March 10, 2009 -- Todd Bentley, who became well-known for leading the Lakeland Outpouring until he stepped down after announcing he was divorcing his wife, Shonnah, has remarried.
He has also entered into a restoration process led by MorningStar Ministries founder Rick Joyner, it was announced Monday.
Joyner said Bentley and his new wife, Jessa, married "several weeks ago" and have moved to Fort Mill, S.C., where MorningStar is based. Jack Deere of Wellspring Church in Texas and Bill Johnson of Bethel Church in California will assist Joyner in overseeing Bentley's restoration process.
"There were failures; there were mistakes-I want to be absolutely sure he sees them, understands them," Joyner told Charisma. "I want to see that that gate is shut, that this is not going to happen again.
"I'm not in the business of trying to perfect anyone," he added. "I'm not going to ask him to be perfect, but there are a lot of issues, and they're valid. ... He is not pushing for ministry or anything; he is trying to get his life right."
Bentley had led revival meetings in Lakeland, Fla., for nearly four months when he suddenly stepped down from public ministry in August after informing staff members that he and his wife, Shonnah, were separating.
His Fresh Fire Ministries (FFM) board, based in British Columbia, later announced that Bentley had confessed to an inappropriate relationship with a female staff member and a senior board member said Bentley's alcohol consumption had "crossed the line."
Joyner said Bentley and his new wife admit that their relationship was "premature," but say it did not begin until Bentley was convinced his first marriage could not be saved.
"They have both expressed that it was wrong and premature," Joyner said in his statement. "They do not want to try and cover this up even though they know many will never accept them for it. Even so, they are married now and are resolved to make the most of their marriage, their lives, and to continue to serve the Lord in the best way that they can." (Read Joyner's statement.)
Joyner was one of several charismatic ministers who appeared on the platform at the Lakeland Outpouring last June when Bentley publicly submitted himself to the oversight of apostolic leaders Bill Johnson, John Arnott and Ché Ahn, who represent a group called the Revival Alliance.
Arnott said the alliance would serve in an advisory role during Bentley's restoration process. "I trust all of those guys," Arnott said. "They're just men of integrity, men of grace."
Arnott said Bentley, because of his actions, had stepped out of the fellowship of the alliance. "Relationally we all do care for him," Arnott said. "But he wouldn't be seen as a member in good standing."
In a statement released with Joyner's, Bentley said he has been in a season of brokenness. He said his previous marriage endured "years of unresolved conflicts" and apologized that it ended in divorce.
"I take full responsibility for my part for the ending of the marriage," he said. "I realize that my silence and decisions have caused many of you to feel hurt, confused, and offended. The reason for the silence was for my need of healing, creating a restoration process under a team of qualified leaders, much needed rest after the Lakeland Outpouring, repentance, and the divorce process."
Bentley said he hopes to be "fully restored, strengthened, healed, and to learn from all the mistakes I have made along the way."
Bentley was scheduled to begin the restoration process last October, but Joyner said his relocation to Fort Mill was repeatedly delayed due to problems securing a permanent visa.
Last fall, Bentley stepped down from the Canada-based ministry he founded, which has since changed its name from Fresh Fire to Transform International. Joyner said Fresh Fire USA would be based in Fort Mill at Heritage International Ministries, which Joyner leads, and he invited supporters to contribute to the ministry.
"The whole point of restoration is to get you back from where you were," Joyner said. "He is going to be back in ministry, and we want to lay a solid foundation for that. There are partners who want to support his process. They want him restored and healthy. It's just building an infrastructure."
Bentley said he would remain out of public ministry while he sought healing, though teaching articles were posted at a MySpace page as recently as December and he continues to sell ministry product through his Sound of Fire Productions, which his father helps manage.
Although Joyner was unfamiliar with the MySpace page, he said it is appropriate for Bentley to begin telling people what happened in his life and ministry. "I think it can help [keep] a whole lot of other people from going through the same mess," Joyner said. "And he's a grown man; I don't treat him like a child. That would not help his process either. The main thing he's restricted himself on is preaching, going out doing any kind of public ministry, but there's a huge demand for understanding what happened."
Joyner said there is no rush to return Bentley to public ministry. "We know that trust has to be earned and that Todd will have to earn the trust of the Body of Christ for future ministry, which will not be easy, nor should it be," Joyner said in his statement. "Todd, more than most, does not want to jump back into ministry prematurely, even as much as he misses it in some ways."
From early on, the Lakeland Outpouring was fraught with controversy. When praying for healing, the tattooed evangelist was known to hit the sick in the stomach with his knee in a move more common among wrestlers than preachers. Bentley even recounted kicking a woman in the face in an act of "obedience to the Lord."
The revival meetings, which began at Ignited Church in April, ended officially in October. Pastor Stephen Strader said the church has continued to grow since then, and he has no regrets.
"I would not have done anything differently," Strader said. "Every action we took was based on the information given to us and what the Holy Spirit revealed to us. So if people aren't happy with decisions we made, they're going to have to talk to God. I tell people all the time, discernment is a gift, it's not a talent. If God decides to hide a matter, there's not a thing you can do about it. We constantly prayed for revelation, protection."
Arnott said he believes the Lakeland Outpouring was a genuine move of God. "There were a lot of people healed, a lot of people saved, genuine fruit came out of it," Arnott said. "A lot of young people got released and are ministering like never before. It is unfortunate when a leader falls like this. Nevertheless, the good part was good."
Joyner said the restoration team would be giving regular updates, including videos of Bentley telling his story posted at the MorningStar Web site.
