We need to be careful. Current fads involving angels, ecstatic worship and necromancy could push us off the edge of spiritual sanity.
No one fully understands what Nadab and Abihu did to prompt God to strike them dead in the sanctuary of Israel. The Bible says they loaded their firepans with incense, ignited the substance and "offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them" (Lev. 10:1, NASB). As a result of their careless and irreverent behavior, fire came from God's presence and consumed them.
Zap. In an instant they were ashes.
When Moses had to explain to Aaron what happened to the two men, he said: "It is what the Lord spoke, saying, ‘By those who come near to Me I will be treated as holy, and before all the people I will be honored'" (v. 3). Although we don't know the details of what Nadab and his brother did with the holy incense, we know they were careless and irreverent about the things of God.
| "We want the miracles of God, but we also want the fear and reverence of God. We cannot allow this strange fire to spread unchecked." |
This ancient story has relevant application for us today. We don't use incense or firepans in our worship, but we are expected to handle God's Word with care and minister to His people in the fear of the Lord. In other words: No funny business allowed. We aren't allowed to mix God's Word with foreign concepts or mix our worship with pagan practices.
Yet as I minister in various churches around this country I am finding that strange fire is spreading in our midst-even in churches that call themselves "Spirit-filled." Pastors and leaders need to be aware of these trends:
1. Deadly visitations. In some charismatic circles today, people are claiming to have spiritual experiences that involve communication with the dead. One Michigan pastor told me last week that some church leaders he knows promote this bizarre practice and base it on Jesus' experience on the Mount of Transfiguration. The logic is that since Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah on the day He was glorified, this gives us permission to talk to dead Christians and our dead relatives.
Although little is said about these experiences from the pulpit (since the average believer is not ready to handle this "new revelation"), people in some streams of the prophetic movement are claiming to have visitations from Aimee Semple McPherson, William Branham, John Wimber or various Bible characters. And we are expected to say, "Ooooooo, that's so deep"-and then go looking for our own mystical, beyond-the-grave epiphany.
That is creepy. Communication with the dead was strictly forbidden in the Old Testament (see Deut. 18:11), and there is nothing in the New that indicates the rules were changed. Those who seek counsel from the dead-whether through mediums and séances or in "prophetic visions"-are taking a dangerous step toward demonization.
2. Ecstatic rapture. Not long after ecstasy became known as a recreational drug, someone in our movement got the bright idea to promote spiritual ecstasy as a form of legitimate worship. The concept evolved from "spiritual drunkenness" to the current fad in which people gather at church altars and pretend to shoot needles in their arms for a "spiritual high." Some preachers today are encouraging people to "toke the Holy Ghost"-a reference to smoking marijuana.
I hate to be a party pooper, but the Bible warns us to "be of sound judgment and sober spirit" (1 Pet. 4:7). There is plenty of freedom and joy in the Holy Spirit; we don't have to quench it by introducing people to pagan revelry. Christian worship is not about losing control. Those who worship Jesus do it "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), and our love for God is not measured by how violently we shake or how many times we fall on the floor.
Recently I told a friend in Pennsylvania that when people get tired of this drug imagery it won't be long before we see some Christians having sexual experiences at the altar. "It's already happening," my friend said. He described a recent "worship concert" in which one of the musicians simulated sex while stroking a microphone and whispering sensual phrases to Jesus. What is next-orgasmic worship? God help us.
3. Angels among us. Angels have always played a vital role in the life of the church. They are "ministering spirits" sent to protect, guide and strengthen believers (Heb. 1:14). But suddenly angels have become the rage in some segments of our movement. People are claiming to see them everywhere, and often the stories don't line up with the Word of God.
During the Lakeland Revival last year in Florida, a man from Germany took the stage and claimed that an angel walked into a restaurant while he was eating a hamburger, took his intestines out and replaced them with a gold substance. Others have testified that angels took them to heaven and operated on them. And many are claiming that angels are dropping feathers, gold dust and precious gems on worshippers.
I know God can do anything. He can make an iron axe head float, hide a coin in a fish's mouth and use a little boy's lunch to feed a multitude. Those were genuine miracles that He can still do today. But we still have to use caution here. There are counterfeits. If we promote a false miracle or a false angel in the Lord's house, we are participating in strange fire.
I know of a case where a man was caught planting fake jewels on the floor of a church. He told his friends he was "seeding the room" to lift the people's faith. I know of others who have been caught putting gold glitter on themselves in a restroom and then running back in a church service, only to claim that God was blessing them with this special favor. Where is the fear of God when Christians would actually fabricate a miracle?
This is a time for all true believers with backbones to draw clear lines between what is godly worship and what is pagan practice. We want the miracles of God, but we also want the fear and reverence of God. We cannot allow this strange fire to spread unchecked.
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma. He will be ministering from Feb. 17-27 in England. If this article was forwarded to you, we encourage you to sign up to receive "Fire in My Bones" weekly in your own mailbox. Click here.
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jamadan
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... Ever notice how there are tons of claims of gems and gold dust being miraculously provided by God, but not a single story anywhere of the people selling them to provide for the poor? I mean, a few jewels worth $10,000 each, as some have asserted, could make quite a difference in the lives of those who are hungry. And gold is selling very high right now. They claim God is doing it to bless and provide for the church, but they aren't following through . . . or more likely, they're afraid to knowing full well they are fake. Challenge to all those who claim to have jewels manifest in their meetings: bring in an independent witness (like Charisma) to your next meeting and turn over any and all jewels that manifest and have them examined by an independent jeweler for appraisal. That wouldn't necessarily convince me they're from God, but at least I'd know whether or not they're from Walmart. |
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wthrockmorton
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Name names Mr. Grady - I think you should name the names of the people who sprinkled jewels and applied gold glitter in a bathroom. How will people know who to avoid otherwise? I have seen pictures of Joshua Mills covered in glitter. Is he the person you are referring to? It looked incredibly fake. Thanks for a great article, now please take it a little further.... Warren Throckmorton www.wthrockmorton.com |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... The real problem is NOT whether or not God CAN do all of these things. But rather whether or not God blesses people in rebellion, unbelief, idolatry, selfishness, who are greedy, self-centered and full of hyocrisy. How many "christians" today worship at the professional sports altar? How many are so busy with their own plans they do not have time to spend an hour with the Lord? How many come to church expecting to be led INTO an attitude of worship? How many walk in sin expecting God to wink at those sins, especially when they sing "worship" songs? God did NOT accept the worship of Israel when they walked in these sins and He has NOT CHANGED! God does NOT accept 2nd class worship, or anything at all that is NOT whole-hearted. Just as God spoke through Samuel to King Saul that HE does NOT accept sacrifices from those who are NOT OBEDIENT which is far more important to God, so today, He does NOT accept worship from those whose hearts are not 100% His! This is not anything new, it is all through the Old Testament and we are told similar things in the New Testament; Ananais and Sapphira being one of them! Talk about "Strange Fire"!!!!!! And yet we ignore these warnings and continue on thinking God accepts us because we prayed some prayer saying we made Jesus our Lord, but of course we don't act like it, we live our lives like we want and go to church several times a week just to prove to everyone (ourselves included) that we are truly christians. How foolish. We think that Jesus changed God's requirements so that we can do what we want, act like heathen and still be accepted in the beloved. Anyone who thinks that is very deceived! The Bible tells us that Jesus is the author of salvation to THOSE WHO OBEY HIM!!! Jesus Himself said>>>>> Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands]. [Ps. 6:8.] at 7:24 So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock. Mat 7:25 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. Mat 7:26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them will be like a stupid (foolish) man who built his house upon the sand. Mat 7:27 And the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell--and great and complete was the fall of it. NOTICE>>>> Those people thought they had been doing the work of God, BUT THE LORD DID NOT EVEN KNOW THEM! They were DECEIVED thinking they were the people of God. Many people who live today are also deceived in the same way! And then we wonder why God has not chaged our lives or our cities when we have been having all of those prayer meetings. Have any of those cities gotten any better where there has been 24/7 prayer? Don't count on it! What does James tell us about prayer? Jas 4:2 You are jealous and covet [what others have] and your desires go unfulfilled; [so] you become murderers. [To hate is to murder as far as your hearts are concerned.] You burn with envy and anger and are not able to obtain [the gratification, the contentment, and the happiness that you seek], so you fight and war. You do not have, because you do not ask. [I John 3:15.] Jas 4:3 [Or] you do ask [God for them] and yet fail to receive, because you ask with wrong purpose and evil, selfish motives. Your intention is [when you get what you desire] to spend it in sensual pleasures. Jas 4:4 You [are like] unfaithful wives [having illicit love affairs with the world and breaking your marriage vow to God]! Do you not know that being the world's friend is being God's enemy? So whoever chooses to be a friend of the world takes his stand as an enemy of God. Jas 4:5 Or do you suppose that the Scripture is speaking to no purpose that says, The Spirit Whom He has caused to dwell in us yearns over us and He yearns for the Spirit [to be welcome] with a jealous love? [Jer. 3:14; Hos. 2:19ff.] Jas 4:6 But He gives us more and more grace (power of the Holy Spirit, to meet this evil tendency and all others fully). That is why He says, God sets Himself against the proud and haughty, but gives grace [continually] to the lowly (those who are humble enough to receive it). [Prov. 3:34.] Do we believe this or not? Perhaps James has told us what "Strange Fire" is! If our hearts have not changed, then nothing we do is accepted. a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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AnnaH
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to Rick OK Rick, and others ,let's put it differently..WHY would the Jesus of scripture "bless" anyone in hysterical meetings with gold dust riches etc. when He never came with a message about materialism ? (or maybe I missed something?) I agree and Praise The Lord that God can i.e. fill a car with petrol in an emergency of dire need in answer to a believers fervent prayer..but this is an entirely different matter.. |
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LilMizMargi
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KUDOS RICK! KUDOS RICK! Fake manifestations are a no-no. But I sure LOVE the real deal holy ghost manifestations that let people (esp non-believers) know God is still God, the God of power and might, as well as the God of grace and salvation. We need the indwelling presence of Holy Spirit to live the Christian Life - to bear fruit and to flow in gifts. BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY - not either without the other! Blessings! |
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Rick
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The God of Signs and Wonders Sticks turning into snakes, the leperosy hand trick, gold coins appearing in fish mouth, oil magically appearing for the poor widow, floating iron axe heads, angel cakes, water into wine, quail appearing out of nowhere, glowing in the dark faces, walking on water, tree instantly dying, dead almond branch budding instantly, fire on the tree, fire on the head, fire on the sacrifice, fire about everywhere, invisible angels stirring water to heal people, talking donkeys, God never runs out of signs and miracles. I have absolutely no problem with gold dust, feathers, gold teeth, oil, tongues of flame, glory clouds, the multiplying of the spaghetti, car miraculously fixed, playing the piano without lessons, speaking perfect german with no lessons and the list goes on. The signs and wonders and miracles that God does are unlimited and are not constrained by their need to appear in the Bible first. Are you saying that you don’t believe God can sprinkle gold dust or make a gem appear because you don’t find it in the Bible? Does that mean if Patricia King were waving around sticks and turning them into snakes you would believe? Or if Bill Johnson claimed that gold coins were appearing in fish mouths that suddenly it would be valid? I didn’t think so. Here’s what you need to understand. Jesus was performing thousands of signs and wonders, 99% of which we’re NEVER RECORDED. Yet, in that environment, even while they were witnessing miracles, the Pharisees and Sadducees asked for a sign! Why? God gave Moses two attesting miracles to establish his credibility with the Jews. First was the stick turning into a snake. And for those on this blog who are so worried about new age miracles, nothing’s more demonic or new age than a snake! Wierd miracle huh? The second was, “see my hand? Perfect huh. Now watch, behind my vest...and now out...it’s leperous! And now, behind the vest again, and out...Perfect! Voila! Believe me now?” Sounds to me like a cheap magic trick. Those were called “attesting” signs and miracles and since that was how God established Moses authority, attesting signs are what the Jews wanted to see before following Jesus. Here is the Pharisee’s demand: Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? Here is Jesus response: Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Mark 8:12 He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." What did Jesus mean? Thousands of signs were given to this generation. The Pharisees were complaining that Jesus miracles were NOT SCRIPTURAL! How could they be, He healed on the sabbath. That’s work. He touched dead people. He touched women. They failed to see His heart. They accused Jesus miracles of being inspired of the Devil. Sound familiar? Where did we get these folk sayings like “seek the giver, not the gift?” Paul repeatedly says to covet earnestly (really seek hard) spiritual gifts. There is nothing wrong asking for signs and wonders from the Father. Please. The early church prayed for an abundance of signs and wonders. The people that say, “just seek Jesus”, not signs, or “just focus on the cross not the signs and miracles” are mis-led. Because, it’s a PACKAGE DEAL! God is miraculous, these signs WILL follow them that believe. If they don’t, then begin to wonder why. The early church prayed; “Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus." Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will 2 Corinthians 12:12 The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance Romans 15:19 by the power of signs and miracles, through the power of the Spirit. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ Acts 15:12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. Acts 14:3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders. Acts 8:6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. Acts 5:12 The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Colonnade. |
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Handmaiden of the Lord
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... "Those who seek counsel from the dead-whether through mediums and séances or in "prophetic visions"-are taking a dangerous step toward demonization." True. We cannot take lightly the reverntial fear of the Lord which brings wisdom. When Jesus was transfigured with Moses and Elijah it was a specific purpose that God had in mind. |
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Jay
