In this day of compromise, we must restate the obvious: God requires leaders to play by the rules.
Almost two years ago a dynamic preacher from a growing church in the Southeast was caught in adultery. His distraught wife talked with the "other woman," an exotic dancer from another country, and shared Christ with her. Meanwhile a small group of pastors "covered" the situation and hurriedly sent the embarrassed pastor to a few weeks of counseling. In the end, the pastor and his wife divorced and members of the congregation who didn't have all the facts blamed her for the breakup.
Today this pastor is still in the pulpit—although his preaching has a hollow tone. Some members of the church left when they learned of the pastor's unfaithfulness. Yet many others stayed because they felt they shouldn't judge the pastor for his sin.
| "As painful as it is to remove a gifted leader from his or her position, it must be done to preserve the fear of the Lord." |
This situation has been repeated over and over in recent years. Jamal Harrison-Bryant, pastor of the 10,000-member Empowerment Temple in Baltimore, was accused of fathering a child out of wedlock. His wife, Gizelle, citing adultery and cruel treatment, filed for divorce in 2008. Yet Bryant preached a now-famous sermon in the church in which he used King David's story of adultery with Bathsheba to defend himself.
"I am still the man!" he shouted from the pulpit as worshippers stood and cheered. "The anointing on my life is greater than any mistake." He made it clear that he had no intention of being defrocked or disciplined. To Bryant, anointing surpasses character.
All this moral failure among leaders today has average Christians confused. Is there ever a time when leaders are disqualified? Is restoration always immediate? Are we acting like Pharisees if we demand that leaders sit on the bench for a while to recover from their mistakes and prove their character again? It is time for us to restate some obvious rules:
1. There are definite qualifications for Christian leadership. The apostle Paul made it clear that there is a litmus test for leaders in the New Testament church. In 1 Timothy 3:2-7 he says a leader must be (1) above reproach; (2) the husband of one wife; (3) temperate (not an abuser of alcohol or other substances); (4) prudent; (5) respectable; (6) hospitable; (7) able to teach; (8) a good manager of his own family; (9) respected in the community; and (10) not a new convert.
In his letter to Titus, Paul offers a similar list and adds further qualifications, including (11) not self-willed; (12) not pugnacious; and (3) not fond of sordid gain.
Notice that only one of these qualifications ("able to teach") involves anointing. Paul says nothing about a leader's ability to prophesy, heal the sick, see visions, talk to angels, raise funds, sing, shout or make audiences swoon. Neither does he require certain academic credentials. Character is the key.
Many scholars agree that "husband of one wife" was a New Testament-era way of saying "he must be a one-woman man." In other words, he cannot be an adulterer. (Nor can he be polygamous.) Leaders must walk in sexual purity. They must adhere to the biblical definition of marriage and stay faithful in that context.
2. Those who do not meet these qualifications must step down. If Paul demanded character of his leaders, it stands to reason that those who fail in any of these areas should be removed from office—at least until they regain the character quality after a time of rehabilitation. When leaders failed, Paul also recommended that they be strongly rebuked "in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning" (1 Tim. 5:20, NASB). Their sin was never to be minimized, excused or swept under a rug.
This strict approach was not optional—and Paul warned Timothy about the temptation to be partial. He told him: "Maintain these principles without bias" (v. 21). Biblical discipline cannot be sloppy. We can't remove one guy for adultery and then offer kid-glove treatment to another guy just because he is our friend. As painful as it is to remove a gifted leader from his or her position, it must be done to preserve the fear of the Lord.
3. The church will not thrive if discipline of leaders is neglected. Paul sternly warned Timothy about ordaining any church leader prematurely. He wrote: "Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others" (1 Tim. 5:22). In other words, leaders actually incur a strict judgment from God if they ordain a leader who does not meet biblical qualifications. If ordaining unapproved leaders becomes a habit, corruption will take root in the church and we will eventually face God's corrective judgment.
The Corinthian church was warned that the deceitfulness of sin would infect them all if they did not deal with the immorality in their midst (see 1 Cor. 5:7-13). John told the church in Thyatira that they would lose their influence because they tolerated false teaching that led to immorality (Rev. 2:20). Sin has sobering consequences.
We can't rewrite the rules. I pray that leaders in the independent sector of the church today will stop the monkey business and restore biblical order.
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma. To see the video clip of Jamal Bryant's "I'm Still the Man" sermon, click here.
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Dr. Who
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For contend4the8th: I appreciate your response to my last post, regardless of how ill-tempered your tone was. I think you are being somewhat presumptuous, however, in your implication that I and others "DID NOT seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit" and "just went along with it". Your juvenile remark "suckers", while well placed, only reinforces your bitterness toward the whole Lakeland Revival thing. However, it is not my intent to provoke you, but to in some degree concur with you. I will admit that I am not as discerning as I would like to be (and certainly not as much as you CLAIM to be) when it comes to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, but I try. We are told to judge all things. And even though some of us are not as tuned in as others, it may take the Holy Spirit a while to do this in us. I disagree with a lot of your viewpoints regarding the LR (no surprise there) based on your other postings, but I do encourage you to keep it up. You'll probably find out that your jar is made just as much of clay as mine is. So is Todd's, Rick's, and Lee's. |
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Globalgospel
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comparisons to King David? WHAT was the ONE sin David was punished for? Only ONE sin did the prophet bring to him of which David then said that "SINNERS PRAYER" of Psalms 51 (even as an example of modern day as to why 'catholic' REFORMERS should NEVER teach that the sinners prayer is not in the Bible and the evangelist of today should not be leading a person into)? There was ONLY ONE sin that "man" after "God's Own Heart" had committed (and it was NOT the sin of adultery, nor of fornication-as almost all those caught today in now want to claim they also are after God's Own Heart even as was David? Read your Bible's more carefully and see if you can come up with that ONE SIN which also then caused David the bloody aftermath (even having repented). |
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contend4thef8th
