be "protected from scandal". These statements although sincere are irrelevant. The so called church as been "confused" for 100's of years and is getting more confused daily. The church is rooted in hopeless confusion because the truth of the Gospel is being denied and its power exchanged for mere human intellect. The church is basically a man made enterprise that is perpetuated by grossly irreverant merchandising, advertising, promotion of man and his so-called ministries. How can you protect a church from scandal when in the church is THE scandal. It is not only a scandal, but it is an insult to purity and sanctity of our Lord. Compared to the example of Jesus and those who immediately followed Him, most of whom died because of their testimony, todays so-called "church" is largely an abomination and by its natural a harlot. Neither one of you is part of the solution. You are both part of the problem along with the rest of those who are more interested in promoting themselves and "their church or ministry", than following the Lord, His Word and His Truth. The whole church needs to repent from their idolatry, witchcraft and legalism and discard it all and follow the King into His Kingdom. It is time to stop doing our "thing" start doing His Thing. Respectfully, Don Martin ( This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it ) |
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Jslimbaugh
said:
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Thanks, Lee Well, I could say a lot...but most of it has already been said. So let me simply add, "Thank God for Lee Grady." |
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This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
said:
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Greasy Grace L.Grady, You are on the right tract. Do not be worried with the usual intimidating tactics of these god fathers who think they are better and different from the mafia god fathers. whatever is binding them together cannot be the one and only true God of Holiness and righteousness. They come up with threats as a way to shut anyone who dares to recognize their folly which they call wisdom. These are self appointed wise men who have reached their saturation point in ministry because they now operate in the flesh. For that reason they fail to recognize when one is not operating in the true spirit of God. These elders threatened anyone who dared to say there is something wrong with the Lakeland revival if that is what it is to be called- (I say Lakeland confusion). It is Ricks turn to threaten any one who does not foolishly accept the wrong they are doing to Todd in the name of love. They are doing this in the name of money and prestige. The question to ask is what this love? Is it love for Todd, the body of Christ, the unbeliever who must be disgusted by the hypocrisy, falsehood and love for self in the body of Christ especially from our so-called spiritual leaders with their double standards? I hope the pope is aware that Vatican city is on its transfer to America because there are qualified candidates to take over the papal stool. Someone knows to keep quiet after presiding, as the apostolic god, promoting Todd and installing him into greater arena of error, then turns round to call him a looser. He has probably lost his place to Rick- This is power play. The relay race continues with Todd as the baton. It is in Rick’s hand now and he has to run this self chosen race of destroying someone who is obviously blind. This is very sad. Has somebody no conscience to recognize the wickedness in the whole Todd saga. History will continue to repeat itself as long as we continue to rewrite the bible to excuse our foolishness. Misinterpreting the word and taking the half that suits our purpose discarding or disregarding the other half that mirrors the intents of our heart. 1Sam2:22 ff ( old Eli and his sons in the house of God) and 1kings 13 the old prophet and the young prophet) is being re-enacted . I am not standing forth for Todd. He has his own share in all of this. He feels needed and cares less about what Truth is saying. That is why he goes ahead all the time exhibiting rebellion against God and man because he has what it take and what the leaders need to sustain their dwindling businesses they call ministries. The piper is playing the tune here and those that do not have ears for the Truth will definitely hear it. We will all give account of all our roles in the scenes we have play-acted. Keep speaking the truth and don’t let any apostolic foolishness shut you down. Just remember that it is not about you but about Jesus who laid His life that we may have it abundantly in purity. Itune |
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contend4thef8th
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Fresh Fire Ministries An open letter to Fresh Fire Ministries board of directors. If you think you will get out from this recent TB scandal. you are wrong. YOU ARE THE CAUSE OF THIS. Years ago you could have stopped Todd when he was drinking, screwing and lying through his teeth. Why did you let him get away with it? Shonnah and her family are suffering. When she saw the signs her husband was going off the rails, did anyone listen to her or just shush her up? After all if the "Golden Boy" falls so too the ministry. Like Pilate you are "washing your hands" of this. But I declare to you Fresh Fire Ministries /Transform International...ICHABOD, ICHABOD, ICHABOD. The glory will depart until there is true repentance on your part and that you do right by Shonnah and her children. |
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lastblast
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contend Yes, I saw this on the open heaven forum, contend. It is amazing to me that people completely ignore what Jesus taught: Whosoever puts away his wife and marries another commits adultery"....................This moderator says that Jessa is Todd's wife. Jesus says, "not so, Todd is committing adultery"................now, how can it be possible to commit adultery, according to God, AND be LAWFULLY married (in God's sight)to the person GOD SAYS you are committing adultery with? I guess he also hasn't read what God says in Mal 2 when GOD calls the FIRST wife, the wife of the covenant..............not the second wife. But, it is not surprising to me in the least as many teach today that one can come and go in marriage and that God HAS TO bless each and every union, though HE did NOT join them together and says they are committing adultery. Let's try that same reasoning with Gay marriage and see it the same thing is accepted in the professing church............ http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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contend4thef8th
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Rick Joyner’s Response to Lee Grady’s Column So, now I understand why they took off this forum and added it as a link in story above. Lee, always fight the good fight please. |
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contend4thef8th
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Correction - my bad. At least here both pros, cons and ignorant views are allowed. |
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contend4thef8th
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I'm Not Boasting I'm not, but I just got kicked out of Open Heaven for challenging those who predominately support TB. Even the forum moderator. At least her both pros, cons and ignorant are allowed. It is a shame that any ministry give some form of legit appearance and license to TB, RJ and others of their ilk. The moderator used at OT verse to condone Todd's marriage to his new wife. Shame. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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Bravo Robingael You do your Lord proud. You do search the scriptures diligently. Well done. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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RepentorPerish
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Tragic Scandal of Greasy Grace People will still think GOD was somehow involved in this fiasco. Yes, He was, He exposed it! The Word says, Have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. As for the miracles, TB couldn't even produce three for the news media. The Word says, False prophets shall show great signs and wonders and deceive the very elect. The Word also says, to test the spirit. The Word also says a little leven levens the whole lump. That means a little lie makes the truth of whatever a lie. To Lee Grady.....Keep up the good work in exposing darkness...To Rick Joyner.....you are showing who you really are and you will be exposed, if not already. If TB really was repented, he should of cared for his wife, children and the way God feels about divorce and the peoples lives he affected through his publicity antics. He was more concerned with another woman and his fleshly desires. Now after he got what he wanted, divorce and another woman; He repents? Fakeland was not a little leven, but a truckload. |
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Jeremiahs Tears
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Touch not God's anointed Thank you Robingael for quoting my notes on the Scriptural way/understanding of judging prophets and prophecies. That needed to be said again because some recent comments showed they did not know this. I am glad jks2009 brought up the Blues & Grays Christian thing. Joyner alone teaches this, so where did he come by this teaching? I think it comes from his Dominionist doctrine that comes out of the Partial Preterist eschatology (i.e. Jesus returned in 70 AD), something all his colleagues are into ... including TB of course. Yet you never hear them say they are Dominionists (I hope someone challenges me on that). This doctrine is a tool to dominate and control the saints by intimidation. We are told not to question or criticize them because to do so is to touch God's anointed. This overlooks the fact that you and I are also God's anointed. So we have God's anointed touching God's anointed. This takes us back to the issue of judging...or how to judge the Scriptural way. This article gives us some insight into this doctrine:: http://www.arkhaven.org/dominionism_trojan_horse_in_charismatic_movement.htm |
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Robingael
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Blue and Gray JKS Years ago I read and ascribed to much of what Rick Joyner wrote and said. I no longer do, I am older and more mature, and love the truth more than myself. To be transformed into the image of Christ is a full time job, not an option. I do not ascribe to RJ's "vision" of blue and gray, whether he had one or not. Many of us noted after many hours of reading and researching online during the Lakeland debacle that 98% of the profanity, threats, and misquotes from scripture came from the group that was defending TB. There certainly was a "spirit" operating in Lakeland and it was by no stretch of the imagination a Godly one. God makes an absolute guarantee that if we seek truth we will find it, and: Mark 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' This is the first commandment." A big part of that is testing what others do and say and studying the Word. I have heard hundreds of times "do not judge"...and those that do not know the Word well do not know what is being said. Below, in Jeremiah's Tears comment, he said what is actually be said, IF we take the time to look: Matt. 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged". In the Greek verb, that form of "judge" is "krino": pronouncing a sentence or executing that which has been determined. Jesus said, judge (krino) not. Don't you give the sentence or execute before the time. The second Greek verb is "diakrino," which denotes arbitrating and deciding by way of being discriminate. In other words, 'THINK!" The third,"Anakrino," means to examine, investigate and question. We ought to examine, that is, to inspect or scrutinize with care. To test for fitness, to consider, discuss, explore, interrogate, observe, overhaul, ponder, ransack, search, study, try, view, weigh, inquire and compare. The Apostle Paul says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth (anakrino) all things..." (I Corinthians 2:15) This includes judging the false prophet, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge (anakrino)." (I Corinthians 14:29) Because we search and examine as we should we are branded "intellectually minded, and not hearing from the Spirit." ? That is sheer idiocy. God has used my gifts numerous times over the years to prophecy and deliver words of knowledge, and because I have submitted my life and will to Him what I delivered was 100% correct. As a missionary in Japan, I operated such and was able to bless those that lived in such a difficult society. Wake up, church. Stop being led into more deception by these self appointed, control freak "apostles and prophets." Take a look at this valuable sight: http://www.harvestnet.org/lookback/godmanDec97.htm Prophetic Mandate-Levels of Integrity, Truthfulness, and Responsibility This was some years ago, but seems nothing has changed. I agree with another comment on this page that RJ needs God. |
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contend4thef8th
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Refreshing I find it refreshing that there are just as many who are appalled by this scandal as those who are scripturally ignorant regarding divorce and remarriage. Thankful, This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Globalgospel
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The REAL tragic scandal The real tragedy and scandal within Christianity is people have not returned to their first love (that is when they first became aware of the Person of the Holy Spirit now here in their own heart and life) Whom they had invited in for to be baptised by the Holy Spirit of God (as had Jesus Christ Himself when He walked this earth). The Bible tells us why- the Nicolaiten doctrine, the Balaam doctrine, and Jez coming in on the heels of these two heresies being broadly proclaimed and preached. To keep this brief and to the point, "Nicolaitens" are today's 'reformed' and un'reformed' western and eastern catholics religious creedal doctrines which do not allow one to return to their first love. "Balaam" has a long line of successors, not the least of which was John Calvin and his many followers within the so-called catholic 'reformation' period. Third, Jezebel functions freely in ALL these creedal and eternal security emphasis preachings BECAUSE they honestly now believe as in the majority of todays Charismatic and non-charismatic world they simply will 'lose their reward' ONLY when they knowingly enter into 'messing up things' as born again believers within the body of Christ |
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kgoldenk
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... The Bible IS our guide. A SET OF GOD'S RULES. What is so legalistic about that? It's a word called OBEDIENCE. Something that the 'greasy gracers' will not tolerate.Not only does the WORD show us the GRACE and MERCY of God, through JESUS CHRIST, but as we follow HIM, we find that we must have HIS integrity, honesty and transparence. And be OBEDIENT. We follow HIM HIS WAY. Let's face it CHURCH, we ARE seeing the body divided over issues like this, and we will see it more and more as time goes on. I have written OFF most of the people like Joyner, Wagner, Pierce, and many others as they have progressed into the NAR and started understanding what their agenda is. I do believe that their works are being EXPOSED for the very sake of the Body of Christ and we see that more and more are coming to reject THEIR teachings. THANK GOD FOREVER! I pray that not only LEE GRADY speak up, the truth, but that GOD GIVE US 5000 more leaders across this nation that will not be afraid to speak the truth! Our times are like when God says, "EACH ONE DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN EYES". Don't you see it CHURCH? It has been coming and affecting everyone it touches for many years now. And so Joyner and his pals have the NAR, and the Charasmatic group that will defend themselves, they are in it together... REMEMBER THAT... They will continue on unless God by His grace opens their eyes and GIVES them a spirit of REPENTANCE. SO, don't hold your breath that any of them will ACCEPT any rebuke from outsiders. We know all this, many comments prove that GOD IS OPENING PEOPLES EYES, so what are we to do CHURCH.? My advise is as follows: GET OUR FOCUS BACK ON JESUS, PRAY AND FIND HIS WILL FOR YOU INDIVIDUALLY> QUIT GIVING and SUPPORTING THESE PEOPLE... PUT YOUR MONEY AND TIME TO WORK IN YOUR OWN COMMUNITIES. BE HONEST. FLEE YOUTHFUL LUSTS. GO BACK TO THE KISS METHOD... "KEEP IT SIMPLE SAINTS"... DON'T FALL FOR THEIR GNOSTIC TEACHINGS, PORTALS, THIRD HEAVEN SCENIC TRIPS. GEMS, DUST, FEATHERS... etc... BELIEVE THE LORD FOR A MIGHT MOVE OF HIS SPIRIT... BACK TO THE BASICS... PREACH THE WORD, HEAL THE SICK, CAST OUT DEVILS.. FREELY YOU HAVE RECEIVED, FREELY GIVE... HOW SIMPLE IS THAT! |
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lastblast
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... Jks, I understand what you are trying to convey. However, what you term "legalism" is incorrect. Legalism (as the Pharisees) is to ADD to what God has declared/commanded, putting a yoke on people that God does not require. Those who are coming against Todd being "restored" are doing so not because they are trying to put on him MORE than God requires, but becasue he is DISQUALIFIED to lead ministry. Why is he disqualified? One very big reason is that he is an ADULTERER. Yes, he is in a civilly recognized union, but this "marriage" is not recognized by God/nor joined by Him. God has called his "marriage" adultery. Another reason is that Todd has shown himself to be a FRAUD. Has he repented publically of all of his fraudulous activities? I'm sorry, but this is not a man who was a known UNSAVED man who did all these things. He was a man who PROFESSED to follow the LIVING GOD and PROFESSED to be a spokesman/worker of Jesus Christ................yet, he was living in DARKNESS. Instead of coming forth with all of his sins, he is hiding behind Mr. Joyner, who himself, had absolutely NO discernment about Todd, yet this same man is bringing Todd to restoration? This is nothing more than the blind leading the deceptive...........and for what? Scripture teaches us that those in leadership should have a good report with those OUTSIDE. How much more should those in leadership have a good report with those INSIDE???? To put such a man BACK into any leadership would be to disobey God's commands. If he truly repents someday-----leaving this adulterous "marriage", forsaking all his deceptive ways, confessing all to those in the church he has hurt/offended, THEN God will use him-----in other ways.........in ways that will not oppose what Paul taught about leaders in the church. Just my two, plus a few extra. http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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contend4thef8th