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Signs are supposed to follow the Believer, not vice versa Mark 16:17 tells us that signs (miracles, etc) are to follow the believer, that they are a demonstration of the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian. Believers are anointed preach and also to walk in the anointing that Jesus did that brought forth signs and deliverance and healing and freedom - see Luke 4:18-19 (from Is 61) Paul taught in 1 Cor 11:19 that there would be divisions and factions and heresies, and he brought teaching to focus the believer on the Lord Jesus, and not on the signs, Many years ago in the Charismatic movement the same thing happened, people would go all over the globe to get it on the latest wonder and experience in the Lord. The same thing is happening today, and let's face it, it is exciting to see and experience these miraculous things that happen. Is there excess, there sure is. Is there deception and false teaching - yes, there is. Are there some authentic moves of the Holy Spirit - absolutely!!! Let's be careful not to put God in a box and say there is only one way He will move. If a person does that, they can not only sectarian, but they can be plan wrong. There are people who claim to be "right" and they bash all the extreme happenings of the Lord and call them things of the devil etc. These critics can be just as extreme as the ones they are saying are wrong - we all need to keep our perspective, we all need to be founded and grounded in the Word. Yet, we all need to be open to the miracle and wonder of the Lord. It is obvious that the Lord does many things and does them in many ways - but He is consistent and as long as a person is following Him they can flow with things. It is interesting that we can all find examples of "right" and "wrong" things regarding all these miracles and extreme experiences. The point here is to keep that proper perspective and stay focused on the Lord. In Ecclesiastes we learn that there is nothing new under the sun, so it is not surprising that we will see these things happen - there have for hundreds of years. So - what is the point? The point is to keep focused on the Lord and to look to Him as our primary source and motivation. He is the reason for living, He is the way, the truth, and the life. Ps 103:7 He made known His ways to Moses, His acts to the children of Israel. In this verse in Psalms is a good lesson. It states that the people of Israel, the masses, say acts - this word speaks of the miracles, the exploits, the big splashy happenings. And this also teaches that Moses knew the ways of God - he was in relationship and walked with God. Following Jesus is more than the miracles and the acts, it is about relationship and becoming one with Him, about letting Him move in your life and ultimately becoming more and more like Him. When Jesus walked on the earth the masses of people were attracted by His miracles and signs, but as He started to teach leaving all and following Him, and He started getting past the outward signs, and started dealing with attitudes and spoke to people about dying to self. Well, when He did this people started to drop off and only a few followed Him, and ultimately all abandoned Him. But thank God that He did not leave us alone, but He sent the Holy Spirit to live in us and to help us and to teach us, and to lead us into a deeper and more intimate relationship with Jesus. Let's see things in God's perspective and start following Jesus with a renewed passion as He works His will and His way in our lives. Let's be followers of Jesus, not followers of the signs. |
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tomwinfield77
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The Lord's Servants: Under Siege by False Fire This blog sparks questions--1)Do Charismatics-Pentecostals-Prophetics not know the tactics of Satan? 2)Do they not know that Satan is alive and well and working among them to discredit them? 3)Do they not know that Satan is working among them to divide them and make them appear crazy to the unsaved? I think not... The confusion in the comments on this blog concerns the Todd Bentley episode, but brings in Patricia King, Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, John and Carol Arnott, Heidi Baker and others as well--applying Matthew 7:21 to them as false prophets whom Jesus will reject on That Day. Saying these people are servants of Self or Satan or perhaps Stupidity. It is time for Charismatics to focus again on Satan and his tactics by revealing them in Scripture. How Satan wars against God's servants to lead them astray with whisperings, words of knowledge, the prophetic, demons posing as angels and speaking to them, and yes, with a hot, fake sense of God's presence, which so many think vindicates and verifies what they believe about God and what He wants them to do. In other words, these servants are under siege by False Fire. The resulting chaos results in loss of confidence in our leaders, who indeed seem captivated more with gold dust, angel feathers, heavenly smells and wild services. A love of the Reality of God marks a Christian and is a fruit of the Spirit; a love of Jesus; a love of God's righteousness; a love of the Truth that He gives in the Bible; a deep desire to lead others to God through Jesus. Not a love of signs and wonders. When the False Prophet comes to herald the Antichrist, Paul says he will perform such great signs and wonders--calling down fire from the sky--that the whole world will run after him. You wonder, how many Charismatics will be duped? Fire from the sky is tremendously impressive. The confusion on this blog reaches its climax in the controversy over Matthew 7:21. Obviously, those writing--except for one or two--have not carefully read that verse, nor have they read it in context with what Jesus was saying overall, which was to warn about false prophets to come. Verses 21-23 climaxe the subject, with false prophets coming to Jesus on That Day, and at that time calling Him "Lord, Lord", only to hear Jesus rebuke them by saying He never knew them, which means they never knew Him either, and saying "Away from me, you workers of iniquity." Now those servants of Jesus maligned on this blog--yes, even the deceived Todd Bentley--have not been shown to be wicked false prophets just out for themselves. They are not men and women who never knew Jesus, nor was never known by Him. But instead, many of us know them to love the Lord. We know they want to build up the Charismatic-Pentecostal-Prophetic segments of the Body of Christ. Thought it does seem they have gone over to signs and wonders, and are captivated by them. Think about this: Paul says those who build on the Foundation, which is Jesus Christ, with hay and stubble will see their work burned by the Fire of That Day, but the servants themselves will be saved, as through fire. I know the hearts of Bill Johnson, John and Carol Arnott and Rick Joyner, and even Todd Bentley, and I can testify that these servants have a great heart for the Lord. Deceived? Prophesying stupidly about Bentley? Oh my yes... But are they wicked false prophets who do signs and wonders in the name of Jesus for their own gain, or to serve the Prince of Darkness? No, definitely not. That is absurd to those who know them. Are their ministries totally discredited? They may be if they persist after gold dust, angel feathers and the like. Comments on this blog tell me that we are in great need of teaching by someone who has personally had to deal with False Manifestations as well as the Real. The bottom line problem seems to be recognizing the difference between them. My other impression is that those quick to blog their spiritual opinions DO NOT KNOW SCRIPTURE VERY WELL. You have to know ALL OF IT to make right spiritual judgments. As for strange signs and wonders, I expect to see more of them as we go along. We are in dire need of the Spirit's gift of discerning of spirits. I seldom see that gift at work on this blog. But to accept all signs and wonders, saying "let God do what He wants," is to give Satan carte blanch. So many are just not willing to test the spirits behind manifestations, to put them to the proof. Why? Because they love these signs and do not want to lose them. They think they will be throwing away some wonderful aspect of God. But in the days to come, false signs will be given more and more. Why? To further captivate us, to further divide us, to make us appear even more crazy to the rest of the Body of Christ and to unbelievers. On street corners will stand a new church--the First Church of Angel Feathers, Gold Dust and Heavenly Smells. |
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Barbara
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Bible Evidence There is absolutely no Biblical evidence for the so-called gold dust, nor gemstones falling out of portals from heaven, nor oil dripping out of pierced hands...stigmatas, nor fealthers floating around in the air from heaven. What a farce...a hole in heaven and God is throwing this trash down at you! The people who claim this all run in the same vein and run from conference to conference teaching and bringing their trash from state to state. If they can convince you to come to their conference just in case you might see a feather floating from the ceiling or something distracting from the Word of God, then they gottcha, and your little offerings add up to pay their salaries from all their traveling from conference to conference. Where are the miracles the apostles performed? The lame man walking? The blind restored to full eyeballs and so forth? You will find the same false "signs" among the same groups of people, and mostly in the ICA. John Crowder is the biggest farce and blasphemous ministry in their drunkenglory conferences I have ever seen...but only online! I would fear for my very eternal soul if I was putting on the acts the way those guys are! Another gimmic!! We will stand before Almighty God and give an account of our deeds. You better make sure you are not one of those who He says depart from me, because I never knew you, despite the so-called prophecies and casting out of devils in HIS name. Where is the fear of God? Off to another conference to make money. The real signs and wonders are found in the children coming out of Egypt. I can go to Walmart and buy glitter to put in the A/C vents of my church. I would say to people to be careful, and stay in your local churches. Talk to your pastors about these people coming to conferences in your city, and discuss these things with your elders and pastors. Stop the nonsense. Get serious with God and seek His face, not His hand! Stop supporting these itinerant thieves who come to rob you of your money and work you up into an emotional frenzy and then say you have been with God. Did the prophecy come true? Did the healing last? Did the women dress modestly or with tight-fitting/revealing clothing? Were the men pure and not lustful? Hey...I have a relative in the resort business. You would not even believe the people who watch the sex shows on their TV's in their room, and then pay the bill thinking that no one knows what they were doing. Porn addicts in the church. Ha...look around...YOU thought you could trust someone like TED HAGGARD! Who do you REALLY trust now??? No one. Don't trust these people. Go to your pastor and talk to him and pray with him, and pay your money to the church, not these charlatans who take away the tithes and offerrings due to your home church or congregation!! Thieves is what they are...Christian thieves. Stealing your peace, your money, your time away from home or church or family to attend their meetings. I know people in many big ministries. I hear about how much money is to be made in these conferences. It would blow your mind. Any gimmic or advertisement they can use to draw you in....well...you are a fool if you go. You are the one with the mustard on his face. |
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Rick
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... My point is that according to scripture though they call Jesus Lord they have never been born again. Never. He says He NEVER knew them. Is your point that you happen to know that Patricia King, Heidi Baker, etc. have never been born again though they call Jesus Lord? Antichrist people do miracles, sometimes in Jesus name, but have never known Him, are not born again and love to practice sin. Just because someone does a miracle using the name of Jesus does not mean they are a Christian. I would never ever say that. You don’t judge Christians by whether or not there are miracles or signs in their lives. You judge by the fruit in their lives. Is there the initial witness of repentance and faith towards God. Do they Love Jesus. Are they witnessing to others, leading people to a saving knowledge of Jesus, reading the Bible, helping the poor, are they kind, do they have a profession of faith? Or conversely do they constantly make a practice of fornication, lying, hating and blasphemy. In other words, signs and wonders tell us nothing about the spiritual state of someone. The children in Heidi Baker’s orphanage experienced gold dust. Does that mean they are anti-christ? No. Does that mean they are Christians? No. The question is, are they born again, do they show fruit. A sign is only a miracle. God can do any miracle he wants to do. He can miraculously fix a car engine. Just because he never did it in the Gospels doesn’t mean He can’t do it today. Just because we see an Angel doesn’t mean we are a Christian and doesn’t mean that that Angel is even from God. Paul says, “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” If that Angel preaches something other than depending on Jesus, the only son of God, incarnate in human flesh, to forgive you of all sin and make you righteous before the Father, then reject it. So what was your point? |
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arlene
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Matthew 7:21 Jamaden -- you are correct in your interpretation of Matthew 7:21. In that scripture, where Jesus says "I never knew you," the "knew" means that those in that day who say "Lord, Lord....." did not "know" him relationally -- were not connected -- were not intimate with Him and couldn't possibly be if they were continuing to "practice" -- as in a continuous pattern/a lifestyle of lawlessness. Lawlessness is defined in 1John 3:4 as sin and verse 6 goes on to say "Whoever abides (remains, dwells) in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor "known" Him." He breaks it down further in verse 8 saying "He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning....and verse 9 "Whoever hs been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin because he has been born of God." (Cannot practice sin as a way of life, because his desire is to change.) Cannot practice since because there is conviction that comes when we have grieved the Father. -- I could go on and on but I invite my brothers and sisters to continue reading the rest of 1John chapters 3 and 4. 2Timothy 2:15 says "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth." That must mean that we must use cauton not to "wrongly divide" the word of truth. Word to the wise: don't rely on man to teach what the Holy Spirit does best. He is our teacher, our comforter, our advocate. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring in your remembrance all things that I said to you." John 14:26 Let's also use caution not to bite or tear each other. If we are to teach each other we do it in gentleness and humility. For this reason, the "world" resists the truth which the believers in Christ Jesus are commanded to share. The "church" can't get along long enough to get with the program and do what we are ultimately here to do -- GO.....save souls. All glory and honor and praise be unto Him who loves us with an everlasting love! Be blessed... |
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jamadan
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... Rick, Again these are people who call Jesus "Lord, Lord". You aren't seeing what's right in front of your eyes. Yes, the anti-Christ is vicious. No, Matthew 7:21 is not talking about him. It's talking about people who call Jesus "Lord" and who do miracles in His Name! Those who go around casting out demons and doing signs and wonders in the Name of Jesus. This is not the anti-Christ here, these are people who claim to be Christians. Stop and address that because it seems to be the main point you aren't acknowledging. There's just no other way to interpret 7:21. |
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Rick
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... So, you are consigning Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner and I am imagine a host of others to Hell as false prophets to burn in the lake of fire forever? And don’t forget me, I experienced gold dust after worshipping the Lord for 2 hours one time. It says Jesus NEVER knew those who practice iniquity or practice lawlessness or as Amplified puts it, “act wickedly”. They were not born again. Never. They PRACTICE iniquity....it’s something they do day in, day out as in a Medical practice or a Legal practice. At the Great White Throne judgement, they may point to a miracle they performed using the name of Jesus but as Jesus says, I NEVER knew you. That means Never in their entire lives. That’s why Paul says in Thessolonians, “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” Read the entirew chapter of Matthew 7. It begins with a warning against judging others. Patricia King has been happily married for over 30 years, has led thousands to Jesus, worked as a missionary in Mexico for 5 years and loves Jesus passionately. And why would you put Heidi in a different category? Bill Johnson is on their board of directors, they speak frequently at Toronto, Patricia King’s ministry officially supports and funds Heidi and Roland. Here’s what Heidi says in her 2006 newsletter: “We have been content with our lack, but God has chosen to bless us with so much material comfort. A few weeks ago when we were praying, the children saw gold dust on their hands; some found oil.“ And speaking of fruit and the Cross here’s what she says “ “What an amazing year. Our hearts are full of gratitude to the Lord for allowing us to participate with Him in this revival in Mozambique. Thank you for all your love and support. God has been faithful to us, and He has surely used you! Around twelve thousand people are fed each day and five thousand children are being cared for in Iris Ministries. Thank you for remembering the poor. Lately, I have been thinking about what is most important in ministry. Intimacy with God is always my greatest priority. I have given Him my mornings. What a delight to minister out of fullness. As long as I spend time in the secret place, I am able to get through any trial. My heart is longing to be more like Jesus, who emptied Himself out for us. These words from Luke 9:23 have touched me deeply, "If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." As we pour our lives out for the poor we find treasures in the people He gives us to love. I feel like one of the richest women on the planet as Jesus brings us new children to care for each week.” As far as I know Bob Jones fell into sin in the 90s, confessed it publicly, repented and was restored. Paul Cain has not repented as far as I know. These are Christians who have fallen, not people who Jesus NEVER knew. If you want to read about false signs and miracles, read the rest of the scriptures I cited. These are not nice people. They are vicious, Jesus hating anti-Christ people with demonic signs. |
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jamadan