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For "the other" me me said, "biblical scholars have a voice, if they rightly divide the Word. I myself have spent many, many hours studying divorce and remarriage I myself have spent many, many hours studying divorce and remarriage and the bible as a whole does not say if you get divorced you must remain single." Oh, I almost squirted my milk all over the screen. You are joking of course, right? You're having a bit of fun? Er, right? Are you serious? Biblical scholars have a voice all right. With a phariseeic ring to it. And they do a good job of "dividing" the Word for us. Let's see, there are at least two major views of salvation (calvanism and armeniest) ripped from one (1) verse and there are nearly a half dozen views of the rapture. All by Christian scholars who claim they are rightly "dividing" the Word. Hmmm, could think of more but what I said should be enough. Anyway, that you studied hours upon hours "and the bible as a whole does not say if you get divorced you must remain single." Boy, you have special self-filtered glasses. Is Matthew 5:31-32 and 19:8-9 still in your bible? Matt. 5:31-32, 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness [FORNICATION is not marital unfaithfulness], causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.(NIV) Matt. 9:8-9, 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness [FORNICATION is not marital unfaithfulness], and marries another woman commits adultery."(NIV) Your precious scholars have retranslated the original meanings that OUR Saviour used. In the original language he used two words; fornication and adultery. Fornication is sexual sin between two engaged (betrothed) couples. You get the picture now, I hope. God's plan from the beginning was for couples who marry to stay together. But just like culture influenced men of God like Abraham and David to have more than one wife, so too our modern culture influences Christians to have more than one spouse. We may live in an age of grace, but Paul, speaking for God said we are not to be practicing sin because of it, hence, cheap grace. Or greasy grace if you like. It's not my job to convince you and if you have already made up your mind, then even God can't convince you of the truth. One prof I had at OBC told us to, "Never have your theology set." In other words don't be like many of the Jews who were hard headed that when Jesus came, they did not believe Him. I'm sure their bright scholars like Saul can see that those "Christians" are in biblical error. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For "the other" me me said, "biblical scholars have a voice, if they rightly divide the Word. I myself have spent many, many hours studying divorce and remarriage I myself have spent many, many hours studying divorce and remarriage and the bible as a whole does not say if you get divorced you must remain single." Oh, I almost squirted my milk all over the screen. You are joking of course, right? You're having a bit of fun? Er, right? Are you serious? Biblical scholars have a voice all right. With a phariseeic ring to it. And they do a good job of "dividing" the Word for us. Let's see, there are at least two major views of salvation (calvanism and armeniest) ripped from one (1) verse and there are nearly a half dozen views of the rapture. All by Christian scholars who claim they are rightly "dividing" the Word. Hmmm, could think of more but what I said should be enough. Anyway, that you studied hours upon hours "and the bible as a whole does not say if you get divorced you must remain single." Boy, you have special self-filtered glasses. Is Matthew 5:31-32 and 19:8-9 still in your bible? Matt. 5:31-32, 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness [FORNICATION is not marital unfaithfulness], causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.(NIV) Matt. 9:8-9, 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness [FORNICATION is not marital unfaithfulness], and marries another woman commits adultery."(NIV) Your precious scholars have retranslated the original meanings that OUR Saviour used. In the original language he used two words; fornication and adultery. Fornication is sexual sin between two engaged (betrothed) couples. You get the picture now, I hope. God's plan from the beginning was for couples who marry to stay together. But just like culture influenced men of God like Abraham and David to have more than one wife, so too our modern culture influences Christians to have more than one spouse. We may live in an age of grace, but Paul, speaking for God said we are not to be practicing sin because of it, hence, cheap grace. Or greasy grace if you like. It's not my job to convince you and if you have already made up your mind, then even God can't convince you of the truth. One prof I had at OBC told us to, "Never have your theology set." In other words don't be like many of the Jews who were hard headed that when Jesus came, they did not believe Him. I'm sure their bright scholars like Saul can see that those "Christians" are in biblical error. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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skeptic
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The absurdity of it all... As a recovering ‘post-charismatic, I am amazed at the carnival-turned-3-ring-circus Lakeland, Bentley & Joyner have developed into. It is apparent there are those convinced of Todd Bentley’s divine ministerial destiny & his special powers/anointment God bestowed upon him. They believe in Rick Joyner’s effective restoration oversight of their fallen hero. After viewing both pro-con websites & reading numerous posts, I have concluded that there are many people gung-ho about the fantastic world of the extreme prophetic/apostolic types. They have a deep desire to experience signs+wonders that are the claimed proof of heaven upon earth. They want their theological claims validated & the Shekinah Glory of God to overwhelm saint, sinner & skeptic alike to prove He is doing a ‘new thing’ today! They do want gold teeth. They do want gemstones falling from the sky. They do want angel feathers gently swirling down upon them. Glitter. Oil. Stigmata. Kick-in-the-stomach healings. All the strange manifestations that are meant to be unconventional because, well, God is not happy just being the miracle performing deity of the past. He is new & improved! A bit playful & just kooky enough to throw a manifestation curve ball now & then. I can accept the fact that there are numerous kooks for Jesus of every stripe peddling their version of Apocalypse, Armageddon, Anointing, Atonement, Apostles/Athanasian Creed, Augsburg Confession, Amillennialism, etc. I am convinced any attempt to agree on the important doctrinal issues really not possible. There cannot be civil agreement to disagree amicably in this very disparate grouping categorized as “The Body of Christ”. The lines are not only drawn, they are etched in foundational bedrock of every Christian faith expression that claims to be the most accurate one peddled. And the miracle of the internet displays it all in Technicolor & sound bites for the world to see (thank God!). J. Lee Grady now in a public finger-pointing war with Rick Joyner over the Lakeland+Bentley fiasco. I secretly smile about it, but realize it is just a glaring example of the wackiness associated with the uber-prophetic/apostolic camps. I appreciate the candor and/or exposure of the questionable stuff, but saddened by those machinations outsiders will certainly point too as just another example of Christian craziness. I don’t care anymore. Be a kook for Jesus. Go see your Miracle Max idol do his thing upon the stage at the next official outpouring. Send your hard earned dollars to the televangelist of your choice. Pay for the books, CDs, seminar/conference gigs, training & anointment appointments guaranteeing a front-row peek into the heavenlies. Just keep your holy retorts to yourself when the world shakes their head in mild amusement over your supra-natural antics supposedly God sourced. Is it any wonder they remain unconvinced of Christianity’s news? From their perspective it is anything but ‘good’. Bentley supporters unshaken in their conclusions about their miracle man & the Lakeland Outpouring. The Joyner faithful expressing similar patronage. No one seems too interested in how God’s reputation gets dragged through the mud when attempting to support the theological twists & turns taken to justify their claims. God is the real victim here, not the key players in these silly games. Lord have mercy… |
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me