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WannaBeLikeHim
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... The confusion on this whole subject has two basic causes: Those who teach that saved persons are sinless because all the tendency toward sin has been remove from them on the one hand and those who mistakenly teach that Rom. 7 describes the state of a born-again person. These opposite points of view are both false and most other views are an inconsistent mixture of both. 'Bondslavenchrist' said "If we, in our hearts still have the desires of the flesh, then that flesh IS NOT DEAD!" That is too absolute. Even Eve in her sinless state saw that the forbidden fruit was attractive. Whether she ate or not, was a matter of choice. Likewise, salvation does not make all works of the flesh unattractive, but through the power of the Holy Spirit, we're able to overcome (Rom. 8). Salvation does not turn us into puppets on a string. We still have to choose. The problem with many sins is that they appeal to normal, natural desire. For example, sexual desire is a normal God-given desire, but it also has a God-given purpose, which is that it is to be experienced by a married man and woman, in a pure way. The choice whether one allows this desire to be used in an unclean way is up to each person. The bible tells us that by the Spirit of God we are able to resist the temptation, but it does not tell us we're no longer attacked with temptation. On the other hand, there are those that say we're bound to be sinners to the day we die. If that were the case, death would be our deliverer! This error comes from a widespread interpretation that Rom. 7 is about born-again christians. But the chapter itself as well as its context shows otherwise. In Rom. 6, Paul addresses the heresy that we can continue to live in sin, because it would only make grace more abundant. He reproaches this with the strongest expression to do that in the Greek language: me genoito, which is something like "absolutely not"!. Anyone who has been baptised is dead to sin, so how could we continue to live in sin, he argues. Then, in chapter seven, he speaks about the role of the law. It is addressed to those who live under the law, the Jews. Chapter 6 says, we died to sin, chapter 7 says, we died to the law, who used to be our "husband". The rest of the chapter explains how the law was unable to deliver from sin: "whatever I don't want to to, I do", and so on. Then, at the end, Paul exclaims: who will save me from this body of death? The answer is: through Jesus. It is so obvious that ch. 7 is speaking about the impossibility to overcome sin by law-keeping. It is not about born-again christians. The situation of born-again christians is explained in ch. 8, in which Paul elaborates on the answer to the question at the end of ch. 7 (who will save me). Chapter 8 starts by telling us first, that there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ (no more under the law), but also how we, only through the power of the Spirit, can overcome sin (vs. 3-4). This is not automatic. A christian can still make the wrong choices. There are many exhortations in Paul's letter that tell us to lay down sinning. Being delivered doesn't mean we are unable to do wrong, it means being able to do right! It's our responsibility not to live in sin anymore. It's the whole point of Rom. 6. To 'Bondslavenchrist': your writing made me rethink these issues and I appreciate most of what you wrote. I have seen the same thing with many 'ministries': there's always talk of 'a new season' (whatever that is), everybody is promised a wonderful 'ministry' (or should I say: career), but I hardly ever see it really happen. I'm 46 years of age now, and I was raised in a Christian family (thank God). In my teenage years, I heard many sermons on holiness, purification, dying to self, self-denial, taking up the cross to follow Jesus, renouncing sin, make Jesus number one in your life, and so on. It was about surrendering all to Him, so He could live His life through us. But something was missing too. They hardly ever preached on what would happen after we surrender, it was all about breaking down the old and very little about building up the new. There was very litte preaching of faith that through the power of the Holy Spirit it IS possible to become the person God wants us to be. Nowadays, most preaching is about what we can get from God. Many preacher portray God as a kind of Santa Claus giving presents to spoilt children. Many people respond to altar calls for 'a new anointing' time after time, only to have the same 'experience' over and over again. They are like children in Disney World, wanting to go into the same roller-coaster many times, because they like the thrill. What happened to the preaching of the cross? |
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dandick
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A man lights his dog on fire for failing to recite Shakespeare There is a story about a man who had a dog. He gave his dog a command the dog could not obey. It was a simple command. It was to recite Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream by memory in 2 seconds. The dog looked at him as dogs do, and he threw the dog into the fire and burned him alive in a most cruel way for failing to obey. What are your thoughts about this man? Is he crazy? Insanely cruel? Unreasonable? Unjust? A cruel, cowardly, blithering idiot? A fool? Would he be considered a sinner or a godly man? Can God ask a man to do something he cannot do under penalty of eternal damnation? Can God impute the sin of one man to another? Some might ask who I am to ask these questions. I would ask who are they to blame God. They would claim to be supported by Romans 7 and 8. I would claim to be supporting and following Romans 7 and 8. Revelations 21:8 says all liars, cowards, etc. will find their place in the lake of fire. Can a liar continue to be a liar and go to heaven? If so, is the Bible lying? Or does God lie and call them an honest person because He cannot see the person's sin as some would say? Has God lied to Himself? Or, is it possible for a person to give up sin and repent and receive Jesus and actually, in truth, become an ex-liar, an ex-adulterer, an ex-murderer, and so on? Did Jesus die for sins past, present, and future? Or were those words, "past, present, and future", stuck into the middle of scripture in violation of Revelations which tells us about plagues being added to those who add to scripture? Does the Bible say, "past, present, and future"? Are are some people merely lying and swearing oaths by sticking a "Thus saith the Lord" onto back their own interpretations? What is the difference between forgiveness for future sins and license to continue in sin without penalty? Did Jesus die to save us from sin, or did Jesus love sin so much that He died to remove the penalty of sin so we could continue living in it rather than serving God faithfully? Did God so love the world, or did He so love sin that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever continueth in sin should not perish but have eternal life? Is it God's design to turn heaven into hell by bringing sin into the midst of it, or is it Jesus goal to destroy the worlds of the devil? I believe in a God who forgives sin. I don't believe in or respect a God that condones, coddles, supports, encourages, licenses, protects, and multiplies sin. I believe when we stand before God on that final day, there will be no fantasy make believe situations where God sort of tells fantasy lies saying we are good because He is blind or unaware of our sins. I believe in a God who will say of our past sins that they are covered by and paid for by the blood of Jesus. But, I do not believe for a minute that if we are still liars, thieves, adulterers, murderers, blasphemers, haters of our parents and such that God will somehow tell lies about us because we rattled off a sinner's prayer to save our skin but never had any intention of repenting. I fully expect Satan to bring his charges against us no matter who we are. I fully expect our secret sins to be brought right out in the open. I fully expect Satan to make demands that God be honest and fair and if we be found guilty of sin, that we should not be released while Satan is punished unless there is One to pay the price for our sin. And if we have not repented of that sin, if we have not confessed the sin, if we have not taken responsibility for it, if we are still, in fact, in real life, sinners, then I