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... Your interpretation of Scripture, Rick, misses the mark. Those who practice lawlessness are not those who reject salvation. Let's focus on Matthew 7:21, " Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." So obviously these are people who believed themselves to be saved and serving Jesus even performing wonders and casting out demons in the Name of Jesus. There's just no other way to interpret that. So how can they think they are saved and serving Jesus when in fact they are practicing lawlessness and are told to depart from Jesus having never known him? It's not that they reject salvation. It's because even though they embrace the Lord, they continue to follow and obey a way that violates God's law and are this lawless. This is what's happening with this modern signs movement. These are people seeking after silly signs instead of the Cross. This is what Todd Bentley, Patricia King, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner and others are all about in this hour. I'd put Heidi and Roland Baker in a very different class from the rest - I respect them and think they just aren't aware of what these other clowns are doing. I think the blessing they received at Toronto was legitimate and they remain sympathetic to those they are in relationship with, but quite frankly, John Arnott jumped off track when he rejected John Wimber's command to repent from the bizarre manifestations that had started to increase at that time. And in addition to rebelling from his God ordained authority, Arnott compounded his sin and rebellion by adding Wimber's endorsement to his Arnott's new book over Wimber's expressed instructions not to. I believe that was a major turning point of releasing the demons responsible for many of these bizarre manifestations. Those I've talked to who visited TACF prior to the Wimber incident and after report dramatic differences in what was happening there. Prior to that, they felt refreshed and touched by the Lord. After that, every single one reported that they felt spiritually violated and felt like something really horrible was happening up there now. Around the same time, the Kansas City prophets movement was also getting far off the rails as the sins of it's leaders were leading them further and further into demonic territory. Their most revered prophet, Paul Cain, engaged in years of homosexual sin and alcoholism and their other main prophet, Bob Jones, undressing women and worse in the name of prophecy . . . all that bad fruit is called lawlessness my friend. Declaring Jesus to the crowds and showing signs and wonders, all the while engaged in abominations and rebellion behind closed doors. That is exactly what Todd Bentley did in Lakeland - even as Arnott and others were laying on hands and blessing and extolling his virtue and future, Todd was engaged in pathological lying, an adulterous affair, and public drunkeness. This is exactly what Jesus warned us about. They are practicing lawlessness and we who have discernment have been right in pointing out that the spirit in which they are operatingi s not the Holy Spirit and the fruit of their lives bears that out. Please re-read Matthew 7:21 in light of these ministries and see that they are exactly what the Lord warned us about. |
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Rick
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GET IT IN CONTEXT You know what really bugs me is when Christians take scripture out of context and use it to club othger Christians. Jesus’ warnings are about the end times rise of the Antichrist. The one who hates Jesus. The one who claims that he is the Christ, not Jesus. It’s the worst lie on the face of the planet and the devil likes it so he imitates miracles to validate this Anti-Christ. They are called “False Christs”. The false prophets claim that Christ has returned and he is hiding out in the desert. Paul calls the Anti-Christ the lawless one. He says that his followers refuse salvation! They refuse to be saved! The key is, do you know Jesus, are you saved. They love to sin and Jesus calls them “workers of iniquity”. Those are the ones Jesus says, I never knew you. Don’t try to beat up Christians who love Jesus and love the word of God with these scriptures. Heidi Baker led a fairly uneventful life as a traditional evangelical missionary with disappointing results until going to Toronto, the church where a lot of these signs first began happening. She fell into a trance of sorts at the altar (a very Biblical term...Peter fell into a trance, Paul fell into a trance) and lying immobile for days. Afterwards, she and her husband were called to Mozambique, the poorest country on earth. the first thing they did was establish an orphanage and love discarded babies back to life. The began going out into the villages showing Campus Crusade’s Jesus film on a sheet tacked to mud huts. They prayed with people eventually leading several hundred thousand Africans to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Over 10 years, this on fire couple launched over 8,000 churches. So, lets reject heresy and immorality, but please stop wrangling over semantics or things that are simply different than what we are used to. And let’s examine the fruit, which in the case of Patricia King, Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker and others is gloriously abundant. Let’s get our scriptures in context and quit attacking our brother and sisters. Matt. 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. Matt. 24:15: So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 2 Thesselonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity |
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jamadan
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Wrong Rick . . . If it's fake, then it's of the flesh. If it's a real supernatural thing, then it could be of God or the devil since he is capable also of miracles. We then have to judge the fruit to determine the source, for as Jesus warned, many will come proclaiming that Jesus is Lord and doing miracles in the name of Jesus yet are false apostles leading many to Hell. Gold teeth and angel feathers have that kind of frivolous feel to them - pointless other than to validate a bunch of people seeking signs, something Jesus warned not to do. Perhaps if you were better aquainted with Scripture, such simple lessons in discernment wouldn't be necessary. |
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Rick
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... Ahhh...I'm beginning to get it now. If it's fake it's of the devil and if it's real it's of the devil. We got a real big "of the devil box". I remember in the 1970s I had known the Lord for about a year and I brought home an Andrae Crouch and the Disciples record (large licorice pizzas for those that don't remember). My Father said it was of the devil because that "Jungle rhythm" of rock and roll beat. And then a few months later when I tried to talk to him about the baptism of the Holy Spirit my Conservative Baptist cessationist Dad told me tongues were of the devil. I have to laugh because today he lifts his hands in church to the much wilder rock and roll beat of contemporary worship and speaks in tongues. Jesus was of the devil according to the religious experts because He healed people on the sabbath which clearly broke scripture. I've never had God give me a gold filing, don't know anyone that has. But if God wants to do that, who am I to say He can't. Let's leave "of the devil" to stuff that is clearly of the devil. Like worshipping angels, denying the incarnation, saying the second coming has already happened, worshipping a false messiah, fornicating, eating food sacrificed to idols, hating your brother and such. |
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jamadan
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Disappearing gold teeth . . . Funny thing about the gold teeth my Mom got when she visited Toronto, a few months later when she went to the dentist, they were just the regular fillings she had before. Note sure whether it never happened and it was just the hypnotical power of suggestion that made her and everyone she told think they were gold or whether it was some demonic counterfeit, but facts are facts. Honestly, I looked at them and couldn't see gold, just a shiny metal. I have yet to hear or read any reports from dentists validating real gold teeth that they didn't put in - though I have read a number of reports of folks going to dentists only to be disppointed in what they learn. If God did it, I'd have thought he would have healed the tooth from the damage and replaced the filling with real bone. As it stands, any damaged tooth with a filling is a future problem still waiting to happen - tooth cracks, root canal, etc. A real sign of God is going to a dentist and showing her a whole tooth where 6 months earlier she knows and has xrays to prove had cavities and were filled. All the more evidence in my view of a demonic counterfeit. |
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Rick
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The sign of the spaghetti There are lots of signs that God gives that aren’t in the Bible. There’s the supernatural multiplication of the spaghetti. Heidi Baker was serving spaghetti at her orphanage and the Lord multiplied it several times over to serve every child. It doesn’t say extra spaghetti will follow them that believe, and it isn’t in the Bible, but it sure frequently does. The sign that seems to occur rather frequently among believers who are new to healing is the lengthing of legs. We don’t see lengthening of legs in the Bible but it sure happens often in the last 20 years. There were no gold filled cavities in the Bible either. But, of course, there were no fillings for cavities at that time. Just as spaghetti was unheard of. Bird feathers are a natural substance, it’s just unusual to find them inside a closed church. Blind people have occaisionally been known to regain their site but it’s unusual to see sight return in response to prayer. Rainbows occur naturally but they are a sign that God will no longer flood the world. Gold dust is a natural substance, you just don’t usually find it after spending time in fervent prayer. We get too hung up on signs. Whenever I see white bird feathers in the house now as I am cleaning, I am reminded that God is surrounding me with angels. I don’t think angels are molting and I really don’t know if some angel is sneaking around the house dropping dove feathers...after all, I have a down comforter in my bedroom. But with all the attention they begin to take on a new meaning. I went to a Patricia King meeting a month ago and at the close of the meeting I watched a feather drift down from a clean, modern indoor auditorium ceiling. I didn’t mention it to anyone but I felt that God was just winking at me. I saw Mahesh Chavda (Mahesh went to Baptist seminary and is an evangelical minister) speak at a conference at a Vineyard Church in Oregon last year. As he was speaking I noticed gold specks begin to appear across his face. Nobody said anything about it or made a big deal, but I was amazed. I am a very skeptical person. It was a great service, great worship, and as I got into my car that evening I noticed I had fine gold sprinkles on my hands and jeans. I’ve only told one other person about this and it’s only happened to me once but I was amazed. I was definitely not looking for signs, I was surprised. I am thoroughly evangelical, lead people to Jesus, pray 1 to 2 hours a day, read my Bible faithfully from cover to cover every year, teach Sunday School, attend a fairly conservative church, give money to missionaries, serve communion, own a business and have known the Lord for 39 years. I’m not a wacko and I really don’t think I am decieved. I think God can do whatever He wants to let us know He is here including multiplying the spaghetti, lengthening legs, covering the ground with manna, surprising people with money when they least expect it, sprinkling people with gold dust, letting faces shine, letting us hear angels sing or delighting us with a rainbow. And there’s nothing to stop God from doing anything He wants at any time just to let His kids know He is around. And jamadan, the incident of the woman with plastic “gold” dust, Silvana Machado, has been bouncing around the internet for years. I have also seen her on YouTube. I agree, she probably is a fake, which is sad. That’s what John Arnott (minister at Toronto) thought also. His response was, "I didn't want to have her [Machado] here because we have had far too much of the real thing--gold teeth and gold dust--to have something suspect". This is a 1999 story that gets repeated all over the internet as if it were a new story. |
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anthony
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... Rick,I enjoyed your reply to Mario.I am sure The Lord is on the move(sounds like a quote from Lion witch and the wardrobe) and doing great things as we approuch the return of Christ.Nevertheless we have to be fair and admit,Jesus did not include gold dust in His"these signs shall follow"narrative.Cheers. |
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jamadan
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You say gold is from God . . . even if it's fake? I'd like to challenge any and all who claim that they have gold dust manifesting in their homes and/or ministries to invite an independent investigator, such as Lee Grady, to your meetings to witness this manifestation in action and to obtain samples for testing and publication. This challenge should be something you jump at to prove your claim. So far, every time someone has tested a gold dust sample, it's been found to be fake craft glitter. I hear lots of claims, but no proof. And with the evidence published by Charisma years ago about the fake gold they tested in one major ministry along with the YouTube videos of another major minister loading her hair with the fake stuff back stage, there's no one out there with any credibility on the gold dust frontier. |
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Rick
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... Mario: God is restoring all things in these last days. I assume, since you are on a site for Charisma Magazine, that you believe in Speaking in tongues. The gift was extremely rare in the church after the first century. Then the fire fell on Azusa street in 1901. Today there are 600 million pentecostals in the world. Healing used to be something reserved for the rarefied Catholic saints, yet since the healing revivals in the 1920s with men like John G. Lake, healings are now common all over the world. Prophecy. Miracles. I could go on. The fact is God is in the restoration and perfecting business. He is coming for a Church without spot or wrinkle. God restored justification by faith to the Church through Martin Luther in 1520. The assurance of salvation was restored under the Wesley's ministry in the 1800s. And let me just offer a word about gold. Why gold dust? While doing a little Bible study I looked up the word “gold” in a concordance. I was surprised to find the word Gold mentioned 404 times. In comparison, the word joy is mentioned 214 times and the word peace is mentioned 231 times. Gold figures prominently in the first and last books of the Bible being mentioned initially in the second chapter of Genesis and lastly in the second to the last chapter of Revelations. The author of the book of Genesis takes care to mention that the river that watered Eden, the Pishon, was from a land of abundant gold. God made Abraham rich with gold. The first presents given to Jesus was gold. Most of the furniture of the Holy of Holies in Moses tabernacle were constructed out of Gold, the walls of the room itself were covered in Gold. Even the streets of Heaven are paved with gold. Evidently gold is so plentiful in Heaven that it becomes the new asphalt. No wonder when people spend time in the presence of the Lord they frequently are dusted with gold. We are not establishing doctrine here, signs and wonders just signify that God is in the house. You don’t build doctrine on signs, it’s just the father winking at you. And often times He does it in ways that offend our minds, shock us, surprise us. Do you think Moses was surprised when his staff turned into a snake? How could that be of God? What would you have said had you been there? Or how about Gideon’s fleece? God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Bill Johnson is a man of God, one of the most significant revivalist pastors of our generation. He is completey orthodox in doctrine and theology but with a heart of passion that burns for Jesus. He has said, we don’t follow signs, signs follow us. Jesus said, these signs will follow them that believe and I really don’t think He is out of the sign business. |
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Mario Ortega
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Strange fire in the house of the Lord Spiritual Authority: The Word and the Testimony by A.W. Tozer, 1950 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ... 2 Pet. 2:1 Whatever it may be in our Christian experience that originates outside of Scriptures should, for that very reason, be suspect until it can be shown to be in accord with them. If it should be found to be contrary to the Word of revealed truth no true Christian will accept it as being from God. However high the emotional content, no experience can be proved to be genuine unless we can find chapter and verse authority for it in Scriptures. "To the word and to the testimony" must always be the last and final proof. Whatever is new or singular should also be viewed with caution until it can furnish scriptural proof of its validity. Thoughout the twentieth century quite a number of unscriptural notions have gained acceptance among Christians by claiming that they were among truths that were to be revealed in the last days. The truth is that the Bible does not teach that there will be new light and advanced spiritual experiences in the latter days; it teaches the exact opposite! Nothing in Daniel or the New Testament epistles can be tortured into advocating the idea that we of the end of the Christian era shall enjoy light that was not known at its beginning. Beware of any man who claims to be wiser than the apostles or holier than the martyrs of the Early Church. The best way to deal with him is to rise and leave his presence! |
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AnnaH