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... Contend, biblical scholars have a voice, if they rightly divide the Word. I myself have spent many, many hours studying divorce and remarriage and the bible as a whole does not say if you get divorced you must remain single. There are times when remarriage is ok and acceptable. So I cringe when I hear you saying remarriage is a sin. It is not in certain cases. God is indeed the final word, not a biblical scholar. But some really good biblical scholars have their place in the body as teachers. The key is knowing the word yourself and the voice of the Spirit. The Spirit is our first teacher. I think I have made too many comments here so hopefully this is my last. The first time I saw Todd preach in Lakeland, warning buzzers went off in my spirit like crazy. I had no peace. I felt grieved. I posted these things on the web. I at times felt I was maybe emotional but I knew it was God telling me this TB was not of him. He is not a brother, I think. I think he is either very very much in the flesh, lying and so forth, or he could be in the occult and sent to the body to cause havoc. I am not sure which. But I do know he has lied about many things for over a decade, and those lies went uncontested by Arnot and other prominents. He lied his way to the top. But once he got there, God bottomed him. Our God is into protecting His sheep, not letting them be devoured by false shepherds. Make no mistake about it, Todd is a false brother. Either that or he someone bound by lies and needs deliverance from being a pathological liar. As for Shonnah, she was in the scam with Todd. She lied too. Their marriage crumbled because they were like Ananias and Sapphira, dishonest before the Lord and the church. They are lucky they are both still alive. Adultery is an issue here with TB, but I would like Rick Joyner to answer these lies of TB: 1. Emma 2. Supernatural character replaced by angels bringing supernatural character, and why that didn't work for Todd. Remember, Todd said some big angels came to him and put supernatural character into him. So then why didn't that work if that really happened? Hogwash... 3. Gold dust, diamond dust, and gem dust falling when Fresh Fire ministers ministers. 4. Kicking a cancer patient in the stomach. 5. Paul's little cabin in heaven. 6. Abraham helping Paul write Hebrews. 7. Him selling miracle handkerchiefs. 8. Him saying when the glory falls in church people should give their money to the preacher. 9. Being translated to Africa, Europe and back in time all in one day. LIES!!! Rick Joyner address these lies!!! Lee Grady, please make Rick Joyner address these lies!!! They are the root of this whole fiasco!!! He must address these lies! Please! |
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justdrew
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... I have been thinking about this for a while now and i can't help thinking that there is a much bigger picture here unfolding, What happened to Todd was just the symptoms and a "cause and effect" of what has been "brewing" for a while. Is it not possible that we have become sin numb and our hearts become so seared that we are at a place where we do not have any strong discernment to what the Devil is doing or what is right and wrong, Is it possible that we are using Grace as a scapegoat for our sinful nature in order to not have to “ Be Holy as He is Holy “ I am not playing down Grace here but something is wrong when there seems to be little or no concern for the consequences or effects of sinning, Make no mistake David was forgiven for his actions BUT there were disastrous consequences for his action, for him personally and for the House of David. I hear almost daily of Christian couples getting divorced ….. Something is WRONG …. Very wrong So I believe we need to take our eyes off the Todd affair and seek God for answers, because Christian families are crumbling before our eyes, and the question I would ask is why is it so easy for Christian men and woman to so flippantly chuck their marriages aside? Is it because our leaders seem to justify it in some way? Do we just have no regard for the covenant vows we say before God and man? If our understanding of Grace negates our understanding of the Fear of God then we do Not understand Grace as God intended. Lee’s right to ask and challenge things as they are at the moment, because if we carry on the same path we are on at present we are heading for more chaos and disaster |
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contend4thef8th
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For Dr. Who Dr. Who said, "I saw MANY of the Lakeland Revival meetings on God TV. Like so many, I was not sure what to make of it, but was willing to be open to what God wanted to do in this hour." And that is the problem today. So many , "...not sure what to make of it, but was willing to be open to what God wanted to do... " DID NOT seek the Holy Spirit's guidance regarding the Lakeland Revival (LR). Just went along with it because it just might be God's doing. Suckers. Meanwhile, others discerned something was wrong and got shouted down and made to feel like the "devil's advocate" in that matter. SHAME. truly, as things progress, there will only be a very small remnant left in the end. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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My response to "me" Me said, "most biblical scholars today agree that divorced Christians are allowed to remarry if it is in God's will and they have reason like adultery, desertion or abuse. God is merciful to the divorced and yes, if you are married you should stay that way for life. but adultery and other things do happen. shonnah bentley is now free because todd cheated on her and has remarried. God doesn't hold her to singlehood now. if you study the entire word you will see this is true. marriage is forever but humans happen. there is remarriage in the bible and it is allowable for certain reasons." So, biblical scholars have the last word. Not Jesus or Paul but what the "scholar" says. Smacks of Phariseeism. It's what the scholars (Pharisees) say that count not the written word itself. Scholars are our Pharisees, so called godly men NOT WALKING in the Spirit of truth. I'll give you an example. When at Bible College, OBC, I bought a commentary, of which, was primarily what the school was shilling. In the section regarding Spiritual gifts, the commentator stated, "All the gifts are finished but love." Huh? In the final analysis, despite their schooling a bible scholar interprets as he is influenced and not because he interprets the Word literally. Heck, Paul was the best scholar of his time, and still is, yet he was killing Christians and having them jailed and/or whipped before his conversion. Calvin tried in enforce biblical beliefs at the end of a sword using an army, even killing Christians who disagreed with him. Luther, wrote a work against the Jews and even he too killed Christians that disagreed with him. All these guys had better resources than modern scholars because some works have disappeared over the last 500-2000+ years. God wrote the bible for the common man, not the scholar. And He gave us his Holy Spirit to teach and guide us. He expects us NOT the scholars, to read and understand His Word and OBEY IT. At OBC, my teacher Rev. James Vold said, regarding interpretating the bible, "If the first sense makes common sense, don't go looking for non-sense." I would trust a bible scholar as far as I could throw a horse. When judgment day comes for Christians, and there is one different from the world's judgment, God's going to ask us, "What did you do with the talents and gifting I gave you?" What's the answer going to be? "I followed your Word to the best of my ability and used my talents and gifting according to what our scholars said." Or will it be this, "I made full use of Your talents and gifting and spread the Word of Jesus and obedience to the world." This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Dr. Who
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Self-Righteousness I want to say that I would hope that my concern for how this whole matter with Todd Bentley being handled by Rick Joyner and his staff is not perceived as self-righteousness. I think most of us know that our righteousness is as filthy rags, but only His righteousness is what we need to walk in a manner worthy of our calling. However, this does not preclude what Lee has outlined for us. We have all experience his grace and love if we have accepted Him. I love brother Todd Bentley too and sincerely want to see him healed and restored. I saw MANY of the Lakeland Revival meetings on God TV. Like so many, I was not sure what to make of it, but was willing to be open to what God wanted to do in this hour. I look back at the LR as a thing that God did, not Todd Bentley. God dealt(and is still dealing) with Todd. I believe he deserves healing grace and restoration. I also believe he deserves a second chance. No...I do not believe that he should be in leadership at this time....but I do believe that with help from the Lord and Rick et. al, he will be restored....as a believer should be. God may open the door again later for a much more broken and transparent Todd Bentley to again pour out God's fire. This is my prayer. I would, however, challenge anyone who would agree with Rick on this whole "self-righteousness" schtick and ask them to check their heart to make sure they are not "towing the party line" and believing this just because Rick said it. For him who has ears to hear........ |