fully expect God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit will have no choice but to be united in telling the truth as it is. And, whatever sin we die with in our hearts whether it is evidenced outwardly or not by our actions, whatever sin we die with in our hearts will be brought to be exposed for what it is, and if it has not been purged by the blood of Jesus Christ, it will stand unforgiven. We are able to repent. We are morally obligated to do so. We can argue theology and tell lies to ourselves and convince ourselves we have escaped judgment when we haven't, and in the final day our sin will find us out. Or we can repent and make sure of our salvation right now. |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... contend4thef8th You tell me that I am singling out verses out of context so I can prove my point. Then you go and do that with I John 1:9. I John 1: 9 DOES NOT SAY WE WILL CONTINUE TO SIN FOR AS LONG AS WE ARE ALIVE! Kindly read this whole article about I John 1>>>>> A Short Treatise on I John 1 05/09/2007 Brothers and Sisters, There has been much confusion on the following verses in I John. Man has taken certain verses completely out of context, used a single verse to build a total doctrine, ignoring the rest of the verses surrounding and also the rest of I John. So in keeping with ALL of the passages in I John and the rest of the Bible, let us look at what these few verses actually tell us. 1Jn 1:5 And this is the message [the message of promise] which we have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no darkness in Him at all [no, not in any way]. 1Jn 1:6 [So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the Gospel presents]. FIRST of all, we cannot walk in darkness and have fellowship with God. SIN IS DARKNESS. Please look at this passage>>> 2Co 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers [do not make mismated alliances with them or come under a different yoke with them, inconsistent with your faith]. For what partnership have right living and right standing with God with iniquity and lawlessness? Or how can light have fellowship with darkness? 2Co 6:15 What harmony can there be between Christ and Belial [the devil]? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 2Co 6:16 What agreement [can there be between] a temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in and with and among them and will walk in and with and among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [Exod. 25:8; 29:45; Lev. 26:12; Jer. 31:1; Ezek. 37:27.] (Follow link to rest of article>>>>> http://z12.invisionfree.com/Ap...wtopic=192 ) There is one more passage I would like you to read>>> 1Ti 6:3 But if anyone teaches otherwise and does not assent to the sound and wholesome messages of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and the teaching which is in agreement with godliness (piety toward God), 1Ti 6:4 He is puffed up with pride and stupefied with conceit, [although he is] woefully ignorant. He has a morbid fondness for controversy and disputes and strife about words, which result in (produce) envy and jealousy, quarrels and dissension, abuse and insults and slander, and base suspicions, 1Ti 6:5 And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw. So you have done and so I withdraw! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
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... Bondslavenchrist said, "...If we are truly saved, then we will be obedient..." Oh, funny, then why were there so many references about repentance, restoration, forgiveness FOR US Christians? Again, like so many, you FOCUS on the few verses and form your own theology when what you should be doing is FOCUS on the WHOLE topic of obedience, disobedience, restoration, discipline, faith, works, etc. One CANNOT ALWAYS be obedient, THAT is a given and that is why we have passages like in Galatians 6: 1-3, James 2: 14-17 and 1 John 1: 9. Obedience is a perfection we strive for AND it is proof that the LORD is #1 in our life BUT it DOES NOT SAVE US as you INDEED have quoted on your web site by that "special speaker." Jesus ALONE saves us. Our obedience CONFIRMS we are saved. YET your wording, despite your disclaimer states obedience SAVES. WORDING is everything, why else would apostle Paul go against those who have twisted or misunderstood a matter of faith and try correcting them. As for the book of James chapter 2. James said WORKS PROVES our faith BUT WORKS (ie. OBEDIENCE) does not SAVE US, SALVATION comes from God alone. Go ahead, pick and choose all the scriptures you want to PROVE yourself right, but in the end your theology is flawed. You did say, "...If we are truly saved, then we will be obedient..." Now tell me, when was the LAST TIME you did not sin? Hmmm, jealous of your neighbors stuff, or lusting that sexy women with the big BAZOOKAS, fudged an item or two on your taxes (hey, it's ok, it's not like its totally breaking the LAW morally or legally), complain (in your mind) of that certain someone who monopolizes church meetings, withheld your tithes (or offerings) cause you disagree with the Boards decision, etc, etc. Tough row to hough BUT I'll stick with 1 John 1:9, thanks. |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... contend4thef8th I will not play semantics with you or anyone else. I never said that obedience earns salvation but that we must be obedient to be saved. That is TRUE whether you like the wording or not. As for the rest, well I will not comment. I asked everyone to lay down everything and go to God and ask HIM. If I said ANYTHING that in some way bothers you, forget about the letter of the law and consider the heart. You detract from the message. One more thing to consider>>>> We MUST have an experiential reality of these things in our lives OR we do not possess them. If we go by a positional promise, then all are saved. Jesus paid the penalty for EVERYONE. That is a promise. BUT must we not apprehend it by faith and receive it? That is just as much a "work" as obedience is! NO ONE receives true salvation apart from the Power of God, NO ONE! If we are truly saved, then we will be obedient. If we are NOT obedient, THEN ACCORDING TO HEB 5, WE ARE NOT SAVED! Our salvation doctrine MUST include this or it is a false doctrine. It is not alone for I John 5:18 says whoever practices SIN is NOT born of God! That also is true. Is that a work as well? Cease playing word games and trying to justify our position by using some verse that supports our position. NO MATTER what verse you claim about salvation, HEB 5:18 is STILL TRUE and So is I John 5:18 along with a host of others that all say the same thing. If it is NOT experiential, IT IS NOT REAL! As James says, prove your faith without works! He then says FAITH by itself without works is DEAD; IT CANNOT SAVE YOU! Is that a work? Be careful what you say. These verses are all true. Just because they may not fit into your doctrinal theories means nothing. They are true and are a part of TRUE BIBLICAL SALVATION! If we do not meet ALL of the requirements of these verses, WE WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD! I do not care how you want or do not like to say it; that is the TRUTH! If you wish to argue about words, you can argue with yoruself. The Bible, the WHOLE BIBLE is TRUE, including Heb 5:18, I John 5:18, and even II Cor 5:17. If that is NOT true in our lives then we will HAVE to give an account to God why we did NOT believe and obey Him! Do you know where God draws the line? I do not. I admit that freely. But I see these verses that tell us we are to walk in obedience and without sin. ANyone who practices these sins WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD! THAT is what the Bible says. Who are you to say different? I think I will believe the Bible over what ANYONE says. I do not care WHO they are. Just because it is a hard saying and may go against what I like or feel good about, DOES NOT MAKE THE BIBLE UNTRUE! Are you going to explain away what the Bible says? Are you NOW the interpreter of the Bible? I thought that was the Holy SPirit! I think I will listen to Him and not anyone else. a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