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reply to Arlene Thanks Arlene, I appreciate your kind reaction ,but we are not only through "hurt" not attending church, as I mentioned mostly through false teaching abounding. My kids, now teenagers are very spiritually mature and stable through home-teaching and they have forgiven but are discerning but wary unfortunately but I can not help this !They are not stupid. Of course not all Christians are the same, but I was referring to those who are deceived into believing rubbish such as God blessing with gold-dust etc! What has this to do with the Gospel or Jesus? We are where we are to be for the time being as you hopefully are where you must be! I am grateful for the time given to me and for the opportunity to study the Bible with Jesus as he said "the only teacher"The Holy Spirit will always lead to Jesus first and foremost.(bring to our remembrance all He has SAID) I am European where we are maybe different as calvinism athough with its good points has made many suspicious of christianity. We need a better balance if we are to experience true revival . Love is the key ! Sharing ones home, food, compassion and faith is blessed as I have experienced . Being a witness is what we must be and the hardest. "Flesh" is not perfect no, but we are told to be ! If Christians are not better than the world then we have failed our mission It is that simple (and that hard !) Everyone responds to love and everyone shrinks from neglect. Also- that simple. Jesus'words are also simple to understand. If I cannot find Jesus and the disciples acting "nuts" then I will not either ! But following Jesus and the "way" is not meant to be an easy path as He told us. He does indeed bless us when we follow His commands and provides for our needs which in the end sums it all up ! Shalom |
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totalforgiveness
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Beware False Prophets !!! I recently attended new wine festival, which incorporated the healing on the streets seminars, Mark who hosted the seminars proposed on the third that something incredible was going to happen, (limb growth, a lady from the audience appeared and sat for prayer, as Mark held her legs firmly and used authority in Jesus name, the limb grew, there were approximately two hundred of us to witness this BUT!!! As the limb started to grow, I did not realise this for at least twenty seconds later, I experienced what seemed to be a high frequency go right through me, time appeared to slow down, I was catapulted into another dimension, (the Bible does speak of this, I would like to point out at the time I was not thinking of anything, my mind was clear, just concentrating on the limb growing, there was a guy turn up very appropriately with a video camera and projected the live images of this on two large screens, weather there was an hypnotic suggestion here or not I simply do not know, what I experienced was ascension, enlightenment, pure unadulterated bliss, everything in that time appeared so clear, an intelligence beyond intelligence, what I saw was the cosmos, but then something even more incredible happened, I received a vision from Christ, a captive vision of him behind bars, my initial reaction was, the healing that was taking place was not of the Holy Spirit, or was our lord protecting me from New Age Religion Mantra ! something was wrong this I new, since then I have received warnings from our lord, I have trained for healing on the streets, my calling, I only serve one lord, Jesus Christ Lord of all Lords there is none other, Christians only have to see someone like Todd Bentley and they flock like lemons, how dangerous all this really is, the Bible tells us to test the spirits, so we have to be careful, Keith God Bless Lee Grady’s quote from an earlier comment, In these perilous times of deception `I suggest you repent and get yourselves right with God because there may not be any time left. I do not "judge" but Jesus told us to look for the fruits did He not? I also have to live in repentance every day. Lee Grady, thank you |
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arlene
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Reply to Anna H's wierd comment Hi Anna -- I enjoyed reading your comment and I agree mostly with your view; however, don't throw every "Christian" under the bus. I too was formerly an RC, was transformed and filled with the Holy Ghost and am led by the spirit so I can pretty much discern when it's a God thing and when it's just a thing. I'm saddened that you have pulled away and are not assembling yourself with like believers. I can't believe every church that you encounter is in confusion. Where does one tithe when one does not belong to a local body? (That's rhetorical.) As far as the church folk who didn't come to your aid, well that happens and that's why I live by the scripture which says to put no confidence in the flesh. Man will always disappoint -- not so with God. Some of my greatest hurts have come from inside the church -- do I stop attending? No, I just keep my eyes on Jesus and pray for my brothers and sisters in the Lord. It's not about the people -- it's about the Lord. I pray that you find an awesome ministry for you and your family. No ministry is perfect and that's why God raises up intercessors. As far as all of that confusion which the article brings up -- yes that's why the world classifies believers as nuts. Be blessed! |
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AnnaH
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... Have just read your post jamadan about ghosts and Jesus talking to the dead. You are so right. But again, you are reading scripture as it is ! (not just as we "want to," or are told to) I agree Christians dismiss so many things without even reading scripture properly.I realise I never did either and it took me leaving churches to do so , and form opinions without a sort of brainwashing we can be subjected to. I once saw a ghost and certainly was not calling it up which is the difference.Wine and even strong drink are encouraged in proverbs! There is also the case of the man waiting for the waters "to be stirred up by an angel" for healing. Jesus never spoke against this either . Strange things are there and always have been , but we must not go looking for them .And we must test the spirits. Lourdes is i.e. an example as we do not read in scripture of "mary" being given any authority for such. But Jesus spoke against materialism. This is very clear .He could not be clearer. ! |
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AnnaH
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wierd I have not read everyone's comments so excuse me if I am repeating something. I agree with you dcsott2..over "laughing stock" I just cannot fathom that anyone can associate golddust or "gems" appearing from nowhere as having anything to do with Jesus ! If Christians actually read their bibles it may help. I do not attend a church anymore and most likely never will unless we start a home fellowship as I cannot allow my children to be influenced by churches these days ! So how can we expect a revival that will influence the world? Unbelievers think most of you are crazy and wise enough to realise these wierd happenings has nothing to do with Jesus..yes unbelievers! who often have some knowledge of Jesus (obviously more than many believers which is the irony here) I myself was a RC before conversion to Jesus. I had never read the bible much or in detail at the time but realise I obviously was more aquainted with the truth scripture than many of these people are !Now that is a shocker ! This is the plain truth apart from the fact my kids are disappointed in Christians on the whole anyway. (I was seriously ill for years and spent most of that time hospitalised) Who visited me the most? Who helped my family ? No not your average church going christian,apart from those we we were close friends with anyway but unbelievers and new agers !!! (Christians were too busy "praying" for us and letting us know I kid you not "that its not about works"..Now I am very grateful for their prayers as I was mysteriously kept alive through all I experienced to the disbelief of doctors who still cannot believe I survived! But ALL GLory goes to HIM in my story) I am no longer a "Christian". I am a follower of "the Way". All I do is follow the Gospels and nothing else. Jesus' words only.It is the only "way" I do not want to be with many christians. I have been made crazy by them and their utter rubbish. I don't even care if they are "sincere" rubbish is rubbish and has no place in the life of a follower of The Messiah All do as you want and as you please. As long as me and my family are not there ! God bless you and give you wisdom, but as for me, me and my house will worship the true Lord and that I assure you all has nothing to do with gold or riches..you have been had folks if you believe this stuff and bigtime. In these perilous times of deception `i suggest you repent and get yourselves right with God because there may not be any time left. I do not "judge" but Jesus told us to look for the fruits did He not? I also have to live in repentance every day . Lee Grady, thankyou |
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anthony
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... Amusing exegesis Rick.Are you sure the apostle sent out/had stolen dirty hanky's?This is important as we are in the influenza season.Of course The Lord can do just as He wishes,we must not presume to elaborate on that. "Test all things,hold fast what is good". Cheers |
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Rick
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Signs that make you wonder How about a guy that blows his nose all day into a hanky and then people, grab the hanky, run home with it and lay it on a sick person to heal them. You just don’t find that in the pentateuch do you. Or taking a messy old apron, wadding it up and throwing it into the hamper and people snag it to lay on sick people to heal them. No evidence for that in Jeremiah. Or how about people believing someone’s shadow can heal them. Weiirrddd. Can’t find that in Proverbs. Or a gold coin magically appearing in a fish mouth to pay taxes. One of those signs and wonders hoaxes no doubt. God just doesn’t do things like that. In the realm of signs and wonders God can do anything. Fish appearing out of thin air. Angel food carpeting the lawn for 50 years. Elijah’s angel cakes. And these are just a fraction of the signs and wonders. The widow’s oil magically appearing. What other signs and wonders has God done that we don’t know about. We are not establishing doctrine here, signs and wonders just signify that God is in the house. You don’t build doctrine on signs, it’s just the father winking at you. And often times He does it in ways that offend our minds, shock us, surprise us. Do you think Moses was surprised when his staff turned into a snake? How could that be of God? What would you have said had you been there? Or how about Gideon’s fleece? God uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Bill Johnson is a man of God, one of the most significant revivalist pastors of our generation. He is completey orthodox in doctrine and theology but with a heart of passion that burns for Jesus. He has said, we don’t follow signs, signs follow us. Jesus said, these signs will follow them that believe and I really don’t think He is out of the sign business. |
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Blue
said:
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Bill Johnson's big lie Yes Rick, I DO throw Bill Johnson under the bus, and especially from pg. 141 of his Heaven book, "On many occasions laughter has filled a room, bringing healing to broken hearts. Gold dust sometimes covers people's faces, hands or clothing during worship or ministry. Oil sometimes appears on the hands of His people; and it especially happens among children. A wind has come into a room with no open windows, doors, vents, etc. At some locations, believers have seen an actual cloud of His presence appearing over the heads of worshiping people. We've also had the fragrance of heaven fill a room. In my own experience the fragrance of heaven filled our car while Beni and I were worshiping on a short trip. It lasted for about 30 minutes, and was a smell that I could actually taste, similar to granules of sugar sprinkled on my tongue. I have seen the small gems that suddenly appeared in people's hands as they worshiped God. Since early in 1998 we have had feathers fall in our meetings. At first I thought birds were getting into our air-conditioning ducts, but then they started falling in other rooms of the church not connected with he same ductwork. They now fall most anywhere we go-airports, homes, restaurants, offices, and the like. I mention this phenomenon because it seems to offend many that fully embrace this move of God. Jerrel Miller, editor of The Remnant a newspaper whose purpose is to record the events surrounding this revival, took a lot of heat when he reported this unusual manifestation. Those who criticized his report are participants in this revival. It's easy once we've made some adjustments in our belief system about what God can and will do to think that we have stretched far enough. ..........God will violate our list of acceptable manifestations. .....I do refuse to be embarrassed over what God is dong...... His manifestations, while offensive to the minds of many, are limitless in number, and are simple indicators of God's presence and purpose. Why are they necessary? Because He wants to take us farther, and we can only get there by following signs. Our present understanding of Scripture can only take us so far." OFFENSIVE TO MY MIND??THIS IS OFFENSIVE TO MY SPIRIT! OUR PRESENT UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE?? IS SCRIPTURE NOT ENOUGH TO VALIDATE YOUR EXPERIENCES? You give me exact scripture and verse for gold dust and oil. I know about the Mighty Wind, and I don't argue people can behave strangley under the Holy Spirit at times. But you will find the people in the International Coalition of Apostles, Wagner's bunch, visit each other's churches and think they are apostles over regions, who travel the conference circuit raking in YOUR bucks while you believe such foolishness! Now you have to be ALIGNED under them in order to be blessed! Such lies! |
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Rick
said:
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White fields Dr. Who Great name by the way. I think there might be some Daleks on board here. I never really warmed up to Todd. I saw him 3 years before Lakewood at a conference and felt a little put off by the showmanship. However, many people met the Lord and were healed. I felt even stranger with all his new tatoos and angel stories. However, I want revival. And John the Baptist was a hairy man wearing camel skin and eating grasshoppers. So I held my doubts in reserve. He broke many minister’s hearts when he left his wife and left the revival. I’ll admit I felt a sense of vindication for my doubts. However recently I looked at some old video of that revival, of the times of worship when Todd was NOT there and suddenly I felt very much at home with the people in the building. Todd was just a catalyst for bringing people together. They desperately wanted more of Jesus, they were in love with the savior and would worship for hours if allowed too. There was a palpable sense of the presence of God in their worship. We want revival. Some of us are willing to pray several hours a day, fast weekly and seek the Lord for revival. Some of us are willing to pray for the sick, witness to people we meet, tell them about Jesus and worship the Lord for hours. I can’t waste my time criticizing other lovers of Jesus, I want revival. Apparently Todd refused help from people who offered though he is getting some help now from Rick Joyner. I contend it was never really about Todd, it was about the pent up deep desire to worship the Lord and enjoy His presence. Whatever the case, let’s pray the Lord of the harvest to send workers into the field because they are white unto hervest. Lets be reapers. |
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Pastýř
said:
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Basic princip I think, that problem may be described in this article from a Pentecostal preacher: http://www.moriel.org/articles...smatic.htm |
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Dr. Who
said:
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Fruits Agreed....we are called to judge by the fruit that is born. This is not to say that some of the acts in the LR were pretty juvenile and just flat wrong and could be judged right then. Todd definately got off into error with many of those things mentioned. Interesting though.....I still wonder if he started out that way and had purposed to do these things in his heart before they happened....before all these things were visible to the GodTV viewing audience and things got "euphoric". Do we accept ANY part of the LR as valid or throw the whole thing out? All or nothing? Should we help the pendulum swing all the way back over to where we are not willing to even accept revival with "Sacred Fire" but retreat into the paper fortress of sinicism and traditionalism while we continue to shoot rocks over our shoulders at the LR? Do we accept Todd as a brother in Christ who messed up big time and pray for him OR should we in our "righteousness that shines as the sun" cast him into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth? As we answer these questions, THIS is where OUR fruit will judged. I want to see revival in my heart and nation. Few on this blog thread have offered anything of real value regarding how to stoke this "Sacred Fire" that I still believe God wants to start here in America. Many though seem to have plenty of ideas on how to sequester what they consider their ideas of what "Strange Fire" is. Is anyone really willing to do what God calls them to do in order to see it happen here? Yes, it is in God's will and in God's timing, but we ALL have a part to play....revival should not be about any one individual. If you are willing to sit back and watch and not participate, then you will get your reward. However, if we really lock in with God, let His Word be our guide, let him change our hearts and get US out of the BOX, then we might actually see what we were hoping the LR to become. May God soften our hearts....blow out our walls.....and light our path with His Word as we ponder these things. This is all I have to say about this......Grace and Peace to all you folks! |
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brotherleon
said:
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Todd Bentley God went out of his way to make sure that the Church while ministering doesnt appear to be mad or crazy to the unsaved On the day of Pentecost Acts 2:14-16 For these are not drunken as ye suppose. He went on to give Biblical reference to the crowd. 1 Corinthians 14:21-25 Paul was dealing with the Gifts and when he got to tongues if we all spoke in tongues and the unlearned or unbeliever they would say we were mad. So Paul had Divine order in how the Gifts are to operate so not to appear mad before the unsaved. Todd with his Bam Bam , blah blah . Kow Pow , his vibrating , shaking his head from left to right appeared mad. Its sad that we have reduced the power of God to that level. Then when Todd stated that God wanted him to get people to believe in the Angel because people already believe in Jesus I knew Todd was a False Prophet. What made it so bad all these so call Apostles on stage giving a Word from the Lord to Todd. Apostle Che Ahn and there were others quote" Todd walked Holy and Upright before the Lord. Pleasing God in all his ways and how he hated inquity" Todd at this time had left his wife for the nanny and started back to drinking heavly again. Todd was in sin surely God knew this. Todd named Angelshe called one Warring Angels , Angels of Revival etc. Where is this is the bible. He falling of stage stating he was drunk in the Spirit started talking about kicking people , headbutting people. These are not fruits of the Holy Spirit. Hes gentle , leads , guides , speaks. |