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me
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... contend, most biblical scholars today agree that divorced Christians are allowed to remarry if it is in God's will and they have reason like adultery, desertion or abuse. God is merciful to the divorced and yes, if you are married you should stay that way for life. but adultery and other things do happen. shonnah bentley is now free because todd cheated on her and has remarried. God doesn't hold her to singlehood now. if you study the entire word you will see this is true. marriage is forever but humans happen. there is remarriage in the bible and it is allowable for certain reasons. as for tb, his adultery and remarriage, which were both wrong, are just the icing on the devil's food cake. his lies about emma, gold dust, and other nonsense caught up with him after over a decade and God pulled him down. he fell because of pride and lies. for anyone to restore him back to lying in the pulpit is just plain nuts. rick joyner's recent video calls Grady self righteous and devilishly critical. i personally don't see any self righteousness in this article or the greasy article. i think they were both spot on. God does not want tb back in the pulpit because tb has never repented for his lies, fabrications, and self-will. he is not a man of character or humility.. if he really loved God he would get a job and work. not put the body of Christ through this turmoil. rick j is putting ministry above truth and does not have a handle on the word or the spirit. he needs to be quiet and make tb get a job for at least five years. no youtube videos or pulpit. just repentance and repentance and humility and focus on knowing God. i personally wonder if the guy is even saved. i know he is a big liar and very self-willed. he is a con man and if he is saved, he needs to work and live quietly as God deals with his flesh. he is not ready for ministry according to the word or common sense. even Emma agrees with me. she told me so last night when God translated me to Paul's cabin in heaven. |
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contend4thef8th
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For Ashleigh.... Ashleigh said, "It seems barely anyone even knows the facts about what has happened in this situation. If many of you were in the same situation, many of you would have succumbed to the same temptation to quit fighting for the marriage to work." Ash, I stopped reading after this line. Sorry. But it clearly shows you are ignorant of God's Word about the situation. It's not just about TB's excuse for the divorce. But his adultery issues (twice), being a bigamist (2 wives), drunkenness (repeatedly), lying (often), etc. Godly men do not participate in such. It's all about godly character, of which, TB has none. Whatever his excuses or reason for leaving the first marriage, he SHOULD NOT have remarried, hence, defying Jesus' commandment. And saying sorry is not enough, TB commits adultery every time he and Jessa have sex. It's an ongoing sin not covered by forgiveness and adulterers DO NOT go to heaven. Period. Yes, that includes every Christian who remarried while their "ex" was still alive. TB does not WANT restoration and discipline. But he needs to, yet he has defied even RJ and married Jessa while under RJ's "restoration process." TB needs "spanking" for being a bad boy in the body of Christ. In other words Hebrews 12: 5-8. TB DOES NOT want to go through that. Restoration includes discipline. RJ is not really doing it. Anointing, calling and gifting does not prove one has God's approval (all Christians are anointed, called and gifted). It is character and obedience that counts. In a recent OpenHeaven email I got David Ryser has this to say, "I've discovered in this season of my life that God is far more concerned with the quality of my character than He is in my anointing, calling, and gifting. Although we highly esteem anointing, calling, and gifting--and promote and exalt people based upon these--God does not regard these as highly as character (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)..." He goes on further to state, "Why does God discipline His children? He does so for the same reason that an earthly father disciplines his children. The purpose of discipline is to develop character in the child." So TB rejects true discipline from God, thus making him a spiritual bastard (Hebrews 12:8) in the kingdom. Him and Jenna both. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For agn007 Agn007 said, "...you played the hypocrite and showed partiality by naming Jamal Bryant and his wife Gizelle and chose to identify the other one as a dynamic preacher from the southeast. If you are going to name names then name everyone." I gotta agree there. It's not fair and smacks of favoritism for one over the other. Maybe Lee did not intend it that way, but that is the way we see it. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For pastorchrisbyrd pastorchrisbyrd said, "However, there is no thorough case study to draw from in the Bible." There may be no solid case study but the Bible teaches how to confront a sinning brother. Sadly, almost no church does so. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For globalgospel Anyone calling themselves Christian yet actively sinning, will not make it to heaven at all. That is clearly what God's Word teaches. As for the kingdom of God, Jesus says it is here. So, are you going to disagree with Jesus? |
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halo
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'Overseer' not 'Leader'! Thanks Lee. But you made one significant mistake. Paul's list was not for 'leaders' but specifically for the office of an 'overseer'. That makes a huge difference to what Todd can and cannot do. For the function of an overseer (+why it is same as 'elder') see John Piper's 4 part seminar: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Seminars/ |
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praisehim
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re:confusion in the house of the Lord. (correction) confusion in the house of the Lord... I just want to comment in regards to the battle between grace and righteousness that these two men are in. I respect both equally. But our loyalty must be with God. So that we will not be destroyed by confusion. I myself am struggling to regain ground that was stolen from my life. But when I read of how these powerful mature men have fallen. (Tims and Bryant) It makes me sad...what chance do I have of walking upright again? If the enemy keeps putting his foot out in front of you? Everytime a conflict arises we are so quick to judge. And call our brothers devils. I think God just wants us to focus on cleaning the inside of our own cup. So we can walk in humility and fear of the Lord. At this point in my life I am fearful to say anything judgemental about anyone if it is not from the right spirit. I will be chastised by God to avoid an attack fom the devil. This is why he chastises us to keep us safe from the traps of the enemy. I will pray for both of these men. God will bring understanding and teach us his ways. And all those like myself who have fallen will be restored and walk in a better way than before. I think people do need more time to be restored. Or they will fall again. Some have been crushed by satan. And cannot find healing in some churches. They should not get up too quickly. Because he will hit you in the same places that he hit you before. God Bless! |
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praisehim