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... Dirk quoted, " Heb 5:8-9 Although He was a Son, He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered And, [His completed experience] making Him perfectly [equipped], He became the Author and Source of eternal salvation to all those who give heed and obey Him, [Isa. 45:17.] Do you know of ANY group, denomination, anyone at all that preaches WE MUST BE OBEDIENT IN ORDER TO HAVE SALVATION?" Dirk, if obedience is the way for one to have salvation, it is then a work. Works do not save. It would have been better for the speaker to say something like this, "Obedience IS proof that one's faith and salvation is genuine." As for Gal 5:19-21, it has been misunderstood. Some take it to extremes that they would not even have any kind of party, like birthdays. And on the other hand, false teaching has entered the church stating that a carnal Christian will be saved but receive no rewards. People forget that carnality is sin, and if the person is carnal they WILL NOT go to heaven. God HATES carnality. It's one thing to be a sinning Christian and have their works destroyed and it is ALTOGETHER different to be a Christian who has fervently but wrongly serving the Lord (Yep, it's in the Bible in the gospels). Now, about 2 Co 5:17, there are those who preach this as if literally, spiritually and physically, we have changed. NOT so. Spiritually, yes BUT our bodies will not be redeemed until the rapture. The point? Our POSITION with God has changed. Before we were enemies, now we are sons, heirs and friends. Before one could not approach God, now we can "boldly" enter His presence because of what Jesus has done. POSITION BEFORE CONDITION. How else to explain 1 John 1: 9 and also in Galatians 6: 1-3, "1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. 3 If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself. You are not that important." I am holy! I am a saint! I am truly born again and I don't need works of obedience to save me, BUT obedience will reveal my heart condition. Matthew 7:20-22, "20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions. 21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ " |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... Brothers and Sisters, I love how God organizes and prepares things. He is so multifaceted and has control of so much and mostly we cannot even see it. A few days ago, The Lord had me begin to write something regarding ministry and HIS requirements. I finished it last night and this morning I find these latest entries in this blog. How appropriate! I know there will be some who will not like what I post here. If any who read these words find fault or are in any way incensed or angered by them, STOP! Do not blame me nor discount what I am saying. Be willing to HONESTLY look at yourselves and ask GOD what HE says. Do not think that JUST BECAUSE you have been saved or even a minister for many, many years you KNOW what is right and good. Find out from God what HE says, NOT what you THINK He says. Please read this whole article. You will have to follow the link at the bottom to finish it, BUT PLEASE do so. And then check it out scriptually and with the Lord. See if what is stated here is TRUE. God bless all! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk The Ordained versus the Presumed! 04/12/2009 The Lord recently reminded me of something He taught us while we were in Bible school. I am going to do my best to relate this without condemning or accusing anyone. However, whoever reads these words know this; some of you may know of these circumstances and I am not here to gossip or cause harm. The Church has gone too far away from what the Lord has desired and even those who are in full gospel circles of all kinds have been guilty of this. I am warning all NOT to take offense. Do not discount or ignore this message just because you do not like it. It may even step on your toes, but do not ignore the warning that is here. If any of these words, if these events touch you in any way, even if they cause you to become angry, please do NOT attack me, but rather, GO TO THE LORD and see if what I am saying is true or not! Make sure, you do not go to Him with ANY preconceived notions or ideas, but open to whatever He would say, even IF it means that you are wrong. Back in January of 2000, my wife, Linda and I began attending a small Full Gospel Bible College in upstate New York. We had been saved many years, had wanted to go to school for a long time, and finally the opportunity presented itself. We were not going so much for the education, although we knew we would learn many things, but to enter into a much deeper walk with the Lord and see where He would take us. Everyday, we would go to song service for about an hour followed by several classes that ended at lunch time. On occasion, the song services would continue longer than planned. The school would allow these longer services when they believed God was in the process of working in the lives of the students and whoever else was there. We had a special guest minister during our first 2 quarters at school. This extended service would often happen and there would be a “special anointing” as he called it, for whoever came forward. Of course, almost everyone did. We were the most anointed people around, but somehow very few were changed. It became a very bad joke among the students that we were going to have “another special anointing” although no one could ever explain what that really meant. This began our discovery of the reality of what was going on. Two sometimes three times a week, we would not have classes or they would be delayed due to these “special anointing” services. Many would go forward, be prayed for and fall all over the place. I must admit that Linda and I both were among those who were prayed for at first. But though almost everyone would fall “under the power” there was NO CHANGE in the lives of these people, including us. Believe me when I tell you it was NOT from lack of desire to be changed! Many of us so desired to be touched by God that we would go forward in the hope that God would do something, yet there was this underlying sense that things were NOT the way they should be. (cotinued at this link http://z12.invisionfree.com/Ap...wtopic=191 ) |
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WannaBeLikeHim
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... The Scriptures are very strict on marriage, and the sayings of Jesus take the lead here. In Mt. 7, he is more strict than the religious leaders of the day, while in most cases he reproaches their legalism. Realizing that should make us very careful. Jesus even tells us not pledge oaths, but "let your yes be yes and your no be no". We have to be people of the word, for God always keeps His Word. God takes this very seriously. If we need an oath to ampify our "yes", we're actually saying: "Don't believe me, if I just say 'yes', only if I swear, you can rely on me." No, Jesus says, don't even swear, just keep your word. This is the most important thing when it comes to marriage and it's time Christians start to believe His word. In stead they say "but I can't do it", or like what Joiner said, the Bentley didn't start his new relationship before he saw that his marriage could not be saved. It's a lie. Either this is a lie, or God's Word is a lie. If God says we must keep our word, it is possible, by His Grace. There's no way you can say the marriage can not be saved. It is also quite self-contradictory to say he waited until his marriage couldn't be saved and at the same time say, the new relationship was "premature". Why, if it was premature, what then is the relevance of saying he waited long enough? It can't be true at the same time. How can a spiritual leader as Joiner apparently is, accept that? How can he accept calling this "premature", where the right qualification would be "illicit"? How can dumping one's wife for a girl friend be a stepping stone to restoration? Restoration of what? The last lines of Joiner's statement make it all clear: we're asked to donate. So the objective is to get Bentley back on stage again. I expect him to be up and running within a year again. So, Restoration of what? Restoration of his financial resources to start all over again! |
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dandick