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Oops! Correction I said, 'As for judging, Jesus made two, count'em 2 comments about judging a person. BOTH are the same. One says "Judge rightous judgment" and the other says, "Do not judge according to apperance.' THEY ARE the same thing. You should find that in your bible too. ' Should be As for judging, Jesus made two, count'em 2 comments about judging a person. BOTH are the same. One says "Judge rightous judgment" and the other says, "Judge not lest you be judged' THEY ARE the same thing. You should find that in your bible too. My bad. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For JKS2009 You said, "those dominated by grace are quick to forgive. It is clear that the Pharisee spirit is alive and well here. " Boy do you live in another world. You know not the scriptures. The Pharisee spirit is quite alive today, those like Todd Bentley and Rick Joyner have one rule for themselves and another for us. Grace does not cover deliberate sin. Don't you ever read the Bible without filters of your own belief? In Romans 6:1-2 Paul says, "1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?" That is in your Bible. As for judging, Jesus made two, count'em 2 comments about judging a person. BOTH are the same. One says "Judge rightous judgment" and the other says, "Do not judge according to apperance.' THEY ARE the same thing. You should find that in your bible too. Throw off those self filtered glasses and read the Word as it stands. If you do, then you won't partake of Todd's and Rick's sin and be excluded from heaven. |
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NobodySpecial
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jks2009 said: In defense of Rick Joyner While I commend your desire to forgive, I fear that this kind of thinking will bring great ruin on many individuals as well as the church as a whole. I good example of this kind of "greasy grace" thinking can be found in the life of Eli. Though he had in his charge one of the greatest prophets of all times, his refusal to discipline his own sons left him with a curse,not a blessing. He was a fact a great captain of the Blue Army. It has been around for some time you know. 1 Sam 3:11-14 11And the LORD said to Samuel: "See, I am about to do something in Israel that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle. 12At that time I will carry out against Eli everything I spoke against his family-- from beginning to end. 13For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them. 14Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, 'The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'" (NIV) |
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contend4thef8th
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For AnnaH You said, "Paul is not an authority to me so I rarely listen to him and never when he says such wierd things." Why Anna? Why ignore Paul's writing as if they were just his personal comments? What Paul wrote is directed by God, hence, you disobey whatever Paul writes is the same as disobeying God Himself. There are the odd one or two statements he makes but he carefully states those statements are from his own heart and not the Lord's. Paul wrote most of the NT, are you going to ignore those and just focus on the Gospels, Acts, Peter's books and John's, book of Hebrews and Revelation, you get the point. The NT would be a mighty thin book indeed. Here is what Peter has to say about Apostle Paul, 2 Peter 3: 15b-16, "...This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture.And this will result in their destruction."[NLT] So be very, very careful AnnaH, you tread on shaky ground ignoring most of the NT. If you don't understand the reasoning of why Paul said, "hand him over to satan" then get some commentaries to explain it to you. Use Biblegateway.com and their commentaries online. |
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jks2009
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In defense of Rick Joyner Awhile back the Lord showed Rick that a division was coming in the body of Christ, between the Gray Christians and the Blue Christians. I believe the distinguishing factor between the two is Legalism vs Grace. Those dominated by legalism are quick to condemn, those dominated by grace are quick to forgive. It is clear that the Pharisee spirit is alive and well here. I have never seen so many people just itching to throw stones at a brother, when in fact they should take the Good Samaritan role. Legalism is just as bad now as it was when Paul wrote Galatians. Jesus had strong words for those who judge others. If Jesus does not condemn Todd, and He doesn't, according to Romans 8, who are you to condemn him? If his sin is under the blood, who are you to bring it up? Who appointed you to be judges? Who are you to judge another man's servant? It is clear that many of you do not have a revelation of the Grace of God. You should be ashamed. |
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anthony
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R Joyner's letter If the administrator's contribution is pukka,then it simply confirms the mess that crowd are in.Mind you even without that letter it is obvious anyway. Good work Lee. |
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Inthebeloved
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Please.. Lee, my hope and prayer is you do not back down from the biblical stand you have taken concerning this sorry situation. I read Mr. Joyner's public letter to you this evening and can see this is exactly what he desires you to do. To be frank, i saw it as a threatening letter. I know you may be tempted to retract some of your statements above to keep the peace, but i ask you as a sister in the Lord, please don't. There are not enough voices out there today willing to speak the truth, and stand firmly upon it afterward. The body of Christ needs one at Charisma magazine. God bless |
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AnnaH
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... Lee Grady is I feel right and plain fair ! But as far as all this Pauline stuff about "handing over to satan" Does anyone believe this, I mean really? Personally , Paul is not an authority to me so I rarely listen to him and never when he says such wierd things. (one of many!) Well, how does anyone do this..communicate with satan? "here's another one for you to destroy the flesh of'? Preposterous and never commanded by Jesus or his chosen and trained Apostles. Where else do you think the inquistion (and yes the 'reformers' too) got their ideas of saving the soul by torturing to death?? Jesus told us to forgive.We must also always repent of sins and take responsibility for them. In Bentleys case..up to him.. he knows the laws.Others however do not need to by forgiving him, be too scared of `"judging" (we are to test the fruit after all!) and let him realise he cannot resume ministry at least as hardly an example to others ! The rest is his business , between him and God. |
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Earl
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Truth has stumbled in the streets Thank you, Lee, for your courageous stand for truth. Unfortunately, in the Church - in the very midst of our Charismatic, apostolic, prophetic, intercessory circles - it seems that "truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter." One of the many reasons is that our leaders are weak, compromised and lacking in discernment - as evidence I offer Rick Joyner's various writings on Lakeland and Todd Bentley in addition to his response to your column. Joyner's response made no real defense of his positions on Lakeland or Bentley (I'm not sure that an effective one can actually be made in either case) and amounted to nothing more than a personal attack dripping with sarcasm and full of mean-spirited accusations. He spoke volumes about himself in writing just these few words. This is in many ways reflective of the general state of affairs in the Church today, but it is nothing new. A.W. Tozer wrote much about it in his day (the middle of the last century) and about the critical need for real leadership. As he prophecied, things have only gotten worse. It's hard to find just one quote that sums up his thoughts on the matter, but here's one that's representative. "Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man with discernment – one who has visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many) he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce, and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom. Such a man is likely to be lean, rugged, blunt-spoken and a little bit angry with the world. He will love Christ and the souls of men to the point of willingness to die for the glory of the one and the salvation of the other. But he will fear nothing that breathes with mortal breath." We have lot of "prophets" running around loudly proclaiming in our circles today, but not many of the type Tozer called for. I believe you are one such man - that you have taken up Tozer's mantle in this generation - and I too, "pray God that there will be...many." We need so desperately leaders of courage and conviction and steadfastness in the face of opposition - leaders who "will make no decisions out of fear, take no course out of a desire to please, accept no service for financial considerations, perform no religious act out of mere custom nor allow themselves to be influenced by the love of publicity or the desire for reputation." We need men and women of truth and vision. I believe you have the vision and are standing for truth. Oh, that great numbers of those who lead would see clearly our desperate need for them to rise to stand with you and for us in this hour. It is not judgmental to expect - to insist on - true Godliness in our leaders. We must demand righteousness and character and strength - accept nothing less than integrity - if we are to be led out of the era of "greasy grace" and other such snares as we find ourselves caught in today. Let me say, in closing, that you made no "presumptuous judgments" and that your words were not from the "mouth of the accuser." And you have built a lot, despite Joyner's claims to the contrary. God has given you a platform for speaking to His people. Your influence is not based primarily on the forum you have but on the anointing you have from Him and the integrity you have displayed over the years. The people of God receive your writings because they bear the mark of truth and are offered by a man of unquestioned humility and conviction. Rick Joyner and others won't build or long retain such a name for themselves with attacks on the word of truth or weak defenses of their part in such things as the excesses of events like Lakeland and failings of leaders like Todd Bentley. I long, with you, to hear in the Church in this day the sound of ripping sackcloth. |
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Javanut
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Stand strong Grady! Don't you dare back down on this - there are many of us praying you'd find your backbone in this matter. Be the prophet God called you to be and speak up about this outrage going on!! |
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jm
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Rick Joyner does not know God and needs humility Rick Joyner is led by a spirit, but a different spirit than the Holy Ghost. This letter of his showed his heart and arrogance. I think the guy is really off. To restore a man like Todd Bentley, you have to be either crazy, stupid, or deceived. Todd B lied about visions, going to heaven, translations and lots of other stuff. His ministry was built on lies. That's how he grew big, by telling tall tales that noone tested. I blame John and Carol Arnott for some of this stuff because they allowed TB to grow big in their pulpit. TB manipulated the Word many times even before Lakeland and got rich off doing that. He used his lies to get offerings too. His whole ministry was a lie, built on lies. Did he really go to heaven and see Paul's cabin? No. Did Abraham really tell him Hebrews was cowritten by him? No. Did gold dust and oil stigmata really happen at Bentley's meetings? No. Todd Bentley is an evil, godless liar. As for Shonnah B, she stood by Todd for many years and was a part of the lie. She knew he was lying and helped him build his ministry of lies. She is not a victim here, people. The both of them lied to the body and they in the end reaped the corruption they sowed. Treating Shonnah like an innocent victim is deception. She like Ruth Madoff knew what was going on and reaped the benefits. Be harmless as doves but wise as serpents. Love, Jesusoverturnministries, |
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richservant
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Forgive and Repent We have become so accustomed to forgive without demanding repentance. The statement made by TB shows that he has not repented. "Todd and Jessa agree that their relationship was "wrong and premature" and that it "should not have happened the way it did"; ????? Sin is NEVER premature. It is always WRONG. And to add that "it should not have happened the way it did" ???? What does he mean, "the way it did" ??? It should not have happened, period. |
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Globalgospel
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"greasy grace" The true scandal, or scandals re: "greasy grace" is discussed by Paul when he says the congregation is rather proud of the grace extended to the man whose sin was not even to be mentioned amongst the Gentiles. In other words, the doctrine of "eternal security" is nothing to be proud of teaching and preaching based upon this deception. Balaam told King Balak of this doctrine. Calvin and his followers have brought it up to date. When we receive grace we do not immediately here on this planet enter into life eternally, but we do taste of eternal life, and this life is ONLY in His Son. Yes, the man (although the congregation was proud of their grace message) needed to have his "spirit saved" (for he clearly had lost his way spiritually). Greasy grace should not be applied to individuals and their lives, sorted or not. It is a term which can be attributed to doctrines which congregations are attracted to. More people have backslid from this "eternal security" doctrine than from any claims of just not being soundly saved in the first place. God's Word is the seed and it does not return unto Him void. The seed takes to the heart of a man. But it can be choked, entangled, burnt, and plucked out of the heart of a man (or woman). We should never look upon individual people and accuse them as individuals for exercising "greasy grace" BUT we should apply this to congregational assemblies and meeting places who are gathered (being "proud" of their "greasy" doctrines)!!! |
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Pastor Mike
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It is appalling! I am simply appalled at Rick Joyner's letter. I don't have the words to express my disgust. I really don't. But let me say with the others - Lee you are right. What you wrote is right. What we have seen with this whole fiasco is what happens when we leave the straight plumbline of God's objective truth/Word and judge what is right or wrong or what is a move of God or not a move of God by our experience alone. And since when does leading a movement or birthing one qualifies you to speak or not speak the truth. Amos the prophet said "I was not a prophet nor the son of a prophet" . Hmm. I don't remember Amos birthing any movement or a revival BEFORE God called him to rebuke Israel for her sin. Lee I am thankful you are speaking out for holiness and the fear of the Lord. God, restore the spirit of the fear of the Lord to your people Mike |
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winter
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... I also noticed that Rick Joyner 's guilt laden, mealy mouthed rant did not address the substantive issues Lee Grady raised. Just the usual hypergrace cheap restoration cult-like rhetoric So what if Lee Grady has never started a movement. Does starting a movement place one above criticism? So by that token we should not criticize Joesph Smith or Muhummad "the prophet." What of the issue of Biblical discipline? What of the issue of Bentley's adultery? What of Bentley family that he abandoned? You invited Lee to see what great works you were doing, how about telling us how Shonna Bentley and the children are doing. When will you tell us about that? Rick Joyner now has all the credibility of the |
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Morenike
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Waoh J. Lee Grady, you nailed this time again as always. You are one of those I respect most in my life though I have not met you in person. You are a voice in our generation. RJ was asking you about authority and i would like to say something. The Bible says that by their fruits you shall know them. You have always stood for the truth and i thank the Lord Jesus for your life. |
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winter