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brotherleon
said:
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Todd Bentley Paul dealt with the worshipping of Angels in the book of Coloassians they were having dreams and visions. Todd in Lakeland was calling on spirits plural to come down and minister to the body of Christ. He hardly ever preached from the Word and when he did he was using it to support his out of body experiences. Stacey Campbell was prophesying to Todd. She misquoted scripture and took it our of context. I would think God knows his own Word and what it means. Matthew 7:21-23 Where Jesus profess I never knew you. These people worked all these miracles to have Jesus tell them we never had a relationship. How do you tell lying signs and wonders? Its by the Word of God. The lie is trying to convince you that the miracles are of God when there not. Todd is a false prophet and shouldnt be followed |
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Rick
said:
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... Jamadan...there is not one example where Patricia King urges believers to contact Angels. None. I have been completely through her site several times. Billy Graham wrote a book about angels and taught about angels. Elijah prayed that his servants eyes would be opened so that he could see angels....and he did....hundreds. Does that make him a false prophet too? Read...your....Bible. Bill Johnson and James Goll are on her board of directors, two men I have immense respect for. Are you throwing them under the bus too? |
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Dr. Who
said:
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Discipleship of Todd Bentley I don't think Todd was really "discipled" by King or Jones. See my post on Lee's "Leaders" blog. If anything, I might say that Pat King and Bobby Jones were somewhat opportunists and jumped on the bandwagon for the LR. I don't mean this in a bad way....I think I would too if I thought God was starting to work down there too. I think no one will dispute the claim that Todd was "charismatic" (in the literal sense of the word) in his demeantor or delivery. However, I do NOT think that he was properly discipled by ANYONE, and THAT is the real issue. I think that Steve Strader realized that AFTER he brought Todd in and things started happening. Cudos to Steve for realizing this and trying to bring in some accountability for Todd. Too little, too late in my opinion though. I think that Todd had a fairly young group around him and, being young in spiritual things himself, the enemy jumped in and things got swept away and spooky. Again, I think there WAS a lot of good going on--Worship and TRUE miracles--that all had to do with true believers faith in Jesus, not Todd. But the pressure was on for Todd to "perform" and attending believers kept putting a "demand on the anointing". Unfortunately, the whole thing took that left turn at Albeqerque with the "Apostolic Alignment". That is a whole 'nuther posting though. BTW--I don't know if there is an example of someone on Satan's payroll who preached the Word, but there are a number of places that talk about false teachers in our midst, and we should heed these warnings. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Jamadan So the bible says people who initiate communication with angels are witches? You are basing your argument on your knowledge of the newage movement. In reality teh devil is the imposter, not God. e.g palm reading, a true man of God can read a palm and give a word, it is God who mad ethe palm not the devil... if a man of God read a palm you would like OOOH thats of the devil because you saw the devil doing it through his witches. my point is your observations are viod because you are basing comparing them to teh newage movemet which itself is a counterfiet of Gods acts. the maji who came a worshipped baby Jesus, how did they come. They read the stars. how do you suggest people get in touch with angels? do you have any scripture on the correct procedure. NO! all you knwo is what miss king is doing is wrong because you saw some witch doing it first. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Open question in the whole bible, is there an example of a person who preached the word of God but was actually a sorcerer? Just one example please. i need one person who pretended to be of God but was secretly on the devils payroll? my bible gives me the litmus test for false prophets... them that deny the Christ. |
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jamadan
said:
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... Eddie, I read much of her website last May as well as the public rebuke from Wagner and Pierce. There was much of very deep concern, not any one incident or experience. It was her teachings. Read them for yourself and compare them to Scripture, assuming she hasn't removed the offending teachings from her site like Todd did so quickly. Pay particular attention to the ways in which she encourages people to initiate contact with angels and to have spiritual experiences. It is in these methods that the witchcraft is revealed. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Jamadan can you point out the thing that most disturbs you about Ms King. The experience that convinces you she is satanic? Please be specific |
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jamadan
said:
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... Eddie, God revealed that her ministry involves demonic influence through her own leaders making a public statement combined with the extremely obvious evidence of reading her teachings and descriptions of spiritiual experiences she promotes which contradict Scripture. That's evidence enough for me . . . take a look at the fruit (double entendre intended) and judge it the way Jesus says to. On the other hand, there's a very good chance Todd's experiences weren't spiritual at all, but simply the lies of a pathological liar who deceived many into thinking he had angelic visitations and could see sngels when in reality he just needed money and wanted attention because he's a very wounded young man who never fully recovered from his own abuse or the violence of when he raped a 7 year old boy in Canada . . . perhaps the guilt and trauma of that as well as any other crimes he committed as part of that sexual assault gang he belonged to was just too much to remain sane and what the world saw in Lakeland was the rantings of an insane man . . . now that does seem likely. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Jamadan You say Patricia King is a Witch? If she was a man I suppose that would make her a sorcerer. Ummm you are not short of conclusions are you. As a brother in christ my advice is to mind your own business. Since nobody is holding a knife to your throat to listen to these people just avoid them. Don't call them witches. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Jamadan Again I notice you take exception to the fact that Todd claimed God told him to get tatoos. I myself was tacken aback by his tatoos but that was an issue about me and my preconceptions about what people of God ought to look like. When God told ezekiel took cook using human faeces that seemed ridiculous! I am not saying God did tell him to get the tatoos. My point is who are you to say God said it or not? Don't criticise what you don't understand. I dislike tatoos but who am I to judge? On what grounds do you disprove the claim? Revelation or assumption? Scripture or Preconceived Religious Attitude. Forgive my long winded self, my point is leave judgement for God. If you can't understand them don't join them. Jesus spit and made mud with his saliva and put it on a mans eyes. That was disgusting and I think the Pharisee must have had a lot to blog about that evening. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Jamadan The Lord has not revealed to me the things you have spoken, they may be too and they may be based on hearsay. I try my best not to claim that this is a demon or angel unless I have a specific revelation from the Lord to that effect. It is careless to make conclusions on what we hear or perceive to be reality. A few years ago a friend of mine got lost in these spiritual things, some said he was a 'satanist', but being my friend i new he was simply an immature christian who thought they were hearing God when it was their mind. He lacked knowledge, he gave false prophecies and the like but he was not satanic. Simply sincere but misdirected. I find it interesting that you so boldly point out that Ms. King speaks with demons, have you seen the demons or thsi is what you think? Has the lord revealed this to you or this is what you think. Calm down, embrace patience and seek understanding. |
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jamadan
said:
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... Eddie, I have extreme doubt that God ever used Todd as you claim. He was discipled by Patricia King and Bob Jones. He practiced a form of communicating with demons, as taught by King and Jones, that made him think he was talking to angels when in reality they were demons masquerading as angels of lights. So the whole time, he's been walking in deception and spreading his perverse form of Christianity. We can see it in the evidence of his life as we now know with greater clarifty in hindsight. He had repeated relationships with female staff members, one of which lead him to withdrawal from ministry a few years ago for a year. During that time, he claims to have heard from God to cover his body in tatoos and piercings . . . oh yeah? that was God talking? or wa it more likely demons? You see, he didn't have all the tatoos before a few years ago. And he publically lied over and over about them on TV claiming they were from his pre-Christian days. Who is the Father of lies that he is yielded to? Members of his own staff and apostolic leadership team called him "a pathological liar". His staff knows that these people he was beating up when praying for were never healed, yet allowed him to stand on stage night after night claiming to have healed them. His staff knew that none of the raisings from dead could be verified, they were just emails and phone calls from strangers, and they tried desparately to get any of them to provide evidence or witnesses . . . but non could, they were all false reports (akak lies). What you believed about Todd was all llies. |
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jamadan
said:
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... Rick, Regarding Patricia King . . . you have to examine more than someone's statement of beliefs; even the demons beleive that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but that doesn't make them disciples anymore than it does Ms. King. Examine her teachings and spiritual practices which are right out of the New Age handbook and the movement she says she left before supposedly coming to Christ. Yet she never left her spiritual practices that involved demons and even teaches that to her students today in the form of guided visualiztion and communicating with demons. She's been pubically rebuked for these teachings and practices by even her elders in the New Apostolic Reformation such as C Peter Wagner and Chuck Pierce who have warned Christians to stay away from her as they will likely encounter evil spiirts if they sit iin her ministry. |
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eddiekudzayi
said:
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Satan Perverts Its unfortunate that we fail to realise the work of the devil. I think God used Todd BENTLEY up until a certain point, then Tod Bentley perhaps started doing his own thing. I have no doubt or hesitation in believing that people see angels or are transported in the spirit, or even see saints of old. All these things are in the bible. Even paul said though he was absent in body he was there in the spirit and could see exactly what the saints were doing. After Jesus rose from the dead, saints of Old were seen walking in Jerusalem. When Peter was imprisoned it was an angel that set him free. All these things are possible. The problem arises when we make these things the foundation of our faith, when we seek sign and not God. In any case I fail to see why any person of wisdom would share such awkward experiences, even Paul kept some encounters to himself. He made it clear some things a man was not permitted to utter. We must be cautious but we must not be sceptical. A few years back Charisma ran an article on TB Joshua and called him a witchdoctor and the sorts. Now TB Joshua is being vindicated by God, his prophecies have been confirmed over and over again. He has a marvellous philanthropic outreach, a Godly tv station (emmanuel.tv) and an evangelical website (scoan.com). He is accurate in words of knowledge and gives glory to GOD. The current president of Ghana openly confessed that this man told him exactly what would happen in the elections. This president fears our Lord Jesus Christ and dedicated his term to Jesus Christ. Our question to the editor then is... Over the years you have promoted charlatans and yet condemned the true servants of God. When you promote or condemn do you pray first and ask for Gods guidance and revelation? Jesus was specific that we must not judge by what we see and hear, lets make spiritual judgements. |
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Rick
said:
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... Jamadan: I have no idea what bizarre method you have for deciding who is and isn't a Christian. Here is her statement of faith. http://www.extremeprophetic.com/index.php?option=com_content&view;=article&id;=30&Itemid;=48 If that is not the true gospel I don't know what is. Nor have I heard one scriptural reason why you believe someone should be called a witch. But I am beginning to understand Salem Massachutes 300 years ago. Wow. |
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jamadan
said:
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... Rick, Having read and listened to John Crowder and Patricia King, my only conclusion is that they are the classic wolf in sheep's clothing. They are leading people to a false Jesus because theyt don't teach the true Gospel and they proclaim false signs and wonders. Sorry, but there's no way I can accept their claim to Christianity. I view them as false apostles/prophets. I believe Patricia is a witch who knows she's masquerading as a Christian to lead many astray. Just because people like that talk about Jesus and gather a group of followers doesn't mean they are Christian. |
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anthony
said:
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... i still don't like it,but thanks for the lesson.I stand by my terminology.We need to see more true discernement in these matters.Please note i have not named any names but since you have it's best that you take it up with those who obviously know more about your American rising stars.Gratifying that so many muslims are finding faith through the man you mentioned...news to me.Good night. |
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Rick
said:
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... Anthony: I agree totally with Lee on Necromancy, or faked signs and wonders. Nobody here is excusing that. But to make the leap to accuse other valid, godly ministries of witchcraft is ridiculous. So why are you throwing around the term gnosticism? Gnosticism refers to diverse, syncretistic religious movements in history who taught that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge; this being is frequently identified with the Abrahamic God, and is contrasted with a superior entity, referred to by several terms including 'Pleroma' and 'Godhead'. Depictions of the demiurge - the term originates with Plato - vary from being as an embodiment of evil, to being merely imperfect. Gnosticism was a dualistic heresy, influencing Judaism, Orthodox Christianity and Hellenic philosophy. Creation and matter were considered evil, spirit was good. Cult writings like the Gospel of Thomas were clearly gnostic. Reaction against this by the early church fathers provided the impetus for establishing the New Testament canon and the first confessions and systematic Christian Theology. For example, Gnostics did not believe in the incarnation, because matter was evil. Therefore the early Church firmly established the the truth of the incarnation of Christ who was fully God and fully man. Be careful about labeling people Gnostics. Patricia King in definitely not a gnostic, she is every bit as orthodox as you or Billy Graham. She loves the Lord passionately. Though I don’t agree with all that John Crowder does and would not promote him, so is John. Check out his What we Believe section of his website. In his defense, he is leading thousands of Indians and Muslims to saving knowledge of Jesus. Why would we use a good Christian term like “Mystic” as an insult. St. John was a Mystic, read Revelation. Read the history of the mystics in the church. Mystic really is almost synonymous with the word Charismatic. As far as Hogwash and Rubbish I’m not sure exactly what you are refering to. All this name calling is ridiculous. |
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anthony
said:
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... However much we excuse that which Lee has highlighted we cannot deny that mysticism and gnosticism and other hogwash is being seved up as truth.For myself i do not like it and will steer clear and if i was a church leader i would keep the rubbish away from the doors.The Holy Spirit is not the author of this confusion. |
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Rick
said:
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... Blue: That’s a lot of name caling and cursing on your part. The point of my post was you don’t start criticizing people like this without citing scriptual doctrines they have broken. You don’t start calling people, especially other godly people, Witches just because you don’t like the way they dress or act or talk. If unscriptual doctrines are being promoted, like the people in Detroit who were promoting contacting dead spirits, then yes, by all means, call attention to it. If divorcing, homosexuality or affairs are happening like Ted Haggard, call attention to it. If fraud is happening like Robert Tilton with his secret microphone assistant or money dedicated to orphanages is being siphoned off to vacations and expensive houses, call it out. If Walmart glitter is being used in some pathetic attempt to copy what the Holy Spirit may be doing in other ministries, shine a light on it. I'm with ya, blue, cautiously. But in cases where you have no scriptural backing for what you say, no evidence of financial impropriety or moral failure, then be very careful cursing people. My point was to examine their doctrine, their morals, their ethics and their fruit. Patricia King is madly in love with her husband of 30 years, multitudes are coming to Jesus, finances are rarely talked about and there has never been a whiff of impropriety. There are going to be thousands of redeemed people standing in Heaven because of Patricia King and a few others criticized here. Lets be careful. Then read my post about King Saul falling into an ecstatic trance for 24 hours and my post on dancing. But just because you don’t like the way someone dresses, acts or talks, that is no reason to call down curses on them. Or to accuse their actions of being demonic. That is very thin ice to be treading on. We are not even allowed to call our brother Raca, thou fool. Thank God for proverbs 26: Like a sparrow in its flitting, like a swallow in its flying, So a curse without cause does not alight. |
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revquincy
said:
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Thanks for you comments/The Beauty of Being Gracious I would like to say thank you all so much for your comments. Despite the fact that all do not agree, many have been enormously helpful, and thank you for using the Word of God to share your perspectives. Lastly, I want to say, I came from a hard core religious background and was famous for being very rough on people who fell. I say this also letting you all know that I still preach strongly against sin and do call it out, yet I have learned to be very gracious about it. When you don't give much mercy, you don't get much mercy, and this came back to haunt me as the Bible teaches us. Please, take it from a person with a few gray hairs: Before you cry out to expose anyone, first pray that the Lord will lead them to repentance and they will openly change. I know from first hand experience that sometimes you are taught sincerely, but erroneously, and you need someone to lovingly lead you the right way. First, let us pray for these people and let God separate the wheat and tare and those who are unrepentant and aggressively working for satan's kingdom will be exposed and with time The Kingdom Of God will be uplifted. My love to all and God bless. |
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dsc0tt2
said:
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"That's Not Scriptural" While it may be popular to name names and throw 'em in chains because it releases us from our responsibilities, we need to remember the proper way to go about things (Matt. 18:15-17). After all, even though Y'shua confronted them openly, the fact remains that, He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9). As far as dreams and visions go, we shouldn't shy away from them, but rather to judge them as you would a prophecy. According to scripture, this is one of the ways that God speaks to prophets and it is also one of the ways that He will speak in the last days (Acts 2:17). I can't help but wonder how Y'shua would have reacted if his parables had been confronted with, "That's not scriptural." I have been wrong in the past and I understand when people make mistakes. The important thing is that we are all pliable and able to receive correction. I do not endorse necromancy, nor do I endorse these other fads, as they leave us open to other spirits operating in our lives. Remember this, if you pray to be sensitive to the Spirit, God may answer that prayer, but it also makes you more sensitive to other spirits. Now, you have just given yourself one more responisbility to judge between the voices that you hear. I don't advise this unless you are so sure of the original that you can spot the counterfeit with ease. That's probably where these others have strayed. They are "Peters" who rush in where angels fear to tread without the proper preparation. I understand the lure of the prophetic, but not all are called to be prophets. Nor do I expect those who are do not have the prophetic anointing to completely understand. After all, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets (1 Cor. 14:32), not the pastor or the evangelist or the elders. We labor alongside, not above or beneath. As a prophet, I must concede, that once one knows what it is truly about, they fight the tendancy of the flesh to run (like Jonah). But, if you must, go ahead and bash. That's scriptural too (Mark 6:4). |
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Bro Paul
said:
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... Hello again, Is anyone really surprised at what is happening in charismatic/word of faith churches?? It is the result of New Testament/New Covenant illiteracy among believers. God's Word is the truth, but unfortunately, pastors don't teach it expositorily, and christians don't study it diligently on their own. Most christians choose a bible translation based on the ease of reading it, instead of it's accuracy to the original languages. And at that, many just try to keep up their "Bible reading plan" of one OT chapter, one Psalm and Proverb, and one NT chapter a day. And our church services are not about exalting the Lord Jesus and exalting and teaching His Word, they're about the show taking place up front on the platform. And the money grab. Like I said, is anyone really surprised at what's going on?? Just my .02. Thanks. |
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Hobbit
said:
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Lee, finish the job And name names. I may not be a fundy, but I value the way that they will name names and hold people to account. You need to do likewise before we have another disaster on our hands. |
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Blue
said:
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Strange Fire Rick, you are mistaken. Trying to endorse what Pat Koking King does on the streets is not validating her ministry one iota. Go look at those links I posted. It's time to speak up and call the false prophetesses what they are....false, new age witches trying to get us to validate them. Go look at the ad for their conference in AZ in March. They are going to "put a demand" on God to move. How presumptious can you get?? And her night club with ecstatic dancing is devilish and demonic. Her pretending she is drunk on stage talkin about the wine cellars of heaven and acting drunk and dressing with pants down to her hips and huge buckles on the hips near the pubic areas...it's all lust and show and drama for your ALMIGHTY DOLLAR not for ALMIGHTY GOD! And the one video of them "massaging the anointing" (those are their words) going into mortuaries to raise the dead, and conversing with spirits of necromancy. FALSE PROPHETESSES AND LIARS! Repent! JOHN CROWDER AND YOUR GANG REPENT! You are going around to your meetings raking in money from innocent young people who are ignorant of what the Bible says, and believe every stupid thing you do. YOU ARE DISRESPECTFUL TO THE HOLY SPIRIT! You made me sick to my stomach when I saw you online! But then again, He is the HOLY Spirit. You dont' know anything about holiness with your lewd remarks and comments, and stokin' the ghost, and your drunken glory fests is REVOLTING ME!! Go watch them online with their drunken glory fests and slosh fests. STAND UP CHRISTIANS AND TELL IT LIKE IT IS! The altars in the churches are being desecrated by all this ungodliness and sinful behavior, and pure LUST of the flesh, LUST of the eys, and PRIDE of life. The more outlandish and outrageous you become, the bigger the crowds who are fools, and the more money you rake in. You know what? ONE DAY YOU ARE GOING TO STAND BEFORE GOD AND GIVEN AN ACCOUNT OF EVERY DEED AND DIME! We best be ready. Go back to your altars and weep, wail, and call on Almighty God for mercy to forgive you for your lies and hypocrisies! The altar is a place of sacrifice. May you and your cheap gold glitter from Walmart perish with you! How dare you reduce Almighty God, to this circus-like atmosphere, and try to endorse it! Shame on you! Woe to you! Weep and howl, for your sins are coming upon you! Or Repent and confess your lies for money, money, money! You Charlatans will be discovered and uncovered, and revealed. You think Ted Haggard got caught? You just wait! I prophecy that you people will get caught for your lies and evil ways of taking advantage of the inncent and leading people down the forbidden paths just so you can have a great "show" and rake in the offerings. I do not want to be you on judgement day! Be warned! Repent, for the days are wicked and short!!! |
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arlene
said:
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... I really wish that Christians would spend more time in the Word and seeking after the face of God instead of seeking that "new thing" or that "new experience." It grieves me to be placed into that "kooky Christian" category and most importantly it casts a shadow on the plain message of the Cross. Christianity seems to be the only group that is so divided in its beliefs and conduct and that too is grievous. Other groups that call themselves religions are more united in their conduct and conversation than we are. Aren't we the ones who are supposed to know the truth? Read your bibles, .take your eyes off of man and turn your eyes to the Father. How 'bout we start there? |
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Rick
said:
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visits Interesting post Jamadan. I agree, if saints can visit us, it should be rare, a lot rarer than visits by angels. I only know of 3 departed people in the Bible who visited earth, Samuel, Moses and Elijah. Four if you count Jesus. Yet there are hundreds of angel visits to old and new testament believers. Apparently all Gehazi had to do was open his eyes to see hundreds surrounding him. The Bible tells us that the Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and rescues them. It seems almost everyone in the New Testament was seeing angels or having visits or visions and if that was not enough, by showing hospitality people have entertained Angels unawares. The key is to understand that they are just servants sent to assist believers and execute the Father's will and should not be worshipped or feared. But it sure gets exciting when they show up. |
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jamadan
said:
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Let's be clear. God never said not to talk to the dead. If he did, then Jesus sinned. Jesus was fully man as well as fully God. So if he spoke to Moses and Elijah and it was considered a sin, then he would have sinned. Since we know he was sinless and he did talk to the dead, then we know it's not a sin to talk to the dead. Summoning the dead, on the other hand, is a sin and a serious one at that. Also, when the disciples thought that Jesus was a ghost, while it was an obvious mistake, the interesting thing is that they believed in ghosts and that Jesus didn't rebuke them for thinking such things. We do know that it's possible for demons to masquerade as deceased people, but what we also know is that it's possible for the spirits of those who have died can visit on earth and talk to us and they can be God's messengers . . . how do I know? Moses and Elijah again. It's proof it can happen and God endorsed it. So why can't other spirits also visit under certain circumstances? We should never seek it, but let's not go against Scripture and label such a visit as being of the devil when Scripture tells us otherwise. Visits by human spirits should be as rare as visits from angels . . . in other words, very unlikely for most of us. Anyone telling stories of lots of visit of angels or spirits is lying or deranged. But in answer to the one who asked in this commentary, if you were visited by the spirit of a loved and the message brought seemed of God, then don't sweat it. It was likely allowed by God. Take comfort in His awesome care. Too often, we charismatics and evangelicals make sweeping statements without real Scriptural justification (e.g. all alcohol is sin, dancing is sin, ghosts don't exist, etc, etc). We need to be far more wise and careful in our judgements and pronouncements. |
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Rick
said:
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... Anthony: You know exactly what I mean. Patricia King is evangelistic as in; bringing sinners to a born again experience through the sin atoning blood of our unique and only Savior, Jesus Christ. BIG AMEN DR WHO!!! Well said. I want the real fire! Revival! |
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Dr. Who
said:
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... I do not find it odd that Lee's article is stirring up questions, even as the Lakeland revival itself did. What I DO find odd is that people who are now calling themselve non-Charismatics are frequenting this "Strange Fire" Blog in order to throw some pretty big rocks and condemn strange and unusual things happening. It's not that they couldn't or shouldn't, it just that they are doing it HERE...in this forum...on CHARISMA mag's website. If you don't call themself "charismatic", then why are you hanging around this website? Why not jump over to the COG or AOG blogs and even the SBC feel good sites and post over there? I'll tell you why I think you're doing it....not so much to be critical....not to be a "watchman on the wall" either....but because everyone who has anywhere CLOSE to heard or seen anything about the Lakeland revivial, or about what God "may be doing" over here or there....gets excited...gets expectant. Face it folks....we WANT to see REVIVAL.....in our hearts, homes, churches, workplaces, citys, counties, states and nation. This is part of the reason why I think all kinds of people are posting here...and not on an SBC blog. I think we all really wanted to see God move again as he did in days of old and were wondering if the LR was it. Now...disappointment. Rightly so....there was a lot wrong with it (there was a lot right too, funny we talk about that more), but MANY are still EXPECTANT for God to do WONDERFUL things among us still. I'm not saying that many of you aren't correct in your discernment....but realize that there is a "Sacred Fire" that is hotter and more wonderful than "Strange Fire". Careful however...you might find that THAT won't fit into your perceived definition of "revival" either though(and, yes, it will all be biblical too). |
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Rick
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Bereans Anthony: Aren't you referring to the Bereans? "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." You had better examine the scriptures systematically to find out whether these things are true. And don't just stand on one poorly understood scripture, tradition or loosely applied metaphor to make doctrine (Like the Strange Fire of Leviticus. I looked at several commentaries yesterday and no one really knows what the core of the problem was). Make sure you see a consistent theme verified by many passages and make sure it doesn't contradict another well established doctrine. And then look at the fruit. As I have said, no one is more evangelistic than Patricia King. Evangelism, bringing the unsaved to Jesus is what drives her. I have studied the Bible systematically for 38 years, taken classes in Systematic Theology, classes in Old and New Testament. I have attended a large mainstream Foursquare Church for 25 years. When you say Old time doctrine, whose Old Time are you referring to? Pentecostal experience is only 101 years old if you date it to Azuza Street. Read the history of American revivals, The Welsh revivals, the Quakers, The Moravians. Some of these spiritual experiences are more orthodox and have more historical precedent than you might imagine. |
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anthony
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... Rick,There is the danger of having an "experience" and then going to the scripture tofind justification for that same thing.We should never be led by experiences but rather by the Holy Spirit and His Word.Quite frankly i'd rather trust old time doctrine based on systematic study of the Bible than the "modern" weird fads Lee Gradey and others have alluded to.Blessings! |
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Rick
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... I hear a lot of folks complaining that this is not how they were raised. The term Charismania is thrown around a lot as a pejorative. But the only scriptural point anyone is making here is that Necromancy is forbidden by the word of God. Right on, great point. Everything else I hear feels like old time pentecostals complaining that this is not how they were raised. Reminds me of the Music Man stirring up the town complaining that we got trouble in River City. "The old time religion is good enough for me". I think it's funny that one would use last night's dream about sharks to criticize overly subjective Charismania. Ironic. If you want to criticize, cite scriptures. Because I can cite a whole bunch of scriptures about Biblical trances, shouting, leaping, visions, the wine of the Holy Spirit, multitudes of angelic encounters, etc. Normative Christian experience should be based in the Bible, not our old time American religion or old brother so and so or last night's dream or our delicate sense of propriety. Read, read, read the Word of God. |
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dsc0tt2
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... Last night, the Lord gave me a dream in which children were at the beach, playing in the sun and swimming in the waters. Along came a shark and began devouring the children. I think you can get the analogy. Yes, we should enjoy what the Lord is giving us; at the same time, we should be wary of swimming with the sharks who are out there to only feed their own ravenous appetites. Know those well who labor among you and know your scriptures so that you're not being led about by counterfeit doctrines. Love in the Lord, Pastor Scott |
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charisjoy