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faithful stolen? I think I see where you are coming from, but the fact that a spouse could be stolen would seem to me to be absolutely convicting evidence and proof the person was not faithful. In other words, the very meaning of faithful to me would imply the person could not be stolen from his or her spouse. That does not mean a person should be proud and careless and not concerned feeling he can do whatever he or she wants and still not fail, but rather a person who is truly faithful would not be sampling the temptations. In short, I believe it is never necessary for a person to fall into sin and that it is only by choice that a person can enter into sin. That is not to say we can stop temptation from coming to us against our will. That is not to claim that some of us have not fallen into sin because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But, I don't believe for a minute that our fall into sin was mandatory or forced upon us against our will. That gets into the whole predestination and free will controversy. But, to me, a fall into adultery proves the person was not faithful or else faithfulness has no meaning. |
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contend4thef8th
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... Dandick said, "Can a faithful spouse be stolen? Can an honest spouse be stolen? Can a real Christian be stolen? " Oh yes, oh so very yes. I have met some and heard of other's who have just "up and quit" the faith. It has to do with the anointing and presence of God. It will expose their hypocrisy to themselves and to Him (though he all ready knows). To others, it leads them astray from the truth but they stay "in ministry" building their own kingdom on earth that is NOT like in heaven. The heart is deceitful. And as an old radio show knowingly proclaimed, "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows." God knows always. |
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dandick
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I didn't write that last message well I think I did a poor job of wording and editing that last message. Regarding repentance, restoration, and reentry into ministry, I have an experience I would like to share. A youth pastor who played a major part in leading my family to the Lord later had a moral failure. I feel very confident his repentance was very deeply sincere. How do I know? What was different about him? First, he confessed his sin before the church and public. Second, he felt honor bound to resign from the ministry so as not to do harm to the church. Third, he moved his family away to set up safeguards to keep adultery from rekindling. Fourth, he chose to take another career and deepen his relationship with his family. Fifth, he is still with his wife and not with the other woman. Sixth, he did not seek to regain his position like a person addicted to the limelight. Seventh, his family recovered and weathered this storm well. Eight, he gradually began to minister to individuals and small groups Nine, after several years the Lord opened the door to start a new church. Repentance, when it is real, has consequences. It is life changing. It does not leave people raising a big, empty emotional hoopla while living in sin. We need to grow out of this stupidity of confusing hoopla with revival. And that does not mean we have to start putting on an air of gloom and pretend to be stoics. It is not about empty forms with no substance. It is about substance. It is not about the promise of substance without the substance of substance. It is the substance of substance. Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. If you have faith, your faith will prove something that people cannot see directly. When we sin, we show we don't believe God will be hurt or that there is a God who will become angry with us. We do not believe there is a God who will have to tell the truth regarding our character. We fully expect to get away with the sin. In fact, we are engineering circumstances to fit most conveniently with their ability to indulge in sin without suffering the consequences. We seek to shelter ourselves. And that proves we do not believe in God because if we believed in God, we would tremble at the thought of sinning against Him. That's why the Bible tells us the fool has said in his heart there is no God. We need to believe in God and fear Him. It is the very beginning of wisdom. The preacher in adultery has another lord. Jesus is not his Lord. He has another king. His obedience is not reserved for Jesus Christ at all. He obeys and trusts other lords. The lord of lust. The lord of greed. The lord of pride. When Jesus calls for obedience and the other lord cries for obedience, the other lord is the one the sinner trusts and obeys. He does not believe the consequences of disobeying God are as severe as they are for disobeying their other lord. They may try to pacify God as some people in some cultures may throw their virgins into a volcano or burn their children in the arms of Molech trying to appease their gods. But, this is not worshipping God. It is more like throwing just enough of our refuse to God in hopes of appeasing Him the way one might try to appease a hungry and angry dog by tossing a few table scraps his way and expecting him to be happy having had his needs met. Passing this off as worship is very insulting and hurtful to God. The arrogance of sin is incredible as is the robbery it commits against God. As Christians we need to outgrow the fear of man. We need to learn honesty. We need to learn to speak the truth in love, in humility that is real, and in wisdom that begins with the fear of the Lord. Anything less is a cheap scam and an insult to God's intelligence. We need to rise above this by getting down to our knees and asking God to forgive us and to search us because we will never be adequate to search ourselves on our own. If we want to come clean, we have to let God search us in the way He is willing to do it. That is why I approach the thought of entering the pulpit carefully with a lot of prayer and in full need of God's complete searching. To enter into a teaching role, we have to be accountable for the words we say. But, to refuse to enter into a teaching or ministry role when God has called is also to enter into disobedience for which we will be held accountable. So, the only choice we have which will be fitting and appropriate is to seek God and trust Him and obey Him and Him alone. |
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dandick
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Now I mean reeeealy mean it A woman gets into an affair and dumps her husband to marry another man. What is the worth of her vow to her second husband? Can she say, "I have always and will always stand by my vows"? Is she honoring her first vows? She can't? Why? Did she lie when she said she cannot? If she says, "I reeeealy" mean it, does that make her more honest? A woman steals another woman's husband. Will she steal your husband, too? How do you know? Does she honor vows? If so, then is she honoring the wedding vows of the man she is stealing? Can a faithful spouse be stolen? Can an honest spouse be stolen? Can a real Christian be stolen? Is Todd "reeeeeeeeeally" faithful to his second wife, to his family, to God, to his church? Is Sandy Patti "reeeeeeeely" faithful? Will Amy Grant steal someone else's husband, or will she stop after one? Or are they "reeeeeealy" faithful? How many e's are required in "really" to turn dishonesty into honesty? How many? How many "thou shalt not judges" are required to make a liar into an honest person? Or to take a hell bound liar out of the grips of the devil, out of harms way, out of being used to take others to hell with a bad example and into heaven? Would you trust Satan to minister and lead people to Christ? If not, then why? Is it because He is a sinner? Aren't we all? But, then why be partial? Why play favorites? What is the difference? What is the core difference between Satan and someone qualified to minister? Or is everyone morally obligated to minister and the sinner in violation of everything God stands for whether he pretends to minister or honestly admits he is not doing so? And if an unfaithful person owns a ministry lock, stock, and barrel, then isn't that so-called ministry merely an extension of him? Should we be arguing over whether a person should be allowed to minister and rather make our choice as to whether we will allow that person to minister to us personally or whether we will recommend that person? If Todd's ministry is of God, we should not fight against it lest we be found warring against God. If Todd's ministry is not of God, then it will rattle on nevertheless whether we like it or not. The point is whether we should be accepting or recommending his so-called ministry. I have trouble accepting and trusting a person who has chosen to leave his spouse to marry another and seems to seek a quick reentry. That is not my ideal of someone I would tend to trust. But, I