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... God bless Lee Grady for not treating Shonna Bentley as a disposable, inconvenient old shoe that needed an upgrade. God bless Lee Grady for the biblical compassion he has shown towards a woman who has not been mentioned ONCE by Rick Joyner. Do Rick Joyner and the charismatic circusry that have massaged Bentley's grade school desire for "comfort" while his wife and children have been abandoned really believe that they will get away with this? Do they think that God is mocked? How long did it take for Hophni and Phineas to overthrown from the priesthood? For a season, I am sure that they too thought that God was making an exception for their sins. |
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contend4thef8th
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For Jeremiahs Tears Boy, you really fell off the wagon and hit your head. How else to explain all those biblical misquotes of your's. ver, very Paraseeic. |
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Jeremiahs Tears
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[b]Robert Smith on How to Judge Prophets Structurally[/b] Reading all the below letters it is easy to surmise that most of you writers are sensing something false about TB…and RJ, but does God allow us to judge whether a minister is false or true? We Christians know Jesus is the light of the world; and we, his ministers, proclaim this truth to the world. However, the devil has claimed to be the light of the world, and his ministers go forth to proclaim the devil as that light. We also know the Lord backs his word with evidence that demands a verdict. "A long time, therefore, abode they (the disciples) speaking boldly in the Lord, who gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands." (Acts 14:3) The enemy also goes about to prove himself to the world. "And he (the devil's minister) doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do..." (Revelation 13: 13-14) False prophets continue to deceive the Lord's people because of the signs, wonders and miracles which are performed. Many of the Lord's people even go so far as to financially support these fakes. What's more upsetting is the fact that if I should point out by name a few false prophets, some of the Lord's people would rebuke me for judging. They would say to me, Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1) How sad! How then are we to deal with this matter of the false prophet who arrays himself in sheep's clothing? Allow me to show you that Paul said we should judge the prophet! To judge means more than what many people think; just as love means more than what many people think. There are at least three Greek verbs that are rendered to judge in the English language. In short, the Greek verb "krino" carries with it the meaning of pronouncing a sentence or executing that which has been determined. Jesus said, judge (krino) not. Don't you give the sentence or execute before the time. The second Greek verb is "diakrino," which denotes arbitrating and deciding by way of being discriminate. In other words, 'THINK!" Jesus certainly did not say, "Think not." You, as a Christian, have a right to operate your own mind through the process of thinking. The third Greek verb, the one we want to consider, is "Anakrino," which means to examine, investigate and question. This, my friend, we should all do! We ought to examine, that is, to inspect or scrutinize with care. To test for fitness, to consider, discuss, explore, interrogate, observe, overhaul, ponder, ransack, search, study, try, view, weigh, inquire and compare. The Apostle Paul says, "But he that is spiritual judgeth (anakrino) all things..." (I Corinthians 2:15) This includes judging the false prophet, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge (anakrino)." (I Corinthians 14:29) We should see and understand, better to judge the prophet and decide whether or not he is fit to be called a prophet of God or a prophet of the devil. Sheep's clothing should be understood to mean sheep-like expressions, speaking and acting like sheep. Although the characteristics of sheep are not all that encouraging to think about, nevertheless, these characteristics are a natural part of the sheep. A wolf cannot have these traits naturally so. A wolf must put on an act or a front in order to get close to other sheep. Because a wolf is very smart and knows how to act out a part, Jesus said, "constantly be guarding yourself against the false prophet, men who are of such a character as to be coming to you with sheep-like outer expressions…(Matthew 7:15 The New Testament Expanded Translation). (This is a slight reiteration of something Bishop Robert E. Smith said in his booklet titled, Strong Words about Deception) |
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Elise
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Rick Joyner’s Response to Lee Grady’s Column... The last sentence says it all... "Sorry if this comes across as harsh. I don’t mean for it too but I am quite busy and just don’t have the time that I would like to maybe be a bit more tactful." These are the very last 2 sentences in Rick Joyner's response to Lee Grady's "The Tragic Scandal of Greasy Grace" Wow...how "in your face" patronizing. This says volumes about what is important in Rick Joyner's world of kingdom building. Guess what Rick...more of what you truly are is being exposed all the time, and you did all of us a favor by accelerating that fact when you posted what you did. It is oozing with arrogance...your "positioning" yourself to indicate that after all you and what you have done is so very superior and you are sooooo very important... compared to, after all....only a journalist. We will continue to support Lee Grady and be grateful for his honesty. |
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tclark
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... I'd like to thank Lee for having the courage to make his stand on the word of God. I will follow his example and do the same. One thing that concerns me is that the only scripture related to judging that most people--Christians and unbelievers alike--seem to know about is Matthew 7:1, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." This is true; it's in the Bible. But we've turned it into a "get out of jail free" card. And we've almost entirely ignored everything else that the Bible has to say about judging. What about 1 Corinthians chapters 5 and 6? God has given us two entire chapters related to the subject of judging, yet we ignore what the Holy Spirit is speaking to the church: "I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) How can we have revival if we have no respect for what the Spirit of God is speaking to the church? 1 Peter 4:17 says that judgment begins at the house of God, and 1 Corinthians 11:31 says that if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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prenuptials These were common in society in Bible Days. Even God didn't enter into covenant (marriage to Judah) with Jews without. In those days, all of this only led up to 'consumation' of the marriages in which many were never cosumated. Judah (Jews) marriage to God was also never consumated. Why? Because of the breaking of the 'prenuptials' by the bride, in this case. People can only go into ministry as sent one's (apostles) as a couple if they see eye to eye on their mission AND the man becomes the head and not the tail. When a church or organization sends out AGAIN one or both of the couple's previously sent (even if one is now remarried) it is the Church or Organizational responsibility to have a meeting of the minds and hearts of BOTH they are sending out (apostolically) as COUPLES, preferrably also in writing!!! |
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StevePage
said:
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Lee, Good Work. Rick Joyner get over yourself. Lee you have been very discerning in your coverage of Lakeland and Bentley. Many give thanks to the Lord for the work you have done. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of boldness and you have shown both the wisdom and the boldness of the Holy Spirit. Mr Joyner you have shown no good judgment or discernment in all this. You said, "I think what you call “the Lakeland disaster” would be disputed by multitudes of people who got healed or touched there" More accurately it would be disputed by the many who were deceived at Lakeland, in large part due to your lack of wisdom in giving credibility to Todd Bentley who has at least six years of lies printed in his books, not to mention the uncountable lies from Lakeland. None of which he has repented from. You asked Mr Grady what his credentials are, his credentials are his love of Christ and the outrage he feels as you and the other self appointed apostles like you, flippantly discredit our Lord Jesus with your false teachings and ludicrous prophecies done in His name. You owe every Christian and their Lord an apology sir. Lee Grady owes you no more an apology that Peter, John or Paul owe apologies to the false ones they exposed. |
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kuhn_t
said:
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... I'm really tired of the attitude of, Oh well, he's sorry, so that makes it o.k. It is not o.k. Todd Bentley was in leadership. Leaders set examples. Some are using the excuse that he is only human. Well, Jesus is our example and He did not sin. He has made a way out from EVERY temptation. Some are comparing Mr. Bentley to a layperson. You cannot do that. When someone is called to a leadership position much more is expected of them. As far as his ex-wife goesm she may have a lot of support, but that does not minimize the hurt, betrayal and humiliation someone experiences in these matters. I personally would not follow (trust) a leader who has these offenses on his resume and being that it was so public, he cannot conveniently leave it off. |
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Robingael
said:
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Sorry for Rick Joyner So sorry for Rick Joyner...many many of us out here in the realm of the charismatic world do not take him as seriously as we once did. His gnostic and wholly predictable writings are part of the problem with how Todd Bentley came to be what he is. It seems his concept of "building for the kingdom" has the typical worldly standards, not God's. But that is to be expected when one believes the lies of Dominionism and Latter Rain heresy. It seems those beliefs give the proponents some special license to control others by the sheer force of their personalities...their soul power. Then they wow the big crowds and proclaim it a "move of the spirit." It is about time people are waking up to what a TRUE revival is, and what it requires. But the silliness and sophistry of Bob Jones and company will not be an equation in what it will take for the body of Christ to be transformed and equipped. I will believe when he and TB repent in public for their involvement with occult spirits...the fallen spirit realm, and their manipulation and lies, then God may use them. It is absurd that RJ is calling Lee Grady self righteous...Lee is speaking only of the obvious. Rick you sure are on the defensive...if you are so righteous in your intentions they would not need such terse defensive remarks. You and Bill Johnson are not in any way qualified to mentor TB and bring him to place of change and repentance, as you and your philosophies and distortion of the scriptures are such a big part of the problem. You did not have the maturity or discernment before or during the Lakeland debacle, I sure doubt you have attained it by now. By the way, people who seek God with all their heart will receive from God through their faith...so there were those who were touched at Lakeland because of that, not because TB was some fount of Holy Spirit "impartation." I speak from a lot of experience over the years of seeking God with all my heart. Being taken out of new-age/mind science was a process over the years, and then another process of allowing God to work through me and not my soulish nature...He requires Holiness, it is not an option. True Holiness is not a popular subject in the hyper-charismatic, latter-rain, "new breed" community. How glad am I that the arrogance and deception of this "movement" is really beginning to be exposed. |
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NobodySpecial
said:
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... Lee, I find it very revealing that Mr Joyner choose an ad hominid attack questioning your right to weigh in on this topic, rather than addressing the points that you have made. From my point of view, you have as much authority and credibility in this matter as he does. The fact that you are a voice for one of the main Christian publications in the world give you that authority, if you in deed need it. I would much prefer that Mr Joyner would take the time to answer your concerns. Those questions are extremely critical for the welfare of the Church. I believe his refusal to do so, speaks volumes about him. Steve |
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Daytona Pastor Jim
said:
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Christ was filled with Grace and Truth Sin = mess, always. No, I don't particularly like Lee Grady's response for the reasons stated by Rick Joiner, but Lee made VERY important points and has the right to publicly make them. Todd Bentley's sin is no worse than any other adulterer EXCEPT that it was trumpeted around the world. As public the sin, so the discussion, so the repentance, so the restoration. Sorry, He gave away his right to privacy when he went public. As one of the guys who here in Florida has to sweep up after Todd Bentley, and with all due respect to Rick Joiner, I'm not interested in anything short of a Biblical response to the situation. By the way Brother Joiner, I may not have built a bomb, but I know when one has blown up. I suspect Lee Grady has eyes in his head too. Rick Joiner was either too busy or too offended to write that letter... he has invalidated whatever good points he made and has not helped Todd Bentley's case. My congratulations to Lee Grady, "Woe unto you when all men speak well of you." |
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motherlove1973
said:
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Why is it so hard to see? I do not understand how anyone at all ,could actually call themselves a Christian, and still support Todd Bentley's return as a minister! Why can't people see the lies in the church today? I am a "baby" Christian of 4 years and I see it so clearly! Is God not enough anymore? Is the bible not needed anymore because of the new, secret "revelation" given by men like Todd and Rick Joyner? Can verses of the bible be used out of context to support anything? Do you need any other human being to work out your salvation for you? Is the Blood of Jesus Christ (not the false Jesus you hear of) not enough? Is the excitement of false healing, false prophecies, lying signs and wonders , and the outright heretics in the third wave movement more important that the solemn word of the LIVING God? It is not supposed to be easy folks! Did Jesus have an easy time on the cross? We ARE NOT little mini-gods, just running around with super power! Where in the bible does it say (in context) that we are little man gods, who have been filled with the same power as our true GOD? We are nothing people, we are sinners forgiven and saved by THE GRACE OF A HOLY GOD ! Is that not exciting enough? Do we need people like Rick Joyner to restore someone to God's good grace? Who is he? Does he have something extra from God than we do not? NO! No he does not. Who is he to tell Lee Grady that he needs to apologize to him and Todd,etc? Apologize for what? He needs to apologize for telling the truth? I actually have a question for him.....Mr. Joyner if there are so many simple, everyday,Christian brother and sisters out in the world that have fallen then why did you not help them to find "restoration"? Why do you focus on the big name people only? Is it possibly for the press and money that you may receive from the masses that drives you to do these big name restorations? I do not expect honesty here, but you need to really think about it. If there was no money in it for you sir, I doubt you would be doing any of these so called restorations. Also I read about some of the things you believe and you really need to check yourself, you are just wrong my friend! Repent Mr. Joyner and live the life of a true God fearing Christian! I did not mean to be so winded, but I guess this topic really gets me going. My God and His Holy Word is sufficient! It does not need "new breathe" or any new revelation (no matter how much cash one can get from it). It is all I need. It is all we all need. How much scripture (in context) do you hear in most of the hyper Charismatic circles? I know, I have been there myself and it is very little if none. I thank God I started my walk at a church (Baptist) that while a little dull at times, fully teaches solid biblical truth! It was just that truth that saved me from beiong drawn any deeper into the web of the signs and wonders movement. I admit I was derailed due to some of TB's weird and un-biblical teachings, and almost lost all faith in our God due to the lies I had believed. God had other plans though, he sharpened my discernment and allowed me to see the truth. I will pray for us all (you too TB and Mr.J) to stop all this nonsense and to be able to discern the truth! |
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lastblast
said:
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... > I pray that too aa, but the truth is that there is no "biblical" remarriage outside of the death of a spouse. Even in the case of adultery, the "innocent' spouse is not given permission by God to remarry----see the second part of Mt. 19:9. We see this to be the case in Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39 where Paul teaches that DEATH, and only DEATH, dissolves the ONE flesh that God joined together. Paul even used the example of an adulterous wife in Rom. and still maintained that DEATH dissolved her bond to the original husband. I TOO want eyes opened so that those caught up in this acceptable sin (remarital adultery) will see their OWN sin, whether it was committed in ignorance or willful rebellion. God desires us to judge ourselves so that we do not come under HIS judgment.........and the church, due to the immorality and other sins found within are headed for severe judgment....................if we do not forsake our sins and return to Him..........Blessings........... http://www.cadz.net/mdr.html |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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Comment to Solange: Solomon himself was an adulterer. Guess you did not know that. He had so many wives and concubines it is amazing he never died of exhaustion. The culture of the time blinded him to God's original plan of ONE man and ONE wife. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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Supposed letter from Rick Joyner to Administrator: To the Christian who posted it, shame on you for such a deceitful letter. |
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aa
said:
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Words: Kind and not so kind Charlana and Steve, Thank you for your kind comments. I cannot begin to describe the suffering that has taken place in our church or the Fresh Fire Ministry in Canada. We need your prayers. I am shocked at the tenor of Rick Joyner's post. Busy-ness is not an excuse not to edit by the Holy Spirit what you say publicly. You are threatening Mr. Grady. Is this what minister's of the gospel of good news do? Your letter also sounds accusatory and self-righteous. Will God have grace for you if you continue in this tenor? Jesus took a whip and drove out the money changers. He said His Father's House was to be a house of prayer, not a den of iniquity. Should you not offer prayer for Mr. Grady rather than bald threats? I am a divorced woman. My husband committed adultery and I raised two children on my own. It is not easy being a single parent. Your children are stigmatized in both the secular and Christian community. My new husband's x-wife also committed adultery. Both our x's remarried before we ever even met. Every divorce situation has to be judged on its own merits. There are those who refuse to follow the tenets of God and carry on in their sin much to the chagrin of their spouse, children, friends, and family. God gave them a free will to choose His path or not. There is nothing we can do if they refuse to be persuaded. I pray God will open the eyes of the sinners and that they will repent before it is too late. The judgement of God is coming. |
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lastblast
said:
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Solange Is Rick or is he not counselling TB to forsake this present adulterous relationship? If he is not doing that RIGHT NOW, then he is NOT abiding by Mt. 18. We are to call each other from immorality...............TB can not be restored AND continue practicing adultery----period. |
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Solange
said:
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Talebearers The words of a talebearer are wounds that go deep in the innermost part of the belly. Most of you writers do not choose to believe these words since they were penned by an adulterer, the wisest human named Solomon in Proverbs 26:22 And God bless Rick Joyner for knowing what Mt 18 says about HOW we deal with sin in the body! |
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Globalgospel
said:
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"she can be 'saved' in child rearing" Just finished watching Juanita Bynam ex being interviewed over TBN by AR Bernard. Could'nt help but think also of many couples with different goals and asperations re: ministry, etc. When it comes to couples with vastly different ideas re: ministry- THE BIBLE SAYS TO THE WOMAN "SHE WILL BE MADE WHOLE ONLY IN CHILD RAISING". Therefore, the former wife has her mandate. The former husband has his! His ideas re: ministry come first in God's eyes and in his Word. When marriages come to blows (like in Juanita's case) it is taken very serious even by the World's standards. Both were doing "pushing and shoving". If the woman does not back off and let her husband LEAD as to ministry and calling, she will NEVER by saved (made whole) except in devoting her time and efforts to the raising of children (adopted or not) |
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lastblast
said:
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Will Will, you are ABSOLUTELY correct!!!!! That is the biggest problem in the church----hypocrisy. It is because we tolerate some immorality (adultery, packaged as legalized remarriage) that those who are also in sin discount our "counsel/rebuke". God was very clear that we are to clean up our own houses...............starting with ourselves, then our local churches, then Christianity overall----BEFORE we address/try to fix other's sins. Now, do I think it is wrong to address Todd's PRESENT state of adultery?? No. It SHOULD be addressed as should all the other sins he has publically committed and has yet to address. It should also be mentioned that TRUE repentance in Todd's case, biblical repentance, would entail the forsaking of his present adulterous relationship. He will NEVER be restored in truth until this takes place. If Mr. Joyner thinks Todd can do every thing BUT repent of adultery, he is sadly mistaken and does not know the Word of God very well. If Mr. Joyner continues his present path, I worry for his eternal soul...........God is NOT mocked. The church says they are hungering for revival............It WILL NOT come until there is a corporate act of repentance like we saw in Ezra 9-10. Until we are willing to separate ourselves from the adulterous relationships we are in, we will NOT see a TRUE revival. What we will continue to see are more and more FALSE revivals such as those seen in Lakeland and Toronto. REAL revival changes lives and brings people to their knees in TRUE, LASTING, LIFE-CHANGING repentance. If we choose to continue viewing legalized adultery as the world sees it (remarriage after divorce is AOK) instead of defining marriage as God does and adultery as God does, we will continue reaping the rotten fruit we have sown in the ground........and our children will grow farther and farther from the God of the Bible because we have perverted who He is and have perverted His judgment of sin. Very scary the days we are living in. http://www.marriagedivorce.com |
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Rick Joyner’s Response to Lee Grady’s Column, “The Tragic Scandal of Greasy Grace”, Lowly rated comment [Show]
Will G
said:
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Remarriage is wrong but Charisma is hypocritical by having a double standard Jesus, Paul, and John the baptist explicitly declared all remarriage adultery. However, a divided church based upon consumerism can never enforce excommunication as the Roman church did until recently. Even in the Roman church, it is now possible to get an annulment to make the way for a remarriage. That said, it is obscene how the Charismatics, Evangelicals, and others have lined up to attack Todd Bentley even though 50 percent of their own congregations and many of their ministers are remarried. HYPOCRITES!!! Im talking to you Lee Grady and Charisma!!! Excommunicate the remarried out of your own church before you try to call for the excommunication of people you dont know except for their fame. You are worse than the papparazzi attacking the Hollywood divas for their every false move. |
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stevebo
said:
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pondering over the years i've seen some pretty amazing signs and wonders... I am convinced that God entrusts people with His gifts. The word entrust is a huge word. en·trust 1. To give over (something) to another for care, protection, or performance: 2. To give as a trust to (someone) 3. to give (someone) a duty or responsibility: 4. to put (something) into the care of someone: That He would trust any of us with His gifts of grace is amazing to me. How we operate, administer His gifts given to us within that area of trust is something I don't hear much about any more. In other words He gives the gifts and how we operate, use, or administer the gift is really up to us. The gifts found in flawed men should bring a sense of humility and honor instead of pride, and showmanship. If we respect the Giver it seems to me we should respect the gift given and seek to administer, protect His gifts properly. As a friend of mine say, the messenger is the message. Jesus said, you will know them by their fruit. An honest look at the fruit of some recent and past revivals and I see, bible colleges destroyed because of pride, people being used, revivals destroyed by a persons sense of self importance and entitlement etc. It's no wonder thinking spiritual people stand back and ask the questions. If this is God why is the fruit so rotten? If this is God how can people using 'His gifts' produce such bad behavior? 1+1 doesn't = 2. You are right no one seems to understand gifts are given, but character is grown. My hope is that people who are entrusted would once again seek to carefully, and purposefully respect and honor the Giver ... our Lord Jesus Christ who is above all, and from Whom all things exsist. |
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dsc0tt2
said:
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... Rick, you have just damaged your credibility with me and many others. Todd, you need to dismantle your ministry completely. Shonna, wherever you are, don't let this lack of leadership effect your love for the Lord. I'm sure it's not what He would have wanted. And Lee, thanks again for saying what needs to be said. Scott |
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rpt
said:
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This is not complicated... The RJ-TB video reminds me of John McCain with Rick Warren on national television, in which Rick said it is ok within the church for a leader to dump his older first wife and children for a younger new one and start a new family. No problem and no embarrassing questions if the guy says "I'm so sorry my first marriage failed [because I committed adultery and abandoned my wife and kids]" TB is following this role model which the church endorsed. Rush Limbaugh and New Gingrich (3 wives each) are in the same class. We don't even need go back to Henry VIII and the founding of the Anglican Church. You do not need any scripture or new revelation or prophetic insight to analyze this, it is an old pattern. Bringing up Mrs. TB I and the kids is just in bad taste and will only interfere with "the Restoration". It's like a tv show: "The Restoration: Todd Bentley Edition". In this episode TB spends time at the beach with his immigration lawyer..........Of course if he stayed with his family in Canada he would not need an immigration lawyer. |
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Robingael
said:
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Thanks for telling the truth Thanks Lee Grady, we need more Godly men that will take a stand for what is true, and not cave into what is popular, or to pressure, ot to fear. Fear never, never pleases God, it is the antitheses of love. I could not go into detail here due to lack of space of what I have gone through with being involved in new-age deception and the lies of the fallen spirit realm that has so captured Todd Bentley. I do know that the deception that is running rampant through the church is setting people up for 2Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness But when deception is taught in the church it can be so subltle...and of course mixed in with truth, because that is the way satan does it. The metaphor, symbolism, gnosticism, and the plain twisting of what scripture is saying is increasing with the pursuit of the "supernatural." 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. Of course I believe in the supernatural...God is supernatural. But supernatural manifestations do not ever define truth...TRUTH is defined by the Word of God. If a manifestation is declared to be of the Holy Spirit than it must reflect God's holy character and nature. The following is an excerpt from Protection From Deception by Derek Prince: "Another danger that threatens those who minister in the supernatural realm is the temptation to use spiritual gifts to manipulate or exploit or dominate people. At one period in my ministry I found myself casting spirits of witchcraft out of church-going people. Eventually, I asked the Lord to show me the true nature of witchcraft. I believe the Lord gave me the following definition: Witchcraft is the attempt to control people and get them to do what you want by the use of any spirit that is not the Holy Spirit. After I had digested this, the Lord added: And if anyone has a spirit that he can use, it is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, and no one uses God. That is very important. The Holy Spirit is God, and no one uses God. Then I went on to say, Today I tremble inwardly when I see or hear of a person who claims that he has spiritual gifts which he is free to use just as he pleases. It is surely no accident that some of those who have made such claims have ended in serious doctrinal error." |
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Robingael
said:
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Ready to go back into "ministry" ? I am hoping the body of Christ will pray that this man be truly delivered from the deception he walks in, and that he will have mature mentors with real discernment. After seeing the Lakeland video last year of Bill Johnson's humanistic diatribe in defense of Todd Bentley, it was no surprise to me at all that there was not one shred of true discernment from the group that "commissioned" him.(Please note that I believe fully that the "gifts are for today" (1 Cor.14) One may "use" their gift to manipulate, but if they are manipulating it is not under the unction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of God is never manipulated; God is not some "force" that can ever be manipulated. If manipulation is going on, it is through other "spirits"... that take entry to operate in or around us through our own soul power. (I recommend "The Latent Power of the Soul" by Watchman Nee) God's angels are never "used", for they are described as being His servants and do only what they are directed to do or say by the will of the Father. There is a video clip of Todd Bentley addressing an audience and declaring that "in those times that God is not moving, he depends on his gift." Again, to worsen the whole debacle, he states that "in those times when God is not moving, that he moves God." I am afraid, Todd, you have the wrong god...or should I say spirit. God is not subject to our manipulation, nor our demands. Another sad example of this sort of manipulation comes from his book Angelic Host, where he describes and "encounter" involving a group of people: "These throne-room realities began to be revealed to me in the meeting in Iowa as I gave thanks to God for the angelic beings. I made a conscious effort to remember that angels are in the spirit realm. As soon as I did that, throughout the service people were caught up into prophetic experiences. People in the service either saw a vision, heard heaven or smelt, touched, felt or had some kind of supernatural experience. Many people literally began to see the same open-eyed vision while others began to have different visions. It didn't matter whether the lights were on or off or whether people's eyes were open or closed." “In retrospect, I realize that the only thing to get us into the throne room was my conscious decision to think about what it looked like in the heavenlies at that moment in the service. I had also begun to acknowledge the angelic realm". So Todd "made a conscious effort to remember", and "my conscious decision to think about," and "acknowledge the angelic realm." This is essentially about what Todd is doing, not God. It is blatant manipulation, it is sorcery. It is having a door open to the fallen spirit realm, which deceives, and being caught up in the sensuous realm of metaphysical and psychic phenomenon with a religious veneer to it all... God's angels are never manipulated. I have been there and done that, along with all the astral travel, spirit beings, electricity, etc. There is no Biblical bases for it. God certainly does speak to people, and His angels do appear and give messages, but it is not dependant on any sort of manipulation! Fasting and prayer yes, sovereign visitations yes, and they are done HIS way, not ours. How sorry I am for the gullible, ignorant audience, most of whom are probably there because they are hungry for the things of God. What they are receiving is a lesson on witchcraft...an induction into spiritual prostitution. I have seen enough of TB's videos to realize that he is thoroughly deceived, so the adultery and lies were no great surprise...but it is very disheartening when narcissism, violence, and deceit is applauded by those who are older, and should know better. Anyone that has even a basic understanding of the Bible will know that when there is a "manifestation" that is of the Holy Spirit it will reflect the character and nature of God...the Word and the Spirit are inseparable. So it is no surprise that TB's "teachings" are filled with twisted views on the scripture...many of his quotes from the Bible are presented in an allegorical, metaphorical form. I read such nonsense years ago, as I was very much into the new-age/mind science groups back in the late 60's and early 70's. I am acutely aware of these techniques and the "spirits" behind them. It is shocking that TB's so called mentors are "leaders" that have sizeable churches and followings...they are completely void of any discernment. I am afraid they are swallowed up in their own covetousness, and are seduced by the sensationalism, and false sense of "power" that comes with the perversions of the hyper-charismatic "movement." As God is truly testing our hearts in these difficult days, I can see the forming of what I call the Matthew 7:21-23 line. |