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run to help our brothers... I want to comment on Todd Benley and his ex-wife and kids. Since the whole issue seems to be surrounding Todd. Not that my comments are important or inspired by God. But I did have a thought go through my mind when I read how others were angry over the fact that Todd was being restored and not his family.. Maybe God will inspire those who are angry to allow righteous anger to arise. And go help his ex- and kids....while others are helping Todd. His ex does need to know the body of Christ supports her and her kids also. Without getting involved by choosing sides.. Their issues were between them and God. And the people around them they have to be accountable to. They don't have to be accountable to me. God is our vendicator. It is so easy when you have been wounded to fall into victimization...but we still need to show compassion if we are in a position to do so..God Bless! |
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praisehim
said:
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confusion in the house of the Lord... I just want to comment in regards to the battle between grace and righteousness that these two men are in. I respect both equally. But our loyalty must be with God. So that we will not be destroyed by confusion. I myself am struggling to regain ground that was stolen from my life. But when I read of how these powerful mature men have fallen. It makes me sad...what chance do I have of walking upright again? If the enemy keeps putting his foot out in front of you? Everytime a conflict arises we are so quick to judge. And call our brothers devils. I think God just wants us to focus on cleaning the inside of our own cup. So we can walk in humility and fear of the Lord. At this point in my life I am fearful to say anything judgemental about anyone if it is not from the right spirit. I will be chastised by God to avoid an attack fom the devil. This is why he chastises us to keep us safe from the traps of the enemy. I will pray for both of these men. God will bring understanding and teach us his ways. And all those like myself who have fallen will be restored and walk in a better way than before. I think people do need more time to be restored. Or they will fall again. Some have been crushed by satan. And cannot find healing in some churches. They should not get up too quickly. Because he will hit you in the same places that he hit you before. God Bless! |
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me
said:
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... I would also like to say regarding the last post that it says they accept speaking engagements as the Lord leads but then they say they take same day fly in and out engagments above others. Double talk. |
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me
said:
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Ricky Joyner has to fly first class when traveling but other members of his team coach: requirement of Rick Rick is the big cheese and expects to be treated as big cheese. Here's some from his website about how he must fly coach to engagements but his companion can fly coach. How is this servanthood? It is not. Saying he must fly first class but others on his team will fly coach and don't deserve first class like he does is just arrogant. The only financial commitment that we require is for payment of our travel expenses in advance for our team member and companion, and that accommodations, meals, local travel, etc. for the team also be paid by the hosts. We do not require a specific honorarium. We believe all ministry is a partnership of faith between our team members and the hosting group. We only ask that love offerings be received for our team members. Our expenses for travel are generally as follows: A. For teams traveling by airlines, unless otherwise specified by our hosts, we seek the lowest coach fares for guaranteed seats. For International travel, we ask that Business Class seating be provided for Rick Joyner, however his companion can fly coach. B. Expenses for our ministry plane when used are either $2.00/mile or $1.00/mile depending on the plane used computed on a round trip, straight-line basis (this is approximately ½ the retail charter rate for our aircraft). Thank you for your interest in our ministry. Please understand that if your request for ministry departs significantly from the parameters listed, we can only accept it with a very specific leading from the Lord. After we receive the completed Ministry Request Form, it will be submitted to our Leadership Team for prayerful consideration. You will be notified of our decision as soon as we have an answer. For the Ministry of Rick Joyner: Because of Rick’s ministry responsibilities and his need to spend large amounts of time alone with the Lord, he must further restrict the kinds of ministry engagements he can accept. If you are requesting his ministry, please consider the following: I. He is far more likely to take meetings that enable him to fly in and out on the same day, or in the shortest time possible. Note: If you are requesting his ministry for more than one meeting, please schedule his ministry in the evening on one day and in the morning on the next day, etc.) II. For engagements that require him to stay longer, he will most likely need to remain in his hotel room to study, pray, or work when he is not speaking. Please guard his privacy during this time. III. When possible, Rick likes to meet with local church leaders and others who are instrumental in the local ministry, but please do not schedule other engagements or personal meetings for him without his prior approval. IV. Please do not allow Rick’s room number to become public knowledge, as he is often disturbed repeatedly (even in the middle of the night) when this happens. V. Please have all calls to Rick’s room blocked except for those from his family, office, and the leaders of the conference or meeting. Thank you for your understanding in these matters. |
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Mooseman
said:
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Say hello to my little friend! Lee . . . I agree with everything that you wrote in your latest blog, but what baffles me is that the people to whom you answer allowed you to make this post. Sometimes I get the idea that they spend their lives on the Charismatic Bandwagon of the moment. Never feeling the need to ever say with authenticity . . . . "We supported ______________ and in retrospect we made a mistake." Nope . . . whatever is popular today is fine and whenever they think that God has changed his flavor of Kool-aid to another brand they seem all too eager to drink it without any regard. You must surely face dark lonely days there in your office when you take on Greedy Lying Prosperity Preachers one minute, Revival movements with no integrity for their claims the next and then later you are faced with telling the truth about arrogant "Big Time Ministers" who spend more time in bed with other women than they do their own wives. Our biggest problem as readers is that over the past few years there have been so many "Big Time" preachers bed hopping one week and then standing in the pulpit the next, most of us are unable to determine which arrogant guy you writing about. Pentecostals and Charismatic’s are not very good at policing ourselves . . . thanks for your voice. Thank God for a man who is willing to speak about all the stinking elephants in the room. |
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ryanlee09
said:
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... I agree with the statement that in order to keep the FEAR OF THE LORD PRESERVED WE MUST REMOVED FOR A SEASON!!! TO GET HEALED AMEN |
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woody
said:
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it ani't over till the fat lady sings! It is on our heads to be alert, to pray for wisdom with discernment, to not condemn, TO LOVE AND TO BE OBEDIENT TO THE FATHER. If we truely want to be His, it is incumbent on us to keep His commands and that goes for ALL leadership . To do less is not of God. Christ died for our sins, but that does not mean we are to be licentiousness and deaf and dumb. Did He not tell us that we are to seek Him all humility, forsaking pride of self, dying to our flesh? |
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peter christian
said:
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God protect us from self-righteousness God bless you dear brother Lee, may the Spirit of our Lord keep speaking boldly through you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Francisogar
said:
snowbird2020
said:
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NOT ANOINTED Excuse me but you must be confused when you say he is anointed...God does not anoint falsehood. I have never once met anyone who pretended to serve God and have a True anointing from the Holy Spirit. If his character is corrupt then have no fear, The spirit that drives him is one he has been turned over to. Remember that scripture teaches you can believe a lie and be damned.2 thess.2:11. Just because a minister is popular means nothing. Hitler was popular, but by all the wrong people and for all the wrong reasons. Please do not confuse what he bears as false armor to be anything near a holy anointing from God. |
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JAird
said:
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When can we move on? Everybody is still talking about Todd. Please move on for some of us we will watch and observe and for others the issue is like a rabid dog with a bone! Because we are to judge a man by his fruits! I wonder what fruit, let alone fruits, have been born out of all that has been said and done. The issue still remains that there are 2 types of people will either suck on the side of "we must love, grace, and remember mercy" and on the other side are those who chew the fat for instant judgment. WHERE IS THE BALANCE OF LOVE AND JUSTICE! Jesus says quite clearly and categorically states in Matthew 7 that we are to make wise and proper judgment without any hypocrisy of our own involved in it. If we truly love someone we will discipline that person as this is something the Father does for us as He discipline those whom He loves. The problem comes when we stand there and say - God is gracious, God is good, God is righteous but we fact to state that God is HOLY, God is faithful as He will reward men according to their deeds, God is the righteous judge and He is the true witness. Listen, i am not barking this to people who do not know the scripture but to people who know the scripture but divide it on separate systems of their belief in God. At the end of the day, we are to stop being saps that just say 'oh, there, there, its gonna be ok!" and say "listen you know what you did is wrong will acknowledge the sin and repent of it? If so step down, seek restoration, healing and forgiveness but if not scripture clearly states that we are to excommunicate or shun from the body for a season!" (Matt 18:15-20; John 7:24; 1 Cor. 2:14-16, 5:1-6:20; Romans 16:17; 1 Tim. 5:20; 2 Tim 4:2). In order to prevail as good godly leaders you have to make judgment calls but these calls are to be founded in love and mercy with the aspect of healing and restoration at the end of it all. We can defer our responsibilities as Christians but we must do all that do and say in the 'Love of God'. Even Paul states that we are to individual exam ourselves to see if we are even in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5) and this is done without any impartiality, self righteousness or self justification. So come on folks let us not be divided on the issue but stand together as one on the entirety of God's Word and do what He has called us to do and not avoid the issues that are washed over by mediocrity, complacency and compromise. Agape and Shalom |
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eyes2c
said:
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Wolves in sheeps clothing This is more evidence of the wheat growing along with the tares. Many false leaders abound today and they all have smiles on their faces. So many innocent sheep have been scattered and many never return to another church again because of unrepentant sinful leaders in the church. When one hurts, we all hurt and right now we're black and blue in the pew. |
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Ashleigh
said:
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Helpful Out of a soft heart I'm asking all of you to read this slowly... and please, see my heart. Concerning many of the comments we need to actually make all these concerns helpful. Because as someone who is somewhat close to this situation with Todd Bentley, all the comments written here are not helpful but instead just make me feel like this is a popularity contest with Lee winning because you're on "his side". ... Which in reality, we are all on the same side. We are the body of Christ. If you hurt your arm, you just hurt yourself. And following this analogy I'm sure your thinking "well, if my arm was gangrene I'd cut it off." The only problem with this is that before you cut it off, or do a dangerous surgery to it, you need to make sure that you know that it is in need of it. Do you know what saddens me most about what many of you are writing following Lee's message about Todd Bentley-- It seems barely anyone even knows the facts about what has happened in this situation. Lee, even you are not stating many of the facts about what has happened (or you dont know.. but if you don't know, then there needs to be a higher demand at Charisma for facts before writing a story). Many of you are on board with this angry message (and you know what, you should be angry about sin in the pulpit. You should be angry about leaders not holding proper standards), but step back for a second and look at what the whole "statement" you are making with your comments. You're basically portraying a self-righteous, inability to be mistaken persona through these comments. They don't make me want to listen to you. Now because the Lord has taught me this in my life, I realize I need to listen to people even if I don't like how they are saying what they're saying, because who knows, they may be right... They may not be saying it in a helpful manner, but they may be right. So I need to listen and pray. The problem is a few years ago I wasn't like this. I would've just blasted back out of emotion of the fact that many don't know the actual facts that they are so angrily commenting about. I would've been ticked and shot back viciously at you considering you to be doing Satans work. But you know what, those times when I did that, I was wrong. It didn't help anyone. It didn't encourage anyone to stop and think about what I was saying. And thats how many people are reading these comments- the lack of care is provoking them to not hear any of the good things you may say. I believe there are fewer times for this explosive anger than we think. I'm sure God looks for us to be ,as His word says, "slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to listen", more often. He is gracious. He is patient. He is just. He is righteous. He is all these things. We must use them all and see what the end result turns out to be. But lets not jump to conclusions, because if you're wrong... well, that snowball may be too big for you to stop at that point. And in this case, it is. We need to all pray together for each other, because we are ONE body. One. |
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Trudy
said:
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Rev I have just one comment to your article - AMEN!!! I love the Bible, I love Father, Son and Holy Ghost - but it sure is a "stretch" to love some of those now in a position of leadership. |
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Azurejas
said:
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No more monkey business in the ministry There is no doubt that this topic will draw many interests. I believe Lee's intention was to enlighten the bodies of Christ based on scriptural truth and not to pass judgment. God loves sinners and hates sin. May we choose mercy over judgment. Let our conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt so that we may know how to answer anyone. Word of God is the spiritual character of Jesus who is perfect and does not compromise. He hates divorce period. Those in spiritual authority must be steadfast to uphold this truth and vigilant not to set new platform against it. Shalom |
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Javanut
said:
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It's all about the money Todd Bentley is a marketable item. He draws crowds. Therefore Todd Bentley will be back. Integrity, honor, decency doesn't mean anything - it's all about crowds, money and jets. I'm sorry if you think any of this has anything to do with the bible or true Christianity. In the bible, repentance comes before forgiveness and as of yet, I haven't seen any of the so-called "prophets" on stage with Bentley Jun 23rd, 2008 repent of their false prophecies. Kudos to you Grady for standing up and telling it like it is! We're behind you! |