also believe all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and every person needs to be forgiven. Still, even though sin is sin, there are some behaviors that tend to be more common among untrustworthy people. For example, if I had to choose to trust my daughter to a serial rapist and murder or whether to trust her to someone who I heard use a bad word in mixed company once upon stubbing his toe, I think the right choice would be obvious. It may be a matter of discerning whether a particular sin, being repented of, would still bring serious damage to the church or ministry. Of course, all sin is evil. All sin is a brazen betrayal of God and denial of His authority. All sin violates God and brings Christ back to the cross to be crucified again. All sin is evil and inexcusable and unjust and a robbery of God. But, if a person is very deeply repentant of having done what most people would consider a small sin, that may tend to bring others to repent of their sins as well. The humility such repentance shows and the commitment and love for our Savior that such repentance shows can be great while an outward show of repentance for something more severe such as adultery is more likely to be seen by people as a lie and a show put on to get back into the pulpit where a more sincere person might release the pulpit to another more morally qualified person and expect and even desire to go through a considerable period of time needed to restore respect to the ministry once again. I feel that a person who is sincere would most likely take that path rather than try to get back into the pulpit quickly. |
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Globalgospel
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Paul 'on married', and 'on single' BELIEVERS The verses quoted so often here in I Cor. 7 should include context, context, context (as all Scripture taken for doctrine, reproof, corrections). Paul remained separated from a wife, and was able to do so WITHOUT marrying another BECAUSE he could "contain". But if a single person (in all practicality- 'the same as SINGLE', or clearly SINGLE), although better off if they also (like him) can "contain", should they find themselves, unlike him so far), in a "burn", would be better off TO MARRY that very object of their "burning", for it is then BETTER to marry than to BURN. Of course, this speaks of the marriage between men and women, and not of the civil approvals of secular cities and states, even countries, who are looking for the legalities only? of what constitutes a marriage as according to the 'State'? Paul says clearly (in total context) that unto the married- which CAN also remain like me (content to live in a "containment" and having NOT allowed themselves to NOT be content in living in this same "containment") and which are NOT "burning" for another (of the Scripturally 'eligible') of their 'opposite' sex, "let NOT this wife (in "containment") depart from her husband who also lives in "containment" (as believers). BUT, if and when she should depart, let her remaining (in "containment) not change over to affections for another of the opposite sex unto "burning", rather let her instead (should she desire not to continue her life of "containment") return to her husband (even though he may, or may not, still desire a life of "containment" within marriage, as was before). Also, let not that husband then put away his wife (who has returned to him out of a desire to not continue in "containment") regardless of his, OR her "containment", or "non-containment" continuing desires. Paul goes on to speak to the rest of the believers (who are NOT like him in ability for "containment"). Husbands and wifes who cannot know if they can "make whole" ("save") their own 'married' mate (who desires to leave and separate from their vows based upon "unbelief" between the lives and doctrines between the two parties who obviously have aught against each other in original vows and secrets withheld from one another prior to their marriage) are then told "to let the other depart". And, most importantly HERE, and in this day, and time, during these 'last' of these 'last days' called 'times of the Gentiles' until the end of the age, the BROTHER and the SISTER (in these cases of these extreem violations, and major differences in doctrine and practice) are NOT in bondage in these extreem cases FOR GOD HAS NOT CALLED US UNTO LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WITHOUT PEACE (REGARDLESS if they are Brothers and Sisters in Christ, and even IF had children together- who also need God's promised PEACE, especially OVER VIOLENCE present of hardness of hearts which obviously developes from either dishonesties past, and/or waywardness apart due to developing doctrines and practice of their believed 'callings', applied to their 'believed' faiths). |
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contend4thef8th
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You're right wannabelike him Sadly, too many Christians play fast and loose with the Word. Ignore one part for another and not looking at the whole Word. Obviously you know what the Word says. Keep the faith. |
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WannaBeLikeHim
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... 10 But unto the married I give charge, [yea] not I, but the Lord, That the wife depart not from her husband 11 (but should she depart, let her remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband); and that the husband leave not his wife. (1. Cor. 7:10-11) This is not my idea, it's the Word of God. How can they speak of restoration, if the Word of God is ignored? This is not remarriage, this is adultery obscured by a wedding. Don't call this restoration, please. He should have abandoned this sinful relationship and pray for God's grace to restore his first marriage. With all the talk about 'restoration', I wonder, is anybody caring for his betrayed wife? |
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montezuma
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Bentely Hogwash all is hogwash. Why does Charisma keep giving these people such free press? You are just feeding their egos and also will help sell their next great book when they are RESTORED> Why not give us the good news of the gospel and not air our dirty laundry to an already sarcastic and skeptical world. Put the likes of Bentely under the blood of Jesus and move on. His ego is already too big. Duane Nicholson |
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montezuma
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Bentely Farce Hogwash all is hogwash. Why does Charisma continue to give these kind of people so much print?? All you do is feed their egos and keeping them in the limelight just sells more books for them when the are finally RESTORED. What a travesty. Lets hear about the good things of the gospel and keep our dirty laundry under the blood of Jesus and not fodder for the world to make fun of us over and get more bitter against the church. Duane Nicholson |
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Globalgospel
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'gifts of discernment' OR 'suspect' giftings only? What IF, the church in North Carolin has absolutely nobody amongst the "elderships" there, who have the gifting sufficient to discern successful or unsuccessful rehab? Can we then instead rely upon all the 'pundits'? who claim "discernment" (BUT most clearly have only that most common amongst the flock gifting known as 'suspect' ONLY). So then we're ALL in a heap of trouble; and God must make the decision as to HIS servants? or not? What a trajedy that it come to that !!! That God Himself must make the decision as to HIS OWN SERVANTS? |
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Richie Rich
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! Sometimes God's people can be very naive. The guy is a total con-artist. Give your head a shake, wake up from your sleep. If he is a man of God why hadn't he acknowledged that he has sinned before God and caused the unbelieving to blaspheme His name? Todd Bentley is all about Todd Bentley! Todd is the victim, he is the one who has been hurt, etc.......... Care to comment..... |
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Globalgospel