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Tirzah
said:
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... I just have one question. When will we, the Church, learn to trust and use the standards set in Titus 1:6-9? "An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." |
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firespeaks
said:
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step over dead bodies Many years ago when i was in the military Stationed in Fort Hood TX I caught a plan form Dallas to Philadelphia with a stop over in Chicago. The layover was about 4 hours so i decided to go into center city Chicago maybe to get some last minute shopping in. While I was walking down one busy street i heard a large commotion, and saw a car speeding off from the other side of the street. right where the car was parked was a man lying in his a pool of his own blood, apparently shoot by someone is that car. What bother me the most was not that he was shot, as much as while in lay dieing not one person so much as looked his way, people actually stepped over him as if nothing had happened. These people had become completely desensitized to the violence and murder on the streets, the murder and the collateral damage was not nearly as important as them going about their life as usual. Because no one care enough to call the police, or lend a hand or fight back Chicago became the murder capital of the United States. and much of the murder could be avoided if someone would just act as if they cared. This is the same problem with the church today, member of the congregation are as helpless and powerless as the citizens of Chicago. Because no one says anything, and no one hold these church leaders accountable for their actions, this type of thing will continue to happen. Malachi 1:6-7 |
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Dr. Who
said:
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Oy-Vey! I don't know which I find more appauling: The fact that Todd Bentley has done this or that he and other leaders expect that we will just let this slide and "re-accept" Todd as a viable leader. We are called to judge fruit, but I can honestly say that I do not know how to judge these kinds of nuts and flakes. Lord Jesus help us....I feel like I am walking down the cereal isle at the supermarket here lately. Unfortunately, this sorta wackyness is kinda what I expected out of Todd Bentley. I am VERY disappointed in Rick though. I was thinking that he (and Bill Johnson) would have been the voice of some sanity here and convinced him to do the right thing. I will give them the benefit of a doubt and state that they probably tried to talk some sanity into Todd. However, by Rick releasing this statement about Todd, and also stating that he will continue to be associated with him for further restoration.....I think that was a bad move on Rick's part. By doing so, he now is giving Todd validation in what he has done and is doing now. Rick needed to separate from Todd if he was not willing to come under authority. Otherwise, Rick and Bill are saying that what Todd did is okay. It's not. Todd, Rick, and Bill need to wake up and realize what most of us on this posting have--that the church is not as STUPID as it was before! Church leaders should have high standards of accountability. I feel as if church politics came into play here. We want--pray, NEED godly leaders who will do the right thing. We need leaders we can look up to--even when dealing with terrible sin of other leaders. Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart tried the short cuts--and failed. Grace is not greasy, but is can be messy. We need leaders who will not be afraid to get their hands dirty and clean up the mess--the right way! I think I am going to start a church down at my local wastewater treatment plant...the smell might be better there. By the way....Lee's article stated that Todd's "ministry" was collecting donnations. I gotta feeling that Todd's next "ministry" is going to be collecting tickets at the Scooby Doo ride at Carowinds in Charlotte. |
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Globalgospel
said:
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last days "nets" All you caught in these last days nets, make sure you're not flopping out in all your flip flopping and failure to see yourselves first, and foremost as also in Romans 2:17-25, onward. Let now him/her who is without sin, let him/her cast the first stone? Do NOT judge before "the time"!!! Are you all trying to tell us we have already arrived at "THE TIME" for all this flipping/flopping? At least the former wife is not being judged before the time by the flippers and floppers as of yet? How any of you knows the complete picture over a longer period of time than Lakeland? |
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submit to Word
said:
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keep it up Please, please, for the sake of the Church, and the need for godliness, keep up these questions!!!! Please! Too many of us are reeling from the disobedience that is promoted and encouraged in the name of Greasy grace, Sloppy Agape, and other ways to sidestep submission to God. Leaders, spouses, whole churches entertaining a "new gospel" which does not teach repentance nor true restoration...... True restoration is not about soothing hurt feelings, it is about turning away from evil! ( I wonder about TB needing healing? Is adultery the new healing balm? It will sting when we enter into sin) It is about having one's mind renewed through the washing of the Word. It is about returning to godliness and trying to find out what pleases the Lord. It is not taking one's salvation for granted but giving one's life to the service of the King, no matter what the cost. |
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Harley
said:
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what else are you looking for? am writing across many oceans... this debate about TB goes on and on...and I find the recurrent message of "do not judge". Let us stick to the point> 1. Somebody molested another person..yes this happened when he was still a juvenile...ok 2. Somebody became a christian and later was in the ministry and kept lying...he is a growing minister...ok 3. Somebody was teaching ppl and was personally having marital problems...well it's ok 4. Somebody was in the ministry was using foul language..that's ok....do not judge..be lenient brother.. 5. Somebody was in the ministry and actually leading a revival...and having an extra marital affair..that's ok brother...there's miracles..and the "anointing' brother..it's ok 6.Somebody was in the ministry and leading an international ministry and was a drunk...it's ok 7. Somebody was in the ministry and speaking to the dead and seeing angels and indulging in false teaching..it's ok...he is on TV brother.. 8. Somebody is now divorced..and has remarried...and wants to be back in the ministry..that's ok brother do not judge.. Now for one minute...has not the Bible..the word of God...already judge this perdon...What type of fruit are we looking forth? Are we blinded..why dont we helped those that are really in need instead of spending all our energy arguing on that which God has already judged by his very word!.... |
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WiseReaction
said:
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Divorce & Remarriage is Adultery! What did Jesus, the Apostle Paul and the early Church fathers have to say? Divorce & Re-Marriage is Adultery! for FREE downloads on Creational Covenantal Marriage http://www.WiseReaction.org  |
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4kiki
said:
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You're expecting too much Diamonds aren't found in coal mines. Quit looking for true riches in these crowd pleasing circles. You will waste your life. Let the dead bury their dead, but you go and preach the Kingdom of God. I know this sounds harsh but it really is liberating. Come out from among them. The frustration comes from trying to "fix" something that never was whole or pure to begin with. Bentley is just a product of a much bigger deception. Come out, take a deep breath and then set your eyes on Christ and Him alone, once again. Glory! |
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live4nextgeneration
said:
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as a child of divorce...heed wisdom Somebody has to stand up and say, "NO MORE!" No more covenant breaking treated lightly in the church! As a child of divorce, I can tell you, it is a heart-wrenching experience and can take a long time to heal. If we just look around, we can see the devastation caused by a fatherless society riddled by divorce. Covenant breaking for the sake of pleasure of self is carnal, plain and simple, Yes, restoration is available, but not to a ministry postion. Even a donkey have prophetic utterance and I do not mean to be demeaning, but Biblically speaking, gifts are given by God without repentance, they are gifts. A foundation of character must be wider than the gift of the person, otherwise, the temptation to get into pride that will ulitmatelylead to deception becomes too great. for that person. It is not just about that person and THEIR destiny! What about the next generation and their destiny? For the next generation and the one after that, I beseech the church to act wisely in matters of restoration and the message that it will convey to the church to come! We must have a Kingdom mentality! |
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stevehill
said:
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Thanks Lee! Why would Bentley have faith for his "ministry" to be restored and accept "accountability and discipline" for that but have no faith for his marriage to be restored and accept accountability and discipline in that? All who seek to help him now are simple aiding and abetting his disfunction. |
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StevePage
said:
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... @ aa I think you make some very points. I had not really fully considered those in Canada who lost jobs because of this deception. I wonder why Transform International trusts Bill Johnson's wisdom though. He had no wisdom or discernment about Todd Bentley from the beginning. He was unable to hear or recognize the voice of God when he commissioned Bentley. He is largely responsible because of his words and actions that gave Bentley credibility. And though he may acknowledge his failure and though you have all forgiven him, he is no less a man with no discernment. I suggest you find other help. Maybe Johnson's church would be willing to support the unemployed as a show of acknowledgment, love and support. I pray the Lord will guide you and those hurt by Bentley, Johnson, Joyner, Wagner, Sheets, Ahn and all the other self proclaimed apostles. God Bless |
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KingDavid68
said:
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... This hurts the Bod of Christ. I feel that TB intended to do this from the begining. He should step down. In fact I don't believe that he should be a pastor again. Trust has been broken. My question is: Why couldn't restoration happen with his First Wife? I am married myself; my wife ran out on me numorus times with other guy's. The last time she did it; I was almost ready to divorce her. I had Biblical grounds. But God!!! God had a different plan. I am reminded of Hosea. Hosea was told by God to take a pagan wife a prositute. She left him, and God tells him to go and get her back. Hosea even bought his wife back. This was to demonstrait to the Children of Israel that God loved them. At the end Hosea's wife Gomer became a believer and loved Hosea. This is what God has said to me. The wounds are there and counceling is needed and sought for both of us. Because I am not perfect either. I did not sin as my wife did; but there are still things that I have to change. Marrige is not as much for each other(thecouple). But marrige is to mae each other Holy. "The two shall become one flesh" Over the course of our marrige I am understanding this better and better. |
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charlanakelly
said:
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To more x-family To: more x-family This is exactly what I shared about in yesterday's post. It's the sheep that are wounded the most in these situations. Some responses have called people pharisees and accused others of judging one they have no business judging, but this is not about the basic tenants of the Christian faith. It's about... To whom much is given, much will be required. People who desire to be leaders in God's kingdom are held to a higher accountability. This whole situation is a "WOE" and leaders better take heed. I myself am one, and believe me I am shaking in my boots and opening my heart to God lest when I think I stand I fall. Sir/madam my heart breaks for you and those you represent. I know that God Himself will be faithful, loving and kind to those whose hearts have been broken. I pray that each one would be strengthened in the Lord and would be able to recognize their perfect God in this imperfect world. May God have mercy on the souls of leaders who destroy the lives of God's precious people for their own selfish personal gain. |
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meugene
said:
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Three Times a Failure Let us not forget that Todd has long been disqualified as a minister who repeatedly lied and covered up his sin, all the while collecting millions of dollars in support. A previous so-called sabbatical -- also allegedly from "burnout" -- was due to marital infidelity with a different staffer. This event was also covered up and lied about -- not just by Todd, but by his former ministry, and by those who call themselves apostles, and are not (Rev 2:2). The Lakeland fiasco never should have happened, and a tent never should have been erected, because Todd was already in sin at that time, according to insiders. But not only that, but let us not forget something even more egregious than Todd's moral failure: Along with many others who supported him on stage in Lakeland, he is a failed false prophet. Why? Because, among dozens of other spectacularly failed prophecies, Jesus Christ never appeared on stage as foretold by Wendy Alec and repeated by Bentley (Benny Hinn also made this unbiblical claim years ago). Jesus declared, "If any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect." (Mark 13:21). Bentley failed the test as a husband (Eph 5:25-28); he failed the test for a minister (1 Tim 3:2-6) and he still fails the test for a prophet (Deu 18:22). His wacky visions of angels of light called Emma (who mysteriously changed sex from female to male on his website overnight), his profane "healing" and lying that God told him to "kick the woman in the face" etc. By God's Word, he was not ministering under HOLY spirit during any of these times. By God's Word (not mine) he spoke lies, he is one whom Scripture calls an "unruly and vain talker, whose mouth must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. Tragically, Todd Bentley's unbiblical teachings reveal that he is "deceived, and deceiving others' (2 Tim 3:13). Let him be forgiven, yes. But let him be shunned until he repents of all of these things, which Scripture defines as sorcery. "There shall not be found among you...a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer" (Deut 18:10-11). "The soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people" (Lev 20:6). That goes for Joyner's false visions and meetings with alleged dead saints as well, which has earned him great fame and fortune. This is necromancy, folks -- communing with deceiving spirits (angels of light) who only masquerade as departed saints. Wake up, smell the coffee, and read your Bibles! "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). Lastly, what of the false prophets and apostles who allowed this to happen? And those who excused it? And those who proclaimed Todd would take the false "Third Wave" revival to the world? And those who, in spite of not one documented "resurrection from the dead" called Todd Bentley "the real deal" as did Bill Johnson? What a sham! What a shame! "The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?" (Jeremiah 5:31). "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:3-4). "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev 2:5). |
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aa
said:
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more x-family Bachman this is still affecting the church and the community he left behind. Not only did Todd divorce Shonnah and the children, he divorced Fresh Fire Ministry, the leadership, the associates and interns, the church base, and all his employees. There are many wounded here in Abbotsford and Canada. Todd was given counseling for his marriage and apparently God told him to take a sabbatical. He was given a specific length of time by God which he ignored. During that time he went to Africa and ended up in the hospital. Our leadership tried hard to work with Todd and we all prayed and wept for the restoration of his marriage. Our church is the laughingstock of our community thanks to Todd. FFM supporters are not speaking to friends and neighbors who belong to other denominations who wonder what happened. All of this has caused great division and harm to our community. No one is here helping us get over this. However, Bill Johnson is involved with trying to help our church and the newly minted 'Transform International' get on its feet. As a regular at my church, I am grieved at these premature announcements of Todd's return to ministry. It is timed exactly when we are putting on our first conference and Shonnah is going on the first missions trip to Uganda under Transform International. Todd called himself a 'businessman' at a church meeting in September 2007. I wonder if this timing is a shrewd business move to make sure he loses as few supporters as possible to TI while retaining their $$$ at FFM USA. There has been no concern shown for the 64 orphans and the ministry in Uganda either that remained with Transform International. The family was much larger than just Todd and Shonnah. There are a lot of hurt family members including both his and her families that also worked for FFM. No one has said how Todd's Dad is doing. Rick Joyner talks about 'failing fathers' in his release. Todd's Dad was a big supporter of his ministry and there has been no word regarding his health in the matter. Many employees lost their jobs or left in indignation. Some still have not found employment and are struggling. Where is the financial support for them? Where is the love for all the broken, hurting people left at home? It is easy to apologize over the impersonal internet. I invite Todd to come back home and apologize in person to all the people he has wounded. Then he should carry on to Sechelt and apologize to that community as well. Your support for Shonnah and the children, both locally and globally at the Uganda Jesus Village, can be addressed to Transform Central formerly known as Global Harvest Centre in Abbotsford, BC. |