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JAird
said:
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Why am I not surprised! Any man or woman who stands behind the pulpit and twists the word of God to suit their own needs or justify there sin is in need of the right foot of fellowship. I know that not one one of us is perfect but we are called by Christ to endure the process of perfection (Mt.5:48). But the problem comes when we judge the Bible according to our standards and not our standards according to the Bible. This is where compromise, complacency and coldness toward God and His word begins to set in and take root. This same compromising, complacency and coldness is also reflected to those closest to us. Where we point the finger of blame at everyone else instead of taking responsibility for our own decisions and actions. The problem comes when we begin to make a righteous judgment according to Scripture that people respond in very harsh with a pure misunderstanding and misinterpretation of scriptural judgment. To defer judgment on this side of life is to encounter it in the next all because we say 'don't judge'. For goodness sake we can make a clear judgment as long as it is not based on our standards and emotions but on the clear standards as set forth in Scripture! Nevertheless, I am not surprised any more because there are those who put in leadership have chosen to wink at sin, shuffle their feet under the table of comprise, and sleep in the bed of compromise. And as a result look at the state of the church as it sends out an unholy message of broken values and a complete demeaning of scriptural ethics. Lee keep up the good work! Continue to do what is righteous and speak that which is the truth and reality. |
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brorich1
said:
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Stop the monkey business in church I listened to the reverend's message. To compare himself to King David is an abomination. King David's ministry was never the same after his indiscretions. He didn't get to build the temple. This guy is an abomination to Christianity. Talk about pride, that he doesn't have to be restored, that he was already restored by the Lord. He's an embarassment. |
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BettyLou
said:
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No More Monkey Business in the Ministry While I, in no way, condone the actions of Jamal Bryant, I must say that I feel the article is some-what biased. Why do you chose to name Jamal Bryant and not the other minister and his wife from the Southeast? In all fairness, you should either name all ministers in your article or do not name any of them. Regardless of what is said from a pulpit by a minister that has fallen, and refuses or declines any type of restoration process, time will surely expose him. His 'fruit' will either continue to grow and florish or begin to wither and die on the vine. Time will surely expose him. |
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J. Scot Brien
said:
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Spot On Grady, you're spot on with your article. However, we all need to remember that the compromise in the pulpit is merely a reflection of the compromise in the congregation. And please, respect Grady's choice to leave the pastor nameless. This is about fostering righteousness, not pointing fingers. |
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Mikeq
said:
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onlytruth Lee I was so glad to see that you did not break down nor bow down, to those intimidation pressure tactics that Rick Joyner was trying to use on you as he has others. Isn’t this the same pressure tactics Jezebel used to scare people. Wasn’t Rick trying to elevate him self by saying that you or anyone like you that do not have the credentials to question him or anyone like him even if the scripture say so. Are they above scripture and the law now because of success, status, or position. They made the same mistakes at Lake Land when it was clear to many in the body with out credentials or big ministries that Todd was in sin and in error. Joyner and his team of supper apostles didn’t want anyone to question them back then when Bentley was in obvious error to us nobodies who could see and discern clearly. Rick Joyner and his team of super apostles made that clear on TV and by letter at Lake Land that they can not and will be judged for what they do by little people like us or even little Lee Grady now. Isn’t this the same thing the Pharisee’s and religious leaders were saying to Jesus disciples in order to belittle and defame them and in order to elevate them selves and their righteousness? Isn’t this the same lording over your authority Jesus condemned when he told his disciples to not lord their authority over anyone like the Gentiles did. Did the apostle Paul ever use his credentials or ministry success to bring believers under submission of his ministry or authority? Paul mentioned his credentials but used them quite different than Rick Joyner does. I pray that Rick Joyner humble him self and repent and ask you to forgive him from his heart. I’ll lay down my life with you anytime on this Lee for I am a man of no reputation, no credentials, no fame, and no status. I have nothing to lose because I died to all that stuff. All I have is Jesus and all I will ever need and want is Jesus. God bless you Lee for your boldness in truth on this one. |
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Ron McGatlin
said:
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Sour Wine In A Rotten Wineskin God help us to become a pure and holy people. I wonder if Rick will be available to help Todd with his next divorce. Is there anyone besides me that doubts this marriage will last? |
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servantde
said:
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Moral Failures of Spiritual Leaders What do we tell the people in our communities that we are trying to reach when they find out about the moral failulre of another Spiritual Leaders? I know what the answer is to this question. However, this is one more black eye to Christianity and the Evangelical community. No wonder we have people walking away from the church. It is high time to nip this problem in the bud. It is time for true Christians to stand up and require Spiritual purity at all times from their Spiritual Leader. No wonder the world is laughing at the church Community. We all need to pray for our spiritual leaders. |
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Dr. Who
said:
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Line in the sand... We all know this is article is partly aimed at Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley too. Lee is not saying anything that most of us in the Pentacostal and Charismatic movement have not been taught before. Problem's been that most leaders in the church have been too much of a patsy to heed it. It is easy to rationalize, justify, and over-complicate a leader's "sin" situation compared to the simple truths. I do not believe that what Lee has stated is legalism....but the establishment of boundaries(Dobson would be proud). There needs to be accountability in leadership. Paul the Apostle stated that he did not wish for many to be leaders since it was a formidible calling. God will hold leaders accountable to a higher standard that the average joe. We all know this. We all expect this. Leaders need to walk in this. If leaders will not hold leaders accountable in the church, then they may expect the people to hold them accountable....pretty much like the French people held Louis XIV accountable(Can anyone say "Storm the Bastille?!"). Leaders today don't seem too concerned about a genuine reputation, but rather the "perception" of a good reputation among the body. This is how the world system operates....and look at the economy now. Polished, clean cups....on the outside. The best way we as the body can hold leaders accountable is to 1) pray for them, and 2) withhold your money from their ministry! You might find prayer the harder item to render. |
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anthony
said:
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... A very good article Lee,thanks for your boldness in confronting the issue.That articles of this nature are found to be neccessay is sad indeed may God have mercy on His Church. What is the answer? I find myself weeping once again as i think about this.God we are so sorry that it has got like this............. Whats the point? What do i tell my family members? Come and see what i have held so precious for 40 years but don't look too close or you may mistake it for a cheap tv soap opera. |
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JAR
said:
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Zachary Tims I am sure Zachary Tims in Orlando is the pastor that Lee was referring to in the southeast. He had an affair overseas with a stripper. Someone found out and confronted him. He wasn't going to admit to it until they said they had video proof of them together and would go public. He did admit to it and backed off of preaching for maybe 3 months then said he was ready to return to the pulpit. Many people did leave but he still as far as I know has a large church. He never missed a beat with being on TBN and tv and the money machine continues on. |
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Lori Tucker
said:
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... "If Paul demanded character of his leaders, it stands to reason that those who fail in any of these areas should be removed from office—at least until they regain the character quality after a time of rehabilitation." Where does it say that? So if a pastor of one wife leaves her for another wife, he is supposed to take a "time out" and go right back to his same position???? I hardly think so. Yes, restore the brother to the fellowship of the body ONCE HE HAS REPENTED. That doesn't mean he is still qualified to assume the same position. He forfiets that with his action. It's called consequences of sin. |
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saucrmin
said:
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Amen!!! It is time out for foolishness! The word of God is CLEAR God bless you Brother Grady you are in my prayers! God is not happy with some of the leaders in the body of Christ! This one in particular- Bro Jamal Bryant. I can not even call him a Bishop...he needs to be strip of his title!!! I am praying for you also Bro Bryant. |
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Rev. Wanda Harris
said:
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... Amen Lee! I am so tired of witnessing the innocent judged as guilty, and the guilty judged as innocent. It's time to start to doing the right thing just for the sake of doing the right thing - even when we don't FEEL like it. God said, "Be holy, for I am holy." |
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IfNot4Him
said:
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Re: Just be fair I agree with agn007. WHY name one man and not the other? Far better to have revealed both, or concealed both. It has the appearance of you, too, trying to cover up for a friend. You cannot do these things halfway and expect to maintain a reputation for integrity, brother. |
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agn007
said:
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Just be Fair Mr. Grady whereas I agree with the premise of your article that ministry is almost becoming a joke with the lack of integrity and accountable where gifting is more important than character. I have to take issue with you in that you played the hypocrite and showed partiality by naming Jamal Bryant and his wife Gizelle and chose to identify the other one as a dynamic preacher from the southeast. If you are going to name names then name everyone. I know you know who this dynamic preacher is. His sin is probably public knowledge by now. I hope race did not place a part in the way you presented the preachers in this article. But I have my doubts. Mr. Grady you write some very thought provoking articles. I just ask that you be fair and unbiased. |
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justdrew
said:
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... The win "friends" part was for all his acusers, it is about time things were brought to the light, the "foundation" of our faith has to be made from a solid belief and sound doctine, with a much clearer understanding of our loving Father as GOD and FATHER |
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tclark
said:
pastorchrisbyrd said:Most agree that godly discipline must be applied to gross malfeasance. Scripture makes this clear. However, there is no thorough case study to draw from in the Bible. Much like church government, we have no specific pattern to follow. There's 1 Corinthians 5, which Lee referenced above. This seems to me to be both a very thorough case study and pattern to follow, and very applicable to the situations we have been seeing lately. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5) |
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tclark
said:
justdrew said:not the best way to " win "friends" and infuence people , but its time ! Oh I don't know; he's influencing me. :-) _ I've actually been thinking along these lines for a long time, but keeping it to myself, and my inner circle of friends. Seeing Lee's boldness has made me bolder. I guess this is an application of Philippians 1:14, but on a less severe scale. God forbid that someone has to get thrown in jail before we get bold to speak the word! |
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jbsthomas
said:
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A word of encouragement Lee, I thank the Lord for graciously providing the charismatic church with clear Scripture-honoring voices including yours on the issue of discipline and restoration of leaders. Your speaking the truth of God's Word exposes the error of the above situations, and you have resolutely done the same in the case of Todd Bentley. Thank you. May the Lord continue to grant you grace to be faithful even when, in the case of Todd, many Christian leaders are calling being faithful to Scripture "judging" and in this way try to shut the mouths of those like yourself who are trying to bring the church to Scriptural sanity. I and our other church leaders are praying for you. May biblical restoration itself be restored. |
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pastorchrisbyrd
said:
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Traditions of Men Most agree that godly discipline must be applied to gross malfeasance. Scripture makes this clear. However, there is no thorough case study to draw from in the Bible. Therefore, we must draw to some degree on what Paul said to the Thessalonians, ". . . stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle." Much like church government, we have no specific pattern to follow. We do have statutes, testimonies and precepts to draw from. Maybe it is time for leaders in our "movement" to convene and discuss in generalities the complexities of this process called restoration. |
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JAR
said:
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re:monkey business! Amen you are right on again Lee! Also concerning the pastor you mentioned he was ticked off when people complained about what he did and his stepping back into the pulpit within a couple of months. Basically telling them to get over it. I used to watch this pastor and will not again. He is a disgrace and once again there are still people following him like dumb, blind sheep and he is on TBN all the time. |
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justdrew
said:
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... Yet again Lee, you re on track .... not the best way to " win "friends" and infuence people , but its time ! |
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Globalgospel
said:
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Doctrine of Balaam Bet anyone a dollar to a donut the congregation here was made up of people who believe in the doctrine that a "Christian" will not stand in any Great White Throne Judgment, but will stand ONLY in the Judgment Seating of the Anointed. That a "Christian" (including their leaders) can ONLY loose their rewards, and NOT their salvation? That the Doctrine of Balaam lives on today especially in the "Kingdom HERE now" or "Kingdom now, but not yet HERE" movements... |
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