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"reporting or editorializing" This article seems more like pure 'reporting' while others more like 'editorializing'. When people read a "report" from an author who has previously written as "editor", or "commentator", they cannot help but read 'between the lines' when the "report" says 'so and so SAYS' etc., et al. The comments following this particular "report" seem to take on the 'author' point of view from previous "editorials". This seems to need clarification re: Charisma Magazine as having been representing "charismatics" past (with occational "pentecostal" articles thrown in as well). So, for clarifications we would want to emphasise what the BIBLE makes clear to those who look into "This Mirror" (with little desire to walk away repeatedly forgetting what manner of this person it tells us about ourselves in TRUTH). To begin with, we all will see our OWN sin when reading our Bible (WITHOUT just trying to pick up another philosophical approach to living). It is a very DOCTRINAL Book (first and foremost), AND was written by "pentecostal" Israelites TO mainly "charismatic" Israelites (of the 'dispersions' away from Israel's Land years before). The authors were not always "pentecostals" but came into "pentecostalism" only after having experienced "charismatic", even 'charismania' first, also even before 'charismania', having also experienced being 'anti-anointing' (type of anti-Christianity) which they later on BECAME able by the Holy Spirit to author our New Testament (to be studied for "pentecostal" doctrine and not just 'philisophical' options toward believer's 'lifestyles' et al). As to this particular "report", after much "editorializings", we must bring forth that 'occational' past "pentecostal" reporting of this Magazine and others along this vein past. "Pentecostalism" stand first and foremost as for those whom the Holy Spirit refers to as "overcomers" in "this life". Jesus refers to the "few" who find the "narrow gate" (compared to the "many" who find that "wider gate"). Notice the entrance into the 'next life' apart from Hell has "gate" (ONLY in the singular) WHILE THE GATES (PLURAL) REFER TO THE GREAT VARIETY OF ENTRANCES INTO HELL. Also "pentecostalism" refers to (not only finding that "narrow road", WITHIN that "broad road" leading into that "next life" beyond this planet) BUT also says that "the many" on this road of salvation will go on into that next life" ENTRANCE INTO HEAVENLY PLACES while only the "few" on this road of salvation and toward "salvation" will find that "narrow gate" upon leaving this earthly planet. As to those who will NOT make that "next life" entrance through the GATE (singular, being EITHER that 'wide' OR 'narrow') heavenly, these are those who have dropped away from that "measure of faith" that "everyone" has, being born HERE, all coming into this world HERE. These are the apostates. These are the 'faithless', the 'unbelieving', et al. These are also NOT the 'innocent' (as those without age of accountability as of yet). Heavenly places also are places of future judgments, ESPECIALLY for the singular "wide gate" ONLY enterers. So with this in mind Scripturally, lets approach these 'charismatic reportings' from a more purely, even Biblical "pentecostal" point of view. AND not in any 'universalism', 'catholic', or 'reformed catholic' PHILOSOPHY (especially re: as if it's all about heaven or hell) but rather that this Magazine is supposed to represent BELIEVERS who have believed beyond 'initial' baptism ONLY, and have entered into a great desire to be able to hear from that HOLY SPIRIT of PROMISE now sent HERE on this planet with HIS BAPTISMS "which must also ACCOMPANY salvation" and approach the subject of 'revivalists' and 'revival' with this "pentecost" in mind. |
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dandick
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Judging vs Trusting In reality, we really have no choice over where someone will take hold of the title of "ministry". Nor do we have a choice in the matter of who will give their seal of approval or who will refuse to do so. A person who wants to enter into a role of ministry can get into it in whatever way he chooses. If one will not grant him a seal of approval, then another organization will. Nor can we do anything about those who will speak approvingly or disapprovingly or who will speak honestly and faithfully and who will not, or who will be mean and dishonestly accusing and unfair and who will not. Or who will ascribe true or false motives or represent truthfully or untruthfully their opponents. As Christians, we are bound to love, and where we have been wronged and our brother asks forgiveness, we are bound to forgive. However, it would be a lie from the pit of hell to suggest for a moment that we are obligated to trust stupidly, foolishly, and irresponsibly and give our own seal of approval for the highest positions of ministry merely because someone wants to bad mouth all who won't agree or approve branding them as judgmental, mean hearted people. I see this happen with irresponsible people all the time. They want to chew on the meat of sin and enjoy it while prancing around saying, "thou shalt not judge". They have no concept of responsibility for their actions and for their loss of trust. They claim otherwise and look incredulous and wonder how anyone can distrust such a sweet and innocent face such as theirs, and they expect everyone else to feel morally and spiritually obligated to trust them just because they ask for it or demand it or will bruise everyone with harsh judgments if they won't approve or agree. The point is not whether sin can be forgiven or whether we should love or forgive, but whether it is sane, reasonable to trust a person back into the ministry so fast. The Bible says a person in this position is to be above reproach. I don't believe this should be used to say Todd should be kept out of ministry forever. In fact, I believe he has a moral and ethical and spiritual obligation to seek out the leading of the Lord faithfully and obey Him and not to obey men regarding this. But, the rest of us have an obligation, too, not to recommend someone unless we know they should be recommended and not to throw the Lord's money to an organization that is not well proved to be supporting the work of the Lord faithfully. It's one thing to raise a hoopla of excitement and another thing to bring revival. People have lost their common sense that the two are unrelated. Revival is about resurrection from the death of sin. Revival is a raising from the dead. People make wild claims all the time, and they don't always correspond with the real miracles that take place. Some are real. Some are fake. We should all know that. It's obvious. But, revival is about coming out of sin, surrendering, giving all to Jesus -- not about getting back into the pulpit as fast as you can. Not about brow beating everyone and making them feel obligated to agree with you for fear you will call them a bad name or accuse them. The best way to get the respect of the people and God is to earn it. Not demand it. Start with a track record of prayer, faithfulness, integrity. |
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Globalgospel
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David's "sin"? People on this thread who claim getting wisdom from organizations SUCH AS like "Christian Research Institute", "etc., et al", should just open their Bible for wisdom and not continue in those 'catholic' minded institutions who try to take a person back into 'creedal' catholic reliance (even as the "Reformed") which themselves push 'creeds' over Scripture itself. Examples: subjects such as original sin, eternal security, et al, even 'creedal' statements re: "he who must be saved must be saved thru the 'holy roman catholic' traditions of faith and practice"? So, to jar people away from reliance upon organizations who would want to take also today's charismatics, even some pentecostals, BACK into creedal catholicisms, we again present to you simply to study to show YOURSELVES approved unto God a "workman" (YOURSELVES) that needeth not be ashamed (especially at His coming "in the air" to 'snatch away' from HERE onlythose 'ready and waiting', looking for this type of 'return' for His bride. As to David's Sin, we need only remind you that IT WASN'T as the 'catholic creedal' have stated it was. IT WAS NOT ADULTERY on the King's part. Instead it was disobedience (even as 'King over Israel') to those laws of God then in place for Israel. It applies today (even the results following) when one decides to "judge" other people's sins by NOT allowing the process of turning them over to the local "elders" of their own "congregational gatherings" ! INSTEAD (even TODAY) PEOPLE STILL WANT TO KILL THEM, that is, BY ROOTING THEM UP AND OUT OF GOD'S ARMY (ALL THE WHILE KNOWING BY ROOTING THEM UP, that THEY ARE ALSO ROOTING UP other GOOD SOLDIERS IN THEIR DEATHS CAUSED ALSO TODAY BY THESE CREEDAL WANTABE KINGS AND PRIESTS NOW TODAY claiming to be today's "apologists" even today AS A REPEAT IN HISTORY). Read the story of David carefully and you will see that what followed in his life from this miscalculation in handling his problem with that young wicked, drunken, problem making, soldier Uriah (caused even the King over Israel 'personally' much grief and sorrow the rest of his life on this planet ALL BECAUSE HE REFUSED TO "ALLOW THE ELDERS" OF THE LOCAL CONGREGATION TO DO THEIR JOB as according to God's plans and purposes HERE. |