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lastblast
said:
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... God's grace IS big enough to rescue anyone from the penalty of their sin. However, unless Todd forsakes the adultery he is in, he will not be reconciled to the Lord, let alone his covenant wife. Paul was very clear in his warnings to the BRETHREN: be not deceived, ADULTERERS will not inherit the kingdom of God. Todd, and Mr. Joyner need to heed those words spoken by Paul as well as what Jesus said in Mt. 7:21-24...............it IS a life and death choice. |
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J. Scot Brien
said:
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Grace Paul called our callous nature out in Romans, noting that men would rather use Grace as an excuse to keep sinning than an incentive to change. I have no idea where Todd Bentley's heart is, but his behavior leaves me numb. Theologians argue whether Jesus, when speaking on divorce in Mark 10, meant the man who married another woman after divorcing his wife, or the one who divorced his wife to marry the other woman. Again, I have no basis to judge Bentley, but it is deplorable that he marry this other woman so soon after divorcing Shonna. I pray for Shonna and her three children. But I pray moreso for Todd. Though he has fallen, God's grace is big enough to rescue him wherever he is. God still loves Todd Bentley, and so do I. |
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James Bell
said:
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... Rick Joyner, if you are reading this (yeah, right) please consider these questions to be directed to your friend you are rehabing: 1. How do you define "ministry" now, and will your approach be different next time? 2. What will true repentance and a desire to submit to the Lord's will change in your ministry? 3. How do you feel about your mentor's unqualified support for your ministry when it was masking drunkeness, drugs, and adultry? Is he really the one to mentor you? Rick, if you are uncomfortable with these questions, should you really be the one to mentor this man? |
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Bachman
said:
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Why is CHARISMA so obsessed with Todd Bentley? Todd is barely even a footnote in 2008, late alone 2009. Why does Charisma report it as "news" and devote a column to his divorce/remarriage? All it does is "stir up" people to express all sorts of opinions and outrage, when in reality, what he does / doesn't do has pretty much zero impact on the Body of Christ now. Like Ted Haggard has no impact. And so forth. The "world" doesn't even know or care who Todd is, and Christians who feel his behavior--or those in leadership over him--impacts their walk with Christ should take a sobering look at who they are/were following. For months, hundreds us "warned" CHARISMA about its reportage of the "revival" Todd was involved in, pleaded with you to investigate it and not just report on it like printing a press release. Many in the Body of Christ knew it was a sham and wrong, yet for several months, you printed the events but never questioned it. Until it all fell apart...and NOW you have such outrage over his divorce and remarriage? Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.... |
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MomQ
said:
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Sin plain and simple People seem to be confused. Is it right or wrong? Todd was and is a false prophet from the beginning, don't know about his salvation, that's between him and God. We all sin, and we pay for our actions, but with the elite of the TV evangelists sin is somehow different. How convenient to sin and then go on with a ministry and all is okay. It's the people who follow him that are to blame, don't support a false prophet! We are so afraid of judging people that we allow anything. Jesus said to judge rightly. The country shows the problem of our church, God help us. |
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woody
said:
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THE TRAGIC SCANDAL OF GREASY GRACE Good Morning Lee: It was good to open your newsletter this morning and see that my husband and I are not alone in our thinking. His first questions are the same as yours. I might add to this, the children. Who is ministering to his family? How do they develop a heathy love for Christian principals? Todd accepts his "responsibility" for the demise of his marriage. Was not his first responsibility to his wife and children? Was he not the head of his family? Those who are in the Church are to be judged by the Body. What I've gathered from remarks made by both Joyner and Bently is that they are ,especially Todd, going about the business of restoration in order to continue where Todd left off. That should not be without a clear confession of sin. "confess your sins one to another" Nowhere in scripture does "mistake" replace the word, "sin". I say this as a member of the Body of Believers and from a sense of love, not condemnation. The process of revival of one's heart is not simple. There is learned behavior, a wounded spirit and stongholds that must be addressed. We pray the best ofr Todd, his families and the church. Sincerely Lilly |
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eloop07
said:
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The Restoration Process Rick J. is a dear brother BUT what is his track record when it comes to helping others with the restoration process? How exactly is he defining the restoration process. |
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StevePage
said:
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... I do not understand why Bentley's ministry should be restored. He should be forgiven by all of us, but trusted again? It's not the adultery, though that's a factor, there are YEARS of documented lying. These lies are documented in the books he has written, in interviews and on video. Why is his history of unrepentant dishonesty not an issue? |
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lastblast
said:
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... rahab, The thing is, none of your post refers us back to God's Word. Todd sinned (by divorcing his wife) and Todd is still in sin (by remaining in adultery per Jesus' definition of adultery). Just because Todd believes a divorce "finished" his marriage, that is not what Jesus taught, nor what Paul taught. A divorce does NOT free one to marry another. Paul was very clear to say that the Lord commanded this: "if a woman DOES depart, she is to remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband". The same goes for Todd. He is nowhere in scripture given the AOK to find/marry another woman. The Lord spoke clearly and plainly that should such a man marry, he is committing adultery.........there is nothing in scripture to even lead us to believe that once someone makes a new vow that the original one is dissolved---quite the contrary (Mal. 2). |
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bradrherman
said:
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to rahabsplace Rahabsplace, I hear what you are saying. My only question is when exactly did Todd remarry? Did Rick, Bill, and Jack approve of this? Was he under accountability then, or did he step out and do his own thing during that particular time? Now that he is sorry for doing it, is everything back to normal and the restoration process goes on? That has been my question from the start of receiving the email report from Morningstar. I do believe that Todd can and should be restored, but there seems to be a lot of gray areas surrounding this whole situation. If I were Rick I wouldn't send out any reports, and I definitely wouldn't send out a video featuring Todd. Like my friend Brian said, Todd needs a mop, a bucket, and silence for quite some time. |
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rahabsplace
said:
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Well, let's see Todd and Shonnah have been in counseling for YEARS. The destruction of their marriage was something that they struggled with for a very long time. When Todd filed for divorce, that meant he was DONE, just like it has with millions of other Christians in churches all over this country. They filed for divorce in August. My understanding is that it was final in January. Where I live, you can file for divorce and it can be finalized in as little as a week. Thirty days is average. Shonnah and the kids are in their home, attending their home church, surrounded by their friends and family. Of the two, Shonnah has had the better support system in place since the beginning of this. Todd has not been hiding. He has, at Rick Joyner's request, been dealing with his immigration issues. For him to have moved to SC before those issues were resolved, he would have had to start from the beginning again. Rick asked him to stay and take care of them before coming to SC. Todd has consistently been in contact with his restoration team through out this time. My question is do you people treat the divorced people in your church like this? My God, no wonder the wounded and hurting won't come near us. 50% or more of the church is divorced, yet you act like what is going on with Todd Bentley is so out of the ordinary. His story is repeated every day in your church. The only difference is that he had a national ministry that was hated. Charles Stanley pulled the same kind of lying (I'm not called to marriage, I'm called to ministry) and was separated from his wife for YEARS as a pastor, and I don't remember this kind of outcry. He never missed a service through his divorce. Can you tell me why the standards are so different if divorce is so evil? |
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lastblast
said:
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Blue Blue, Amen and Amen!!!! I cannot get over the fact that people seem to think restoration means you can keep committing adultery (stay with the one God says you are committing adultery with because you have a piece of paper legalizing your adultery). REAL restoration means to forsake YOUR SIN and be reconciled to the one GOD joined you too. We seem to think that we can continue joining ourselves to whoever we want and God will bless that. If a relationship has not been "joined" by God, it is not a marriage---whether it be between two heterosexuals or two homosexuals. Just because the law of the land legallizes a union, does not mean that such a union is sanctioned by him. Todd is in adultery, pure and simple, and many in the professing church, because they too are in adultery, cannot see what the real problem is here. There is a great blindness covering this land, where we can easily see the sin in Todd, but miss the same sin (packaged differently) in ourselves.........Lk. 16:16-18, Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39, I Cor. 7:10-12, Mal. 2:10-17 |
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Linda
said:
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... You make many valid points. I am in a similar situation--adulteress who took husband from wife #1, leaving behind hurt and devestated ex-wife, children, and church community. [Understatement] And, I am also younger. My opinion is that people are tempted and stay in this sin because we are believing lies. Mr. Bentley stated that his marriage had years' worth of unresolved conflict. He may have believed the lie that God could not/would not resolve those conflicts. He may have believed that he and/or his wife could not/would not grow past those conflicts. Or perhaps he believed that he was at the end of his tolerance capability and that it was "too late" even if she/he did change. My now husband also believed similar lies and so did I. Divorce and remarriage are not what God intended for his people. Both are grievous, cruel, excruciating things. We are all human and all fall terribly short. If I did not have God's forgiveness and grace I would--without doubt--be enroute to hell at death. God hates divorce. He hates adultery....He has also restored all of us--ex-wife is now remarried--to unexplainable peace, wholeness, and completion. Husband's children and 1st wife have completely forgiven him and all have close, salubrious relationship. It is not perfect and not even close to God's intention for his people. Nevertheless, God has made healing from the brokenness of our terrible choices. I will pray for Shonnah. I will do my best to forgive others and practice Galations 6:1, restoring gently while ensuring that sin does not overtake me in the process. |
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StevePage
said:
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... @PastorDoug777, Stargazer, There are ample proven incidents of Bentley's lying, in addition to his drunkenness and adultery. Enough to prove that he has not been in the will of the Lord for several years before the event at Lakeland. Those who are earnest in pursuing the truth and testing the spirit of this man can find ample documented evidence of this. In scripture we are often told to be earnest in pursuing the truth and testing the spirits. It is either dishonest or naive to trivialize his actions by calling them mistakes. Because of Bentley's well documented and very public history of unrepentant lies we can only only believe that he is one of the "false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ." How else to we recognize the false if not by there action? Though there might be some good that comes from the masquerade, it must be exposed for the sake of the name of Jesus. His lies are his fruit. Jesus said, Matthew 5:"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering." Bentley has sinned against the general public by publicly lying and selling books that contain lies. He will not be repentant until he takes the initiative and publicly confesses those lies and repents. Let's pray he repents, is reconciled to the body and that the Lord allows him to deceive no one else. |
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cwilly1942
said:
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Keep Preaching The truth Lee Great job Lee, Some fokes attend a few bible studys and think they know every thing. Before the Church can move forward we must get the sin out. Or, We can continue on petting each other untill we reach the gates of hell. The word teaches we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. It also teaches if we so much as wish people like Todd Gods speed, we are partakers of his evil deeds. I feel some that responded to your message need to sit down and read the whole bible. Keep on keeping on brother Lee. |
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whollyworship
said:
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THANKS FOR STANDING FOR TRUTH Lee, Once again, I am thankful that there are still men who have the courage to stand against the truly ungodly conduct of many who call themselves "Followers of Jesus". I often wonder if the reason that "sin" has become such a distastful word is that it causes such a conviction in the soul of a human being. When we use other more acceptable words, there seems to be no problem...just don't call it "sin"! Finally, I wonder if the reason that we are not talking and preaching about "sin" these days is that it has become so acceptable and widespread that there are few left with a "clear conscience". We say "Don't judge" and could the reason be that we could be the next one who comes under the "LIght of God" and our sin will be exposed? It makes you wonder! Thanks again Lee for speaking up and having the courage of your convictions!! Rob Reid, Barrie, Ontario, Canada |
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Yinka Jackson
said:
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Greasy grace indeed! True and proper repentance is for Todd to receive forgiveness and seek reconcilation with his family first. Anything short of that is an attack on the character of God -the author of marriage- and a slap on the body of Christ. This latest scandal - yes that is what it is - is one more ammunition in the hands of Satan and the mocking world against the church. An unholy church can never win over an unholy world. This is a harlot church! |
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This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
said:
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NikkiG Lee, I understand the courage one needs to speak up as you have done. I personally have been through a divorce and God has drawn me aside almost 4 yrs ago to "correct & discipline & teach". I am not guilty of adultery and yet I am - of the heart. One needs to understand the Spirit of the Word, not the letter. All quote the verse "only in fornication / adultery" but a closer study reveals as is written in Malachai 2, God HATES divorce. HE DOES NOT APPROVE. I read some of the other comments and sit amazed .... quoting the failures of the "icons" in the Bible. Study the consequences of David's act .... would any one choose such a judgement of God? Did Davids repentance change the consequences? He died a lonely man in spite of all his many wives. God forgave but the CONSEQUENCES REMAINED...... I've been told not to quote from the OT (Old Testament) yet the whole Bible is for our teaching, understanding and correction. The bottom line is that man wants what he wants and will walk the extra mile to find a "loop" whole in the Word to justify. God NEVER changes. He's instruction is to be faithful (even when it gets real tuff), to be committed (even when your being screams to run), to keep our promises (and these things only gets revealed when tested), to forgive as He has forgiven us, love that is long suffering, not wanting its own way, etc. Should this gentleman not have fled like Jospeh, seeing the attack on his marriage? My understanding of what God says is to seek reconciliation, forgiveness, restoration with the wife/husband He has given you and NOT a reason to get out of it. Yes, the leaders in the spot light has it a little harder to live by example but only because of the spot light but others like me have to live the talk too as many around us watch to see ...... God made it clear to me, that we drag His beautiful Name through the mud. Can anyone say God will stand for that. I will quote out of the OT - read Ezekiel 36. Once we repent (crying rivers of tears in remorse for our disobedience, seeking reconciliation, true repentance, admitting our wrongs to our partner and to our King, etc), that He will hear and heal our "land" not because we've repented but for His Name sake. These are strong words from our God. Where will the "world" turn to when they need Godly advise when the leaders and God's children are no different, a peculiar people? When God spoke to Moses about divorce, this is what He said "BECAUSE OF HARDEN HEARTS". Maybe read it again ... and again .... God can do nothing with a "harden heart". Remember Pharaoh? It is pride and God HATES pride. There is not enough space on this page to say all that needs to be said but I pray that God's Holy Spirit will convict and reveal what needs to be revealed. |
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remaword2
said:
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... I couldn't have commented better Lee. You keep speaking the truth in love. Wouldn't true repentance showed up in restoration of his marriage. Todd was determined to be with the other woman which he is, so what is he repented of. My question is I know man will see this as a marriage,but does God see it that way since it was concieved in adultery. My heart is broken over the example we are setting as God's grace. It just seems to me as mockery. |
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Bulgaricus
said:
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Bulgaricus As a non-charismatic missionary working in a Pentecostal Church in Eastern Europe I have seen this 1st hand. Grosss sin by church leaders is either ignored or covered up. This is a terrible weakness for the church here in this land. Often it is a case of US leaders of the denomination wanting both money & power from a "prized" minister here that has fallen into sin. Regardless of what they have done, they are allowed to continue in ministry, raise money & keep power. And we wonder why God will not bless? No repentence, no blessing... |
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beliefbeyond
said:
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... hi pastor777, i think you forgot Saul, Ananias and Saphira, its about the heart, grace to them that love the Lord. What made God reject Saul and accept David, they both sinned, their hearts were different. Whats the difference between Peter and Judas? Moses and Korah? Their true and humble love for God. |
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akoustix
said:
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Shedding some light on the subject... For those of you who have questions (and no doubt comments), check out this link to MorningStar's site where video updates on Todd will be regularly released. http://www.morningstarministri...tleys.aspx |
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slings and arrows, Lowly rated comment [Show]
Who among you is without sin!, Lowly rated comment [Show]
dfish
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Greasy Grace My eye was caught by the title and its similarity to "Greasy Grass" the Native American name for the place Custer died. Beyond that as the son of a Pastor and having see what the church generally does to those who fall I applaud the effort to restore Todd. There will never be enough punishment for anyone who does as he has done, but that is the truth of the grace we preach. Todd does not deserve restoration, but if God's grace is true then Todd must have it and parade it to the world. What would you rather have? Shall we make Todd a General Custer and and say (as the Indians do about Custer) he had it coming? One other thing, knowing something of Bill Johnson, I am confident that any restoration that he is involved in will have some teeth. |
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Jea1
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... Praise the Lord. I usually do not comment on your articles. I appreciate your magazine and the conviction it delivers. But I am compelled to comment on the article Greasy Grace. I agree with you Brother Grady. The Bible teaches that a brother that sins should be rebuked before all. I am amazed at how others have commented that it is judging when sin is called out. This explaines why there is no power among the people of God. Stimulating a crowd to shout and dance is not hard to do. But being full of the Holy Ghost so one can live a life of power over sin is different. This is what is lacking...the power of the Holy Ghost. And most of this is the fault of leaders. When the Word of God is compromised and not preached with power and conviction, sin will reign in the heart of the people. I admonish all preachers and five fold to read Ezekiel chapter 33. Drawing crowds is not what the church should be doing. Preaching the Word of God to the lost is what the church should be doing (Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (John 17:17). Then John 15:3 says "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you". Signs and wonders do not save. It takes the word of God to save. It takes the word of God to get clean. It takes the word of God to stay clean. The Florida revivals was a fire but not the fire of the Holy Ghost. Oh, amen! The Bible is right and somebody is wrong! No sin will enter into Heaven. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The Saints need to remember II Timothy 3:16,17. And yes, I know all have sin. Well, there is a remedy for sin, Jesus Christ of Nazareth! The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord - Romans 6:23. May you continue to let the Lord use you to write truth, uncompromised. I have learned that on the highway of Holiness, you do not find many travellers. Praise the Lord. |
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MomQ
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Christless Christians The NEW Testament is ignored. Read it, does it look anything like what we see happening? The leaders are leading the sheep to destruction and no one cares. As long as Christians pick and choose scripture to fit their lifestyles, they will continue to fall. It's clear what Jesus and Paul said about marriage but it doesn't fit the Hollywood lifestyle of the leaders and now the sheep. Paula and Randy White said their marriage was for a season, What??! Where's that in the NEW testament? And the sad thing is people accept it. We don't want our little worlds shaken so we go along blindly. I mentioned to a "friend" that Joyce Meyers had a $15,000 toilet and I got a tongue lashing from her. I was told that I would be cursed (as in the Old Testament curses) and my little dog too! She was after all an untouchable, read James 5, boy have we gotten off the track and the "leaders" really don't care. Sin has to be addressed and then forgiven, not ignored. We are heading down the wrong path, read the bible, don't let someone do it for you and then stand for what it says. Todd needs help, but as we say in the rehabilitation world, he needs real help, not what he thinks he needs, brutal honesty and maybe working for a living? Don't forget the family he used up and discarded, this needs to be addressed. |
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Jayebird
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I am appalled! and sent this to Morningstar Ministries To Rick Joyner, I am stunned that Todd Bentley is in the process of “being restored”. What about the devastation of his first wife and their children? Not one word in your article about his ex-wife, his family, nor that they tried counseling, or that they were being mentored by a pastoral couple or that they realized that their many years of conflict was a problem they needed to get help for; just Todd deciding on his own that “the marriage was over”. If the marriage was over, he should have gotten the divorce first, and then screwed his intern – Oh wait, that would have been sinful, too, because they weren’t married yet!!!!!! This is why the world looks at us Chrisitans and says, you’re no different than the rest of us – just holier than thou...’til you get caught! I am appalled that this troubled man and his original family have been torn apart – where was the restoration for that? There is NO WAY this man should be back in ministry. (Ask me again in 5 years, maybe). Where are your quotes of scripture that say, “God hates divorce.”? He doesn’t hate divorced people, but He hates the destruction and emotional fallout of divorce – especially for children, whose image of their heavenly Father is first seen and shaped by their experience with their earthly father. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be forgiven – but where is the church in preventing this and putting steps in place for mentoring and personal accountability? While God does not recall His gifts or His calling, He does require holiness of all of His children, especially those in leadership. If he was this “weak” in his personal life, he is in no position to lead others, NO MATTER WHAT HEALINGS, OR “MIRACLES” TOOK PLACE. God can use a rock to make a miracle – He doesn’t need to be blackmailed by His children to get his kingdom work done. This just makes EVERYTHING that happened at Lakeland suspect. The Enemy can counterfeit miracles, too. This is terrible logic and bad theology. And then there’s the place at the bottom to send contributions – you have GOT to be kidding! I am totally disappointed and disillusioned with your response. |
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JAird
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Understanding discipline As I have already stated love and justice go hand in hand. This is scriptural and practical. The problem begins when people, especially those who say don't judge, who are you to make that call and so on, distort scripture. Unfortunately there are those how are without love and just want to see God open up the ground to swallow the person in question. But we must remember love and justice. For love with out justice is chasing after the wind meaning it is unproductive and doesn't do anything. A pointless exercise. Justice without love is legalism as it would place unnecessary demands and make uncalled for judgments and this would be harmful as well as unproductive. Throughout the entirety of Scripture there are marked examples of love and justice in action. None more clearly seen than in the New Testament. Look at the teachings of Christ and that of the writings of the apostle Paul, John, and Peter. Clear and godly judgments have to be made otherwise we miss the genuineness of God's love when we are disciplined according to God's word. Please remember that the issue at hand is not only Todd and the foolishness of his decision making but the issue of remembering his ex-wife Shonnah and the children. Peace |
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contend4thef8th
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No comfort for Solange "Why in the presence of Jesus Christ not one picked up a stone, why if your eyes and your hands have offended you and me and caused you and me to sin why we can all still see to type, why Jesus said forgive 70x7, why Jesus said go tell the disciples and Peter, why we are so thankful for mercy for ourselves and yet cry out and beg for judgement for our brothers." Solange. ------- Like so many before you (today and future), you have a skewed view of scriptures. Much like a Pharisee would. I still can't believe Christians like you throw your version of scripture around at the expense of what God says about divorce and remarriage and obedience.. |
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KCIslander
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travesty This is such a travesty of grace! Bottomline, there is no restoration happening here. Mr. Bentley is doing what Mr. Bentley wants to do while these leaders sit by and do nothing. Where are the leaders? Where are the Elijahs, the Pauls and the voices of righteousness? This is why the church's membership is declining...we have no leaders. I'm sick and tired of seeing this stuff paraded as Christianity. Let's call this for what this is...a guy ran off with a younger woman leaving his wife and 3 kids. That's depiscable. |
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JAird
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Bad taste and Bad leadership Lee, Before you wrote this report I saw for myself the horrifying letter that Rock Joyner wrote. Now, I understand that RJ loves to help fallen ministers but where is his sense of ethic and moral? Where are the Biblical standards? Come on people, love and justice goes hand in hand! It disturbs me when I think that Todd Bentley can safely portray himself as the victim when he, himself, initiated the crime. It has been duly noted in various articles across the web that Todd had been involved with Jessa from the beginning of last year. I cannot stand and be silent when you so graphically portray recent events as Greasy Grace. Dietrich Bonhoeffer in his book the cost of discipleship, makes an excellent comparison between cheap and costly grace. And it seems to me that in this present situation that cheap grace has been manifested because the issue of sin has been excused and costly grace has not been exercised because no ministerial discipline has been exercised. When we cheapen the grace of God we make excuses for the sins we commit instead of taking responsibility for them. Why do I say that? Because, Todd is allowed to continue his ministry and not take the necessary time to abstain from it. His divorce and remarriage is an absolute farcical. By the way I want to thank you for pointing out that not once was Todd's wife, Shonnah or the children mentioned in RJ letter. NOT ONCE! I guess his wife and his children don't really matter in this situation. I mean look at the standard of Christianity being portrayed by the leaders, who support a "leader" who choose to divorce his wife which is not even on the Biblical grounds for divorce. Today is a sad day because yet again the world laughs and other mainstream religions will mock, yet again, this tarnish and embellishment that has stained the church of Jesus Christ. Oh yes, I would like to point out that in the letter Rick J. sent out, it says that Bill Johnson and Jack Deere that their involvement will be at a distance. I guess this could be open to interpretation. My heart and prayers go out to Shonnah and the children. As they are the ones who are in need of healing and just maybe if Todd thought about the lasting results that his actions have set in place. He will have to what is right for the sake of his children because he has portrayed to them a standard of Christianity, which Christ did not lay down for us, that could change their view on Christianity permanently. I pray this may never be so because I want his children to be surrounded by good brothers and sisters in Christ that will help them to understand that what their daddy did was absolutely and unequivocally wrong! His ministry will never be same again. |
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just wondering, Lowly rated comment [Show]
The Olu
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... Thanks Lee for the write up as many do not have the courage to tell the truth nowadays. Jesus did say, "By their fruits you shall know them." Why have we become so spineless when it comes to confronting sin? I am not saying condemn, but discipline. To me, this all looks suspect. He has done what he wanted (get married to someone else and chuck his wife). Why did he not submit to these ministers before he decided to leave his wife? Now, that would have been noble and would have shown genuine repentance. It is not rocket science to see why the divorce rate is up in the church. Like people like priest. If we as ministers of the gospel make excuses like this, we lose the moral authority to correct those we lead. What right do we now have to tell people to hang in there and make it work, when we don’t take the pain to work it out in our own marriages? We need to change! |
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Nicky
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Don't ever back down Lee It is true J. Lee - you are a rare voice in the Church today - you call lt like it is - And you nailed it this time too. I wish I could say I respect Mr Joyner but his statements and "overseer" posture seem very skeptical to me. What kind of restoration is happening here? None. Just the same old worldly New Age "forgiveness" which isn't forgiveness at all - it is accepting someone (Bentley) who says he is a believer In Jesus Christ but certainly doesn't follow His Master. Without hard discipline this guy will just keep deceiving gullible believers. |
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edrog