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... In the mid 70's a couple I know moved to the upper peninsula of Michigan and began searching for a church. An Assembly of God church they visited was proud to share their spiritual success for their Sunday school program - they used a Oui-ja board. When I heard this I asked myself just how far this spirit filled ( which Spirit I no longer know) church had gone astray? |
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Bro. Bob
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Baal or GOD I was forced to leave a Todd Bentley meeting in KC in 2002 because of the grief of the Holy Spirit that hit me after he had the crowd pretending to heft large imaginary barrells and get "drunk on the Holy Ghost" while staggered around the platform. I gasped in horror as I read about the pretend needles and toking the Holy Ghost. I once heard a greatly respected Charismatic minister from our area in Louisiana say he could feel the Spirit like a spray from off the ocean. He then proceeded to say, "Come on Holy Spray!" May GOD have mercy on us all! I must recommend an audio message by B.H. Clendennen, a great Pentecostal pioneer, that was given Prophetically back in l981. It is on his "School of Christ International" website under multimedia/audio. It is entitled Baal or God, and it so nearly predicts what brother Grady is talking about in his "Strange Fire" message that it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck!!! I am persuaded it will have a similar effect on all who listen with an ear for the truth. PLEASE listen to it! For the sake of the Lord's precious Body. |
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Rick
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Necromancy If someone is advocating trying to contact dead saints that is strictly forbidden in Scripture. However, there are thousands of stories of Christians who have seen a departed loved one in a vision rejoicing in Heaven. Sometimes God gives us a litlle glimpse of eternity though we are expressly forbidden from trying to contact anyone. I myself caught a little glimpse of my Grandparents in Heaven once some time ago in a dream or vision. Anything more than that is what Saul did in rebellion. My personal belief is that we are more afflicted with angel blindness than anything. The Bible is full of accounts in nearly every book of normal folk seeing angels. From Gehazi seeing hundreds to...you name the saint. They all at one time or another encountered angels. The question may be, who in the bible didn't see angels. Not only are we told that through our hospitality we may be encountering angels unaware, but the angels of the Lord encamp around those that fear Him. Of course there will always be kooks who either invent wild stories or are mentally unbalanced. That would be a perfect strategy of the devil to discredit all encounters wouldn't it? Let's not get too worked up about this strange fire business. Stick to what is obviously a clear violation, Necromancy is a sin. |
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Rick
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Semantics. let's be fair. I always appreciate Lee Grady’s dedication to the truth. I especially appreciate it when he exposes frauds, fakes, heretics and unscrupulous greedy ministers. This is a needful correction for the church. However, I fear that in our enthusiasm we go beyond criticizing the unethical to attacking the unfamiliar or uncomfortable. If you are going to reject a doctrine or practice, please base it on scripture. I think if we had seen Samuel’s company of the prophets (1st Samuel 10) in full on worship mode we would be muttering about demons and writing articles. Imagine coming across 100 animated young people, all claiming to be prophets, playing weird instruments like the 12 string Nevel, the Kinnor, drums, and singing and chanting in a high pitched, off key middle eastern sound. Some are shouting, all are prophesying. Guaranteed to make us question whether it was “Of the Lord”. And when Saul met them, he stripped off his clothes and fell on the ground into a prophetic trance and lay prone for 24 hours prophesying, as did the 3 companies of soldiers who also fell into a trance after trying to arrest David. What I saw in the dancing video was pretty tame and a lot of the discomfort I chalk up to an eager young inarticulate new Christian who is perhaps not as sensitive to semantics as we older evangelicals might be. King David spent months with Samuel and this bizarre group. In fact, a little later, David got into trouble with his conservative wife by dancing and leaping wildly for hours in public before the ark. His wife thought he looked foolish and undignified and accused him of exposing himself through his wild dancing and leaping in skimpy linen undergarmets. This is the same David who wrote many times, “praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute”. I recall another woman prophet who convinced thousands of women to spontaneously dance and bang on tambourines in Exodus 15. Unfortunately, we may all be eventually pulled into this crazy dancing movement because Jeremiah prophesies that in the future “The young women will dance for joy, and the men—old and young—will join in the celebration. I will turn their mourning into joy.” I don’t know about feathers, gold dust or gems. Only once I’ve seen gold flakes appear on Mahesh Chavda as he preached. I know that as long as our focus is on Jesus, it really doesn’t matter whether signs appear or not. It’s nice when they do, but my eyes are on Him. However, God can, and has sent plenty of pretty exotic signs and wonders all through the Bible. From Elijah’s angel cakes to miraculously appearing oil, 150 gallons of wine, tons of manna, tongues of flame, fire, glory clouds, bright lights, a stick that turns into a snake, sudden wind, gold coins suddenly appearing in a fish mouth etc. The other thing I would like to say is few are as evangelistic as Patricia King and the XP people. They are out every night and day, in the streets, telling people about Jesus and leading thousands to personal salvation. It’s unfortunate when we wrangle over semantics. New Age people experience trances. New Testament people also experience trances, as Peter did. I’d like to believe the devil is trying to pollute perfectly valid Biblical language and experiences. New age people talk about ecstasy. The word ecstasy is also used throughout the New Testament and is usually translated as astonishment or amazement. I personally think ministers like John Crowder cross the line of respect when he uses the term, “Toke the Ghost”. I have heard of breathing in the Spirit or the breath of God. But the word toke is street lingo for inhaling marijuana. I also get a little bothered by this. However, before we get too critical of John Crowder, I would peruse his book, The Ecstasy of Loving God. It’s very thorough and well researched whether you agree with it or not. He has gone places in the world to evangelize that most of us would be fear to go, including Afghanistan, Pakistan and Palestine. John has led thousands to salvation and has a particular burden for kids in drug culture and hard to reach muslims. Heidi Baker led a fairly uneventful life as a traditional evangelical missionary with disappointing results until going to Toronto, falling into a trance of sorts at the altar and lying immobile for days. Afterwards, she and her husband have been responsible for evangelizing Mozambique, the poorest country in the world and launching 8,000 churches and many orphanages. So, lets reject heresy and immorality, but please stop wrangling over semantics or things that are simply different than what we are used to. And let’s examine the fruit, which in the case of Patricia King, Heidi Baker and others is gloriously abundant. |
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lita
said:
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Fire in my Bones/stange fires Those who wander into these kinds of "worship" are either lost sheep or sheep without a shepherd. When the The centrality of the Lord Jesus Christ is neglected and other teachings get more emphasis we have sheep who do not learn to hear the Shepherd thus they try to get their high where ever. Oh that God would raise up the shepherds who truly will teach from the Word of God unveiling the loveliness of Jesus Christ, strong and gracious Savior and at the same time glorify Him with the use of gifts given by the Holy Spirit. |
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Darold Tumlinson
said:
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False Apostles & Prophets Sorry to say, we charismaniacs have made prophets and apostles into the superstars that they are today. Here's a little experiment... place one finger at the back of any O.T. prophetic book and a thumb at the beginning. That is the sum total of that prophet's written works for their entire lifetime. The Latin word for Missionary means "sent" (same as the Greek word apostello which is where we get our word "Apostle"). I dare say that many who claim to be prophets and apostles, when faced with such anonymity or labor in the true fields, would back down from their professed calling. Anyone finding themselves in such a position should repent and seek forgiveness and contentment with their true calling. What does it profit a man if he gains the entire world and loses his own soul? |
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Apostle James
said:
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... Thanks for being a voice for so many in the ground swell who have a limited voice to the nation and church. It is nice not to see the typical open minded broad stroke responses like "no condemnation" or "whoever cast the first stone" mentality that is allowing the flood of unchecked unsubstantiated miracle gulosh that has over saturated the unsuspecting pursuers of 'god' In realily this generation seeks a sign so that the seemnlgy 'absent God' will make an appearance in the midst of unholy hearts 'full of emptiness'. I am happy to see some pentecostals speaking out and especially the charismatics but I notice the absence from the new prophetic movement. Maybe they will show up soon. However, we dissenters cannot afford to give mere cliches' and 'pat' answers to this mess although the simplicity of the gospel is indeed the key. The gospel has been clouded through the improper use of verse and that was Satan's tactic with Jesus. They both used verses during the temptation. Like the wheat and tares, the things being fed to us like "the room in heaven with spare body parts and aborted babies crying asking for some on earth to fulfill heir purpose " etc are linked with verses that are not attached to a foundationsl verse. The mind is open to wander with these wandering stars (prophets) through a universe where there is nothing specified nor meaning established in the house of God as there woiuld be guidance from a fixed star. Trivial answer: For instance to say that there are only 12 Apostles ignores the others known as Apostles in the NT. You can't wipe out the potential for modern Apostles by such a broad stroke. There are only 12 in the foundation of the city and that is of enormous importance. We need to get back to their foundation regardless of our ministry gift. Trivial Answer: Neither is the problem solved by ruling out angelic activity with a broad stroke. There may be angels unaware as you all well know so there is a greater problem at work here. What do we know specifically that will belp this eneration disvern the egos nd mental instability behind so many of these claims? Lets give some solid answers that distinguishes and clarifies not over-simplifies. Why did Moses and Elijah apear with Jesus? The answer is simple but not easily perceived by someone so longing for the supernatural to satisfy their unbelief. James |
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bn
said:
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Strang Fire? or Strange Doctrines It is interesting that Lee Grady condemns aberrant practices but not the aberrant teaching and theology that bears this rotten fruit. Sowing to the wind, reaping to the whirlwind. This is what happens when ‘new revelation’ is valued more than Biblical doctrine….do those at Charisma have the courage to call out by NAME these false 'apostles and prophets' who are fleecing God's flock? |
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preacherman0007
said:
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Finally I pastor a church in Canada and have been a part of the charismatic movement since 1985. I have been in the minsitry in one for or another since 1980. I am glad that there are people speaking out. Finally. I am actually leaving charismania for a main line Pentecostal movement for a variety of reasons. Simply put the charismatic movement is in danger of becoming nothing more then a New Age move of their god. How graceful God must be with us. Am II judging? NO I don't think so. Just fruit inspecting. It must also be remembered that we are to patter our lives after Christ and how he lived. Not on the latest manifestation or new teaching. Weird is not wonderful, it is strange fire. If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, we better remember Nadab and Abihu. I am haunted by this feeling that something is very wrong. I read somewhere, "Judgement begins at the house of God..." Scott Canada |
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Bachman
said:
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James Bell is correct CHARISMA has ran cover stories and articles on these people (Patricia King, et al) and accepted advertising for their conferences and many of us cried "foul!" on the whole Todd Bentley thing before it was all exposed. At the time, CHARISMA basically ran "press releases" on that "revival" never investigating. That remains a blemish on the magazine. My concern is NOT the extreme examples Grady listed--those who choose to believe/follow that nonsense are simply immature or choose not to read their Bible--I'm concerned about the "end time" prophets CHARISMA publishes and endorses. The "prophecies" are so vague and yet to give them space on this website and in the pages is a real concern. |
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righteousness71
said:
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Deliverance Is Key! J. I would like to ditto the thanks for speaking the truth and ditto everyone who has called for true revival. Some of the strange goings-ons that you mentioned in the article sound similar to the Corinthian church. The church at Corinth was strong in the gifts of the spirit HOWEVER, according to 1 Cor. 5, the church evidently had an issue with sexual perversion running rampant. Nevertheless (and I'll know I'll get flack for this), the issues that you mentioned in the article will not be rightly dealt with until the Body of Christ at-large embraces the ministry of deliverance through the casting out of devils. The enemy can not stand the ministry of deliverance because it makes an open show of him. Now, before all of the Bible scholars pull out their concordances and start calling me a child of the devil, let me state that I am not saying that Christians can be possessed by both the enemy and the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the enemy can not possess a human's spirit once it has been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb. However, many believers do not want to accept the fact that although our spirits have been made holy---the SOUL is another story. The soul houses our mind, will, intellect, emotions and it needs to be constantly worked on according to 3 John 1:2. It is where the enemy and his kingdom can set up shop----through pride, lust, perversion, anger, etc. Deliverance is for the delivered. It is not for the undelivered. Jesus said that deliverance was the children's bread (Mark 7). Who are the children?---WE ARE---and, until we start utilizing this part of the salvation gift that was given to us through Christ Jesus, we will continue to see more of this demonized, foolish, irreverant behavior in many churches. |
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Malazech
said:
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Stang Fire I'm thankful we have true ministers such as yourself Grady who speaks the truth how it needs to be spoken. I'm doing a sermon titled "Prophetic Cavities" and it addresses some of the spiritual type mysticism that has infiltrated the church. You'd think that there was going to be a million apostles and prophets buried next to each other instead of just 12.....lol God bless you Grady... Keep it up! |
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Blue
said:
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... What took you so long to write this? We were posting about this 8 months ago on the General Forum you closed down, and giving names and websites too. Where have you been? Some of you are asking who the people are. Yep, they’ve advertised in Charisma for their conferences.. Sid Roth promotes these people on his program all the time. Patricia King is the biggest proponent of the things you speak about. Here’s her ecstasies worship and mortuary ministry websites. Try not to throw up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gYxr-hWOnk http://www.alittleleaven.com/2008/08/mortuary-outrea.html#comments Watch this video of their Esctatic dancing night club in AZ called “Lite Club” it will scare the pants off ya! http://www.youtube.com/user/djcaleb1 Joshua Mills, oil manifestations, blood, stigmata http://www.newwinerevival.org/Media1.html David Herzog had people on his website who claimed instant weight loss, but may have removed it by now. Went to AA Allen’s grave and supposedly got some kind of miracles from Miracle Valley. http://www.thegloryzone.org/ These are the worst...token Jesus http://www.myspace.com/thenewmystics John Crowder Watch them on youtube. It’s awful what they are doing! Look up sloshfest on youtube. Don’t throw up!! Gemstones, http://reallybigcompany.com/pa...nes_idaho/ The drunken glory tours and and the new ecstatics, http://www.thenewmystics.com/G...ences.aspx Todd Bentley’s Angelic Hosts teachings. http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html |
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Tom Cole
said:
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A True Move of God I've been in charismatic circles for the past 22 years and have seen various moves and I've enjoyed the experience. But I'm looking forward to TRUE revival where repentance and true heart change come about. I'm looking for a church on fire for the Bridegroom and speaking truth into a culture that is dying from a lack of truth. I'm really not interested in moves that just make us feel good and chase after spiritual pleasures. I want to weep over my own state and the state of those I love and over my nation. That's what I pray for every day. |
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prophet rick
said:
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High Fad Diet God bless you brother Grady as you continue to speak the bold truth!! I have read your articles and reread them at times because there is definitely the voice of the "Father" in your words. God has anointed you to address these difficult and sometimes sensitve issues in the body of Christ. I am certain there are thousands of people (through your words of wisdom) being set free from the influence of this "strange fire" etc. There are others (like myself) who sigh with relief when they read your articles, because it is good knowing that we are not alone in our pain in seeing the church wallow in this deception! Others are comforted by the Truth and Discernment in the words you write, because they feel alone and at times abandoned by the church at large. They struggle within themselves with the idea they have somehow, somewhere missed the mark, because they too struggle with the "strange fire" and the strange people around them. Thank you for stepping into this "arena" and being a "prophetic voice" and bringing clarity to those seeking for the truth! If I ever am honored by meeting you I could surely share with you the wierd and bizzare things I too have observed in the body of Christ, in my travels in ministry. I was raised pentecostal so it takes a lot to cause "my jaw to drop in downright shock." I remember one particular service I visited. I didn't kow whether to call out to God for relief, or the local dog catcher! (smile) The prophetic word below came to me in prayer a couple of years ago, but after reading your article "Strange Fire In The House Of God" I thought it was relevant to send to you today. In His Rest, Prophet Rick Fultz Prophetic Insight 02-05-07 This word came to me this morning as I was considering the condition of good people mostly “people in ministry” caught up in religious rituals. I was praying in the spirit, for those good men and women of God to be released from this bondage and God spoke these words to me. Please read these words and look inwardly at your own heart. A word of caution! Do not fall into the trap of not hearing this word for yourself, and pointing the finger at others whom you may feel need to hear this word. Prophet Rick Fultz High Fad Diet “My people that are among religious influence have taken on a multi-dish diet. They have become addicted to a High Fad Diet. They move form one fad to another in search of something to satisfy their hungry souls. They have become fat on a smorgasbord of religion. A little of this, a little of that and eventually their taste buds become bored with the same ole dish. So, they sniff out another diner, where the aromas of religion offer something different. Sound familiar? I will send My Prophets in among those who have fallen into this false religion to release them from the voice of Balam. I will bring them out with the swiftness of a falcon. My prophets will stand between them and this “faddish spirit” and My people will be given the opportunity to eat the Bread of Life. Those that choose Me will indeed be set free. Free from desiring the next new fad among the religious crowds. Free to focus on My purpose for their life and not the suggestive voices from the smorgasbord of religion. Learning to ignore the fads will be a challenge for those that have been deceived, but when discernment floods their heart they will rejoice for their freedom. Guard your heart from the intense pressure, for I am preparing for battle! This season of time will be filled with intense pressure. My prophets will stand with great opposition, as this false religion attempts to tighten its grip on the hearts of the deceived. Those that have become deceived will fight with feelings to belong, and to be accepted among such groups. Having the faith and courage to walk in their gifting and calling, without the influence of this smorgasbord religion will be their inner struggle. They have bought the lie that this is the only place where they can function in their gifting and calling. They have been told that this is the "only" place where they can worship God, and for this reason My anger has been kindled! It is now time that I will bring My people out from among this bondage and deception. Guard your heart, from the intense pressure that is coaxing you away from My purpose! The purpose I have established for you is being challenged! Take heed and rejoice that I am sending a strong word to My body, and those that heed the words of My prophets will rejoice exceedingly,” saith the Lord of Host! |
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LydiaJo39
said:
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... I'm always amazed when something I wrote in my blog is validated by someone I respect and admire. My entries for February 3 and February 10 speak in small part to this same problem. You can check it out here. http://www.praisegarment.blogspot.com/ J. Lee Grady, thank you for bringing this so cogently to the attention of the faithful. It only takes a one degree variance from the narrow track to lead people straight to perdition. Small deviations lead to gross perversions eventually. We do well to be warned and vigilant. |
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JAird
said:
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Thank you I have been and continue to speak out about this type of weirdness and wickedness. It is though that some folks preach extra spiritual experiences like some did in the days of the early church fathers and lead people into the danger of heresy and cult like behaviour. I am Pentecostal Minister and everything I have personally heard or seen, and that you have so eloquently written and warned people about, goes totally against the Word of God. God wants us to be a people who will be different from the world and its systems but not weird. Where is the authenticity in doing what other pagan religions do? There is none. There are those who would disagree with me and say God can do whatever He wants too. Yes, that is true God is sovereign but He will NOT contradict His own Word. King Saul before he died, who did he seek counsel from? Did he go to the prophet or the witch? Obviously, he went to the witch and performed a seance, and when she saw who came up.... well, I think we all know the ending to that story. As to Jesus meeting with Moses and Elijah thats a different ball game. Why? Because Jesus didn't have a seance and the 2 prophets that did appear one was taken up and did not taste death and Moses body was never found. What did Jesus, Moses and elijah talk about? I don't know and I don't need any kind of "extra", "mystifying" experience to find out. Keep up the good work and may we all ask the Holy Spirit to give us the gift of discernment. |
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Dr. Who
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... J. Lee hit another home run with this article. I count myself with the so-called "charismatic" bros and sistern and know that for us who have been in the movement a while, we are disgusted with fabrication of miracles when it recurs. We see it every few years or so it seems. Anyone remember evangelists who would call out in a service with remarkable detail that you had a problem and lay hands on you? We found out later that they had an earpiece in their ear listening to someone who had interviewed that person ealier and was feeding that info to the evangalist during the service. Why is it so hard to let God do what HE wants to do WHEN he wants to do it? Do so many of us have the spirit of Judas Iscariot, where we try to force the hand of God to do what WE want, only to find that he gets his way anyhow and still used us in the process? Here's an analogy: Strange fire is likened to a propane gas fireplace. It burns, gives heat and light, and is relatively easy to ignite. You don't have to do much to get it going. Holy fire to God is likened to a wood fireplace. You have to cut or gather the wood(which takes hours), stoke the fire(sometimes getting burned), move around the pieces(getting burned some more), get up and stoke it again, etc. Difference is that a wood fire requires you to get INTIMATE with it, unlike the propane one. Like me, does anyone else prefer a campfire over a fire you light in your house with a remote control? For him who has ears to hear...... By the way, if anyone has been with Charisma a while, you know why they advertise the same guys they seemingly bash sometimes. Stephen Strang had a very good commentary a several years back when there was this big thing with Hank Hanegraff. Won't try to paraphrase what was said, but rationale seemed sound. Maybe Charisma could run that again for all you doubters. |
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JimBerlin
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... Ministers of the Gospel have a Holy responsibility to minister the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" not nutty faddish spiritual experiences that simply feed a hunger for a new ecstatic high that is beyond the normal and simply like another thrill seeking experience. Meeting and experiencing our Heavenly Father, maker of Heaven and Earth, as revealed through the Bible in the form of Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit should be enough to satisfy our needs. It saddens me to see how many Christians today think the highest level of worship is to become 'drunk' in the Spirit to the point of no control. People need to research the word "drunk" in the New Testament. They will not find any reference encouraging Christians to be drunk in the Spirit. Filled, yes. Drunk, no. One of the fruits of the Spirit is Self-Control. Being 'drunk' in the Spirit and having 'no control' is contrary to the Character of the Holy Spirit. I believe even the most profound experiences with the Holy Spirit need our permission and cooperation. We still have control - we can always say yes or no. Of coarse God does special things at special times for special situations but those things are not the norm and should not be things we seek after. We should keep our focus on the Jesus of the Bible - not on drunk-like experiences. |
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GeorgiaBoy
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Huh James Bell says Charisma is advertising the people who are doing this. I'd like to know who he is talking about, because the folks I know who are teaching these things are not in the pages of Charisma. |
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James Bell
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... I always enjoy the direct, truthful comments of J. Lee Grady, so often missing in most Christian periodicals. But the screaming question, not answered for years now, is why does Charisma promote and advertise the very people Grady exposes? When these questions are not answered, many of us assume that it is about money. If this is true, should not this kind of hypocrisy also be exposed? Of course, we would all miss J. Lee.... |
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criznale93
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Utterly amazed.... I am utterly amazed at what I just read....is that really happening? I find it so hard to believe that the charismatic church is participating in these things. May God help us! |
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JorgeRamirez
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Apostles That's not all. There is a virtual plague of 'apostles' and 'prophets' who think they are called to lead the church. They come up with 'prophetic words' left and right but more often than not they's simply throwing lots of stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Charisma itself is a big part of the problem. Through the years it has advertised -- and lent a platform to -- countless people on or beyond the fringes of Biblical Christianity. The name-it-and-claim it crowd. The send-me-money-so-God-can (must!) bless-you scammers. The anointing merchants. The fantasists who walk in and out of heaven. When is that going to stop? |
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Hobbit
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Bang on target, as usual And while you're about it, "strange fire" can also include accounts of near-death experiences ... just like the one Charisma is advertising on this website (ie. "Go back happy"). |
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revquincy
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Is There A Difference or Is is all the Same? To Brother Grady. Thank you for your very informative article and taking a stand for God's Word. I have a sincere question. We know to use a medium is always evil and is witchcraft and my question is this: Is it different when an individual has a one time experience and appears to see and communicate with a lost loved one for a few moments? I have pondered this now for some time. Thank you again for this article |
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anthony
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... A great wave of sadness hit me as i read the article.The writer is not a party pooper,these are not services but Christianised seances.Where are the other senior ministers from the Charismatic ranks who will stand and call for a clean up of the house of the lord?This is one fire that needs to be extinguished and fast. |
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live4thisgeneration
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... When we humble ourselves and truly be transperant with ourselves, our God and our fellow Christians, our churches will see revival. What kind of revival ? True revival. Revival that exalts Christ over EVERYTHING!!!! Over OUR worship, over OUR preaching, over OUR personalies, OUR reputation, over OURselves! ! Revival that leads the US to repentance and draws the prostitutes and gang bangers into Jesus' arms where they will find love, acceptance and true salvation! May we truly be the nameless faceless generation that loves not our lives unto themselves and is fully given over to Him who laid His life down for us! God, we humbly ask is to help us to do this!!! Thank you, J. Lee Grady for your Jehu spirit... |
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tomwinfield77
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... How about the wacky prophetics qualifying as Strange Fire too? Got one today prophesying a new anointing for the Bride, angels being loosed by God to heal and open doors for us. Angels, with these prophetics, take the place of the Spirit of God. We saw that in the Lakeland Revival run by Todd Bentley. Lots of spookiness. Lots of sssspirituality... Lots of weirdness in the laying on of hands--as in, knocking people down with a body block, kicking an old lady in the face to heal her (the biker-booted foot stopped by God in mid-flight, in what turned out to be a test of obedience for Todd, and the old woman healed of whatever she had, and the big crowd roaring its approval). When did prophecy become "prophetic messages," which is something less, and does not require the prophetic person to be right, and leaves the testing of the message up to the one it was given to? If this isn't STRANGE FIRE, what is? And how about what's happened to healing by God the Father in response to faith in the name of Jesus the Son? Now this healing also involves doctors, medicines, hospitals, and insurance policies. Instead of asking God to heal the person, we pray that He will guide the hands and minds of the doctors. When you compare healing today--if indeed a person gets healed--to what we see in the NT, it seems that divine healing has become STRANGE FIRE too. I've been saying for some time that we need to clean house. We need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and start all over again. Wish we could do that, don't you? |
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LBKJ
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Thanks J. Lee - I'm not from the Charismatic movement, though I think people like me can learn from the movement when it comes to freedom in worship style for one thing. But I particularly appreciate your sane and balanced voice toward those in your midst. Hard to believe there's such unbiblical craziness afoot among charismatic brethren, but good to know there's a prophetic voice (in the truest sense) calling those brethren away from the lunatic fringe. Blessings on you... |
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farmgirlcyn
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... And so it is written..."For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Romans 2:24 Full-gospel Charismatics have become a laughingstock to the world because of the very things written here. To quote Dr. Alan Cairns, "How many Christians are living in the power and the blessings of God? How many churches know what it is to pray and ever get any answers to the prayers? The proof of what is said is easily proved. Just look at all the offense of man, to make it look like God is moving---when it is as obvious as the nose on your face that it is something drummed up by man. When a "charismatic evangelist" has to stoop to the trickery of mass hysteria to produce psychological effects that will hype what he has read in some book---what is that but a confession that the real thing is absent? The world can mock our God because we have not demonstrated His power." |
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dsc0tt2
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... This is the sort of stuff that makes "Christians" the laughing stock of the world. Real Christians have entered into the "greater things" many, many years ago. What we are experiencing is a Jezebel spirit. Jezebel didn't just seek an inordinate control, but also to start stepping the nation of Israel backward toward Paganism. She sought to silence the true prophets of God and replace them with her own people-pleasing prophets. There was no ordinance restricting one sort of fire or another, since fire is fire, but the fuel for the fire, the wood or incense or the sacrifice, had definite restrictions because they were to be representations of Christ. In Rev. 8:3 the prayers of the saints are offered together with the incense. I believe that the Incense is Christ. He is the one that makes our prayers acceptable before the Father. What we are seeing are definitly not representative of Christ. Those that are worship leaders need to be content to abide in their calling, as well as any other ministerial office. Have we become so discontented with the pull of the Gospel and the love that we find in Jesus that we have to seek out "new things?" It sounds like some "Christians" have too much idle time on their hands. That's a dangerous place to be in at any place of employment. Even more so when we will all be called to account for our works (Matt. 16:27). |
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