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Storefronts across America Sadly, every town in America is filled with storefront ministers who have gone down this same path. Bentley, as have the myriad before him, will next justify his situation and use scripture to support his justification. Many who want the same "forgiveness" will follow, not for the spiritual aspect but for the credence it gives for their own behavior. Many forget that many of the infamous TV evangelists so popular today have done just the same as Bentley but continue on as if nothing is wrong. |
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myvalon haney
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... this was an article well written. there is a lot of divorce in the church now. a person i know once said, "if you can't love your wife (or husband) how can you love God?" we have required no accountability in the church and excepted anything so how did we not expect it to come to this. when young ladies became pregnant out of wedlock we embraced them with open arm like it was cool. we are to be faulted because we have failed to preach purity and holiness. now people in ministry who have gotten divorced can go right on as tho its just a little blip on the screen of life. i often wonder how it will feel to stand before God on judgement day cc this issue. i have watched people in big ministires get divorced with absolutely no grounds and go right on with their ministry and with their large followings. what a message this sends to the body of Christ. many people will be led astray and probably fall away because of this. |
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preacherman0007
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Responsibility I have been in full gospel/pentecostal/charismatic circles most of my Christian life. But I must say that we have created a whole new set of ways to remove personal responsibility for sin. I am generally disturbed when I am asked to not make a Godly and righteous judgment, based on facts and fruit. I find it disturbing that when I as a minister can not make a judgment call. Yes I know 'he that is with out sin' but that is not a cart blanch for not using biblical methods of correction. If that were the case Matthew 18 would need to be removed. But what disturbs me is that we then say if I make a judgment I have a spirit of religion or some Pharisee spirit. personally I have not read anything about such nonsense. It is time for charismatics to take repsonsibility for what is so obvious and sinful. Todd bBentley has made poor choices, those who were afraid to challenge bad doctrine, bad life styles are also as guilty. We then blame those who have every right to judge and discern with a religious spirit. This is nothing more then manipulation to silence people who have concerns with spiritual tactics. harsh, I don't think so. My biggest fear is that this brohter will once again be elevated into charismatic fame, but if the sin of the heart is not dealt with, I fear for his soul. ALways remeber dear friends it's not the gift, but the character and the intergrity that matters. Scott A. |
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PV
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Ok, let's be THE BODY Amazing article and articulation from both sides. We all have our opinions. Our opinions won't win those who need ministry the most. Why not unite and be the true body of Christ? Shonnah and the children need love, support and encouragement. Who out there knows how to get in touch with them? Is there a special fund set up so that we, as Christ body, can make sure they have food, shelter, and spiritual support and counseling that they need? If we live out the Word by our actions, we will have more credibility when we give a reaction. |
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anthony
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... There is a trend to avoid any kind of judgement nowadays.This is not Biblical and consequently this article is a refreshing word...thankyou!! Mr Bentley has proved himself to not be a man of God and therefore disqualified from ministry.That is Biblical and that must be our starting point.Biblical!!!Certainly not the lax standards which prevail and which we judge this and other situations by.Talk about revival,we are setting the church up for a mighty judgement! Probably the best thing in the final analysis. |
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charlanakelly
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When will it end? I am truly sickened by what has happened at the hands of "leaders" in the body of Christ in recent years. I trust God will work out the issues of our hearts, but I have to question where is the fear of the Lord among our leaders. Solomon the wisest of all when asked by God Himself, "What do you want?," was humble and reverent enough to ask for a discerning heart to judge "this great people" of God's. Solomon knew well at that time the consequences of misjudging, mistreating, and misleading the people of God. He knew God would require the blood of His people on Solomon's hands if he handled them incorrectly. Today some of our "greatest" leaders don't seem to understand their responsibility to the sheep, and therefore they don't think they are accountable for their actions and how their actions ultimately affect the sheep. Every time I hear of another one falling, my heart cries out for the sheep. Those whose lives will be destroyed by the actions of someone they put their faith, hope, and trust in. The bottom line to this and more is our actions as ministers have the ability to send people to hell and we are remiss if we don't think we will be held accountable for every word and every action that scattered God's precious people. How many loving people have become skeptics as a result of the actions of men/women "of God." How many have left the church and will never cross the threshold again? The message of the Gospel is not easy. Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Jude further teaches us to make a distinction between those we should have compassion on and those we should snatch out of the fire. Remember who Jesus broke the whip out on? It wasn't the congregation! I am all for restoration, but who is bringing restoration to those who were scattered because of Todd Bentley's actions. I know the Holy Spirit will be able to reach some, but I dare say others will be lost as a result. Thanks Lee for being frank and honest. We all need a good slap across the face to wake us up. Hopefully we leaders in the body of Christ will come to our senses before it is too late. The grace of God was not given to enable us to continue in our sin, it was given to empower us to overcome it. |
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Frankie
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Where is the Fruit? I have a ministry and I have an issue in my life, a thorn in the flesh, if you will that the Lord has not delivered me from, and because of this, I have not been accepted nor have my gifts nor my call been accepted by many pastors and some lay people, and what I have to deal with in no way would be called a sin, but a matter of the flesh. God calls and annoints whom He chooses, not man. What God is looking for in our lives is fruit. Are we connected to the Vine? If not, then we are not His. His gifts and call are without repentance, and a man or woman can operate in them without the anointing, this is when we can become dangerous to ourselves, but more so to the Church. That is why we should ALWAYS have authority over us. What Todd Bently did was very wrong and he needs correction and a season of restoration. I agree with the Apostle Paul that he should be turned over to Satan for sifting because I believe the whole Word of God and I believe that it's for EVERYONE! Pastors, teachers, apostles, evangelists, and prophets should come under stronger correction if anything. I know of at least two pastors that have taken something that I have told them in confidence in their office and told someone outside of the office, that is a big NO, NO. Were they corrected? NO!! That is why I asked the question, where is the fruit in these men and women's lives? In my Ministry I teach the fruit of the Spirit as being basic to our spiritual growth, for without Love we are nothing! Todd should have restoration, but I don't know whether he should return to the kind of ministry that he had, only God knows the answer to that question! |
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To jks2009 , Lowly rated comment [Show]
contend4thef8th
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I Agree With You Much of what you said I have also said in my comments in the news section regarding Todd's sin. I was surprised at how many wanted to excuse it all away by quoting one set of scriptures against another. It was so like the Pharisee's. |
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Trudy
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Rev I truly appreciate Lee's comments. It makes me sick to my stomach to see Bently "married" again in such a short time without the discipline that is necessary for him. God Help Us to have discernment regarding messes like this |
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Kelllam
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... Thank you so much for your article. My family has suffered greatly because of greasy grace concerning my husband and our marriage situation. Some similar things took place. I sympathize with Shonnah and the children. In my experience, the church seems to wink at this kind of situation. My family certainly was not treated with love and the desire for restoration from "the church". I was upset to read about Bentley and Joyner's statement also because it seems to lack concern for the family and the devastation divorce causes. I do want to praise my God, however. He is our restorer, our rescuer. He is at work in my family and my husband. For me, this is an important subject. Sin, adultery, and divorce are not dealt with in the church the way it should be. Christians who really love each other should certainly do more to help families be whole and restored back to each other before divorce even happens... I have certainly have learned a lot and have grown closer to the Lord through my experience. I hope my husband and I can one day minister to others who are in this kind of painful situation. I pray for marraiges and families to be strengthened and restored, that means every person involved. |
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4 Truth
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Todd Bentley I'm sorry, but somehow I am skeptical of Todd's really deep commitment to being restored at this time. I know he has said he is sorry and so forth BUT he refused restoration process in the beginning in order to do just what HE wanted to do and that was: Divorce Shonnah and his children so he could marry this young thing that probably looks up to him as being the best thing since sliced bread. Very heady place to be put when his marriage was shakey at best! Cause his wife knew every kink in his armour... Nope! This man knows how to play the game and he has all too many fans in his fan club who would forgive him no matter what and think that his sin is nothing. What is on their leader's head will flow down to his follower's....and they will think nothing of following suit..."after all God forgave Todd and He will forgive me for doing the same thing."... I know that God is forgiving and if Todd was sincere in his admission of guilt and in his heart asked God for His forgiveness it was bestowed upon him because God is a forgiving God..But He also has rules that one MUST live by... I don't believe Todd should be put back into ministry for several years of proving his restoration... |
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Some of you folks do not hesitate to cast stones, Lowly rated comment [Show]
peter christian
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... Im appalled and all children of God should.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We should be ripping our cloth in repentance. SHAME on you rick joyner and all who support this distortion of biblical truth. No wonder the unbelievers look at us as a JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD SAID," BECAUSE OF YOU MY NAME IS MOCKED AMONG THE HEATHENS" |
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bradrherman
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... Great article Lee! I had several thoughts yesterday when I got the email from Rick Joyner. I wonder where the heck the accountability group was while Todd was getting remarried. It is almost like Todd said "I want to be restored, but first, before you hold me accountable, let me go get married, and then I am ready for discipline/direction." He wanted his cake and to eat it too. The other disturbing thing is that even though he isn't restored yet, they are already taking donations for Fresh Fire USA. What the heck is that about? That would be like taking donations for Jim Baker's future ministry even though he still has five years left in prison. But hey, he will be back in ministry at some point, so why not start now... Something is definitely wrong with this picture. I respect Rick Joyner, but I have some huge questions about this. |
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Blue
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THANKS FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH LEE Thanks for telling it like it is Lee!! The word "restoration" means to be brought back to former or original form. I have absolutely no respect for Joyner or Johnson, nor for the list of "prophets" who went down there salivating and prophecying all over Bentley last summer. Bentley should have been mentored and taught how to LOVE HIS WIFE, AND HIS CHILDREN, BE RESTORED TO YOUR WIFE, YOUR FORMER FAMILY!!! THAT'S TRUE RESTORATION!! He himself needs deliverance from alcoholism and adultery, and for debasing and defacing his own body!! YOU THINK LOVE IS EASY?? No, you think love is sex. That's all you lousy lying preachers who go off and leave your families think love is. And you leave your wife and kids. SHAME, SHAME ON YOU ALL!! WOE AND SHAME on the ministries who participate and do not stand up for the pure Word of God and say enough is enough!! Hypocrites! Liars! You will have no reward in heaven if you can't walk it out down here when the tough times come. You think marriage and family is easy? Oh it is for you now....no more taking care of wifey poo and kids...just rolling in the hay with the babe, and rolling in the money you foolish people gave him through those ATM's and offerings. WOE WOE to you! Repent!! Jesus said there would come a time when men would not endure sound doctine. The time is now!!!! FALL ON YOUR FACES AND REPENT BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD GETS POURED OUT. THESE ARE SERIOUS DAYS, AND I FOR ONE AM NOT GOING TO BACK DOWN ON SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THESE LIARS WHO COME TO YOU WITH SMOOTH TALKING WORDS TO CONVINCE YOU TO GIVE THEM MONEY, AND CONVINCE YOU TO LAY ASIDE ALL THE CONVICTIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOUR HEART. LET THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT GUIDE YOU PEOPLE READING THIS, AND TELL THESE PEOPLE TO GET OUT OF THE LIMELIGHT AND GO REPENT AND GO BACK AND BE RESTORED TO YOUR FAMILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Mali
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... What's just as sad, if not more so, is that Todd will continue to have a huge following of believers who will completely overlook his misdemeanors, because they hunger and thirst after the 'manifestations' (tongue in cheek) that are a part of his ministry, more than they hunger and thirst after righteousness. And they will be led into believing that the lifestyle he lives is endorsed by the Lord because those 'signs and wonders' continue. |
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LBKJ
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... Lee - You'rethe spine of the charismatic movement in many ways. Thank you for seeking to bring discipline to what is often a circus out there. |
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amworkaurora
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... You said it much better than I could, Grady. I am sick and tired of ministries allowing ministers like Bently play the victim. He is no victim, he is the perpetrator. Lets keep holding such ministries accountable - enough already - as if Jesus would ever knee anybody - we allow anything, if we think miracles and healing are taking place - wonder what spirit this is. How wonderful it would be if the one ministering the healing would simply fade away and let Jesus get the credit - like Jesus did. |
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amworkaurora
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... You said it much better than I could, Grady. I am sick and tired of ministries allowing ministers like Bently play the victim. He is no victim, he is the perpetrator. Lets keep holding such ministries accountable - enough already - as if Jesus would ever knee anybody - we allow anything, if we think miracles and healing are taking place - wonder what spirit this is. How wonderful it would be if the one ministering the healing would simply fade away and let Jesus get the credit - like Jesus did. |
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onepursuit
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... "Many Christians today have rejected biblical discipline and adopted a sweet, spineless love that cannot correct. Our grace is greasy. No matter what an offending brother does, we stroke him and pet him and nurse his wounds while we ignore the people he wounded. No matter how heinous his sin, we offer comforting platitudes because, after all, who are we to judge?" Thanks for this statement. There is a lot of truth in that... but I also think there's a double-standard at work. After all, the very same people who were so quick to forgive and gloss over Bentley's offenses were not nearly as graceful or loving towards those (like yourself) who dared to ask the tough questions. |
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