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dandick
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Love and restoration We need to love as real Christians love -- not with cowardice and seeking to get the approval of man, but with the love of the Lord that is faithful, that does not coddle the sinner into hell with sweet and socially acceptable lies, that seeks the Lord to find a way to speak a hard truth in love in a way that drives it home and changes lives for the better. I do not believe for a minute God will restore Todd Bentley or any person who falls into sin without that person coming to a sincerity of repentance. I also do not believe that any of us without the wisdom and knowledge of God can ever have a basis for judging if we ourselves are in compromise and sin. The person in sin is blind and cannot see to judge honestly because he refuses to open his eyes to see his own sin and repent of it. It's a sinner judging the sinner -- the blind leading the blind. The Bible does not say we should not ever judge or discern regarding others. It tells us to take the log out of our eye first before removing the speck out of another person's eye. But that does not give us an excuse to sit with the log in our eye chanting the satanic lie and mantra of cowardice that has brought us to wreck ourselves, our nation, our families, and our society and misquotes God dishonestly ranting, "thou shalt never judge under any circumstance". Who lives by that mantra? The reciting of it is an indictment against itself. How can one chant it without proving himself an utter liar and hypocrite. Oh, tolerance! Tolerance! Give me tolerance. Let me barbeque babies in their mother's wombs. Let me play the whore on my marriage. Let me indulge my mind on the sexual lusts for children and ruin the mind the Lord has given me with drugs, but oh, please, please, please do not judge. The words of a Christian must be sweet and palatable, and it must coddle my soul into heaven and make me unaware of the danger and treachery of my destiny so I can enjoy my last minutes on earth with the greatest of ease and comfort, for never again in all eternity will I have an opportunity to enjoy anything once life is over! Brothers and sisters, we have to grow up and get past this lie that has given us unchallenged abortion, unchallenged harlotry in the churches, unbridled sin, adultery, divorce, suicide, drug abuse, economic destruction, robberies, drunkenness, and the very presence of hell here on earth. Rather than defending sin against the Word of God, we must learn to speak truthfully in love and defend the Word of God against the assertions and demands of sin. Not so the Word of God won't be found lacking, but so God will be glorified as we speak of who we are to the Lord and all of heaven by which side of this controversy we stand on. Do we love God or do we love sin? Which do we defend vehemently? Do we sit passively without any concern for how God feels when HIs name is dragged through the mud, when His unborn children are slaughtered in the womb, when His covenant of marriage is desecrated and dragged through the sewer as our nation drags the faithful and their children into court to be robbed of everything precious so the courts can pimp for the unfaithful and their partners? So they can threaten injustice and robbery upon the faithful and demand protection money like a common Mafia thug while Christians stand by and do nothing at all? Let us speak to God of how we want to be blessed individually, as a society, as a family, and as a nation by how we treat the unborn, the victims of adultery and divorce, and the victims of prostitution of justice and the victims of sin including God who did not deserve to be sinned against! Then let those who would be forgiven repent rather than ask for coddling and support to continue in sin. That is sincerity. |
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Gerhard
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Let us shine the light of Christ not darkness. I want to encourage all to shine the light to the world like Jesus told us in Mathew 5-7. If we shine the light of the hope of glory the world will gloryfy our Father in heaven. Let us not do as the world does, but mature in Christ. Do you have the love of Christ in you? Jesus told us to love our enemies even and by our love for one another we will be known. We truly should love every one. There is no way out. We shouldn't condemn any one, for we should be loving any one. We should hate sin, but love any one like Jesus did. Jesus gave His life to sinners and not for righteous people. Those that recon themselves righteous can't receive God's grace. And if you recon you don't need God's grace and mercy any more, why did Jesus tell us to pray: "..forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us..". Let us not be ignorant, but as Jesus made it clear that we should be forgiving. I know much of the facts going on and most of what is speculated by people about all that is happening with Todd Bently is pure gossip and most of it not true and not seeing the full picture. Most still have unforgiveness that isn't dealt with. Forgive. How much did God forgive for you. That which is true though: God will restore Todd Bently if He will and He will, that God has assured me too. And if any one say that is a lie. I know God does not lie. As a witness to all out there: God will restore Todd as sure as He restored David after falling for another man's wife. The spiritual leaders in Jesus' time on earth allso was in error because they didn't know the scriptures and the power of God. By the power of God in Jesus Christ the worst person on earth can be restored. If we pray against people's restoration, you actually became the enemy of God, cause our battle is against the forces of evil and not people that God wants to be redeemed from sin. Our battle is to see people turn to God and not to kick them when they're down. God loves you all. Learn from Peter. I did the hard way and know how you all feel. I felt the same, but it is pride to think you can talk about someone else like all you are doing and think God will not humble you. Look what happened to Peter, that He denied Christ, after saying he never would do it. But God is faithfull who also restored Peter's faith. May God restor your faith too to the pure devotion to Christ in obeying Hiim in love to all people and hoping to see God resoring and pray for the broken world. There is people going to hell while we Christians have arguments. Our war is against the evil forces not against brothers and sisters. Please, let us shine our light pray for others and don't shoot people down when they make mistakes. God will bring all your mistakes to the light if you still are arogant, but i pray for mercy that God will restor your faith just as He did with Peter after Jesus' stood up from the dead. Jesus is interceeding for us all in heaven, lets join Him and not pray against Him, i plead with you all. May God bless you all to come to know His Son, Jesus Christ, in love and wisdom and understanding through the Holy Spirit that lead us in all truth, in Jesus Name. Love, Gerhard |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... DANDICK, You have just written some of the wisest words on this thread. I wonder how many will understand what you say? As long as we go to someone else to get our understand or blessing "from God" we WILL end up deceived! PERIOD!!!! If we beleive God allows us to continue to walk in sin while we claim to be merely christians is to literally throw out over half of the New Testament. The words of laying down sin are NOT meant for leaders, THEY ARE MEANT FOR BABES IN CHRIST!!! The newest child of God can and SHOULD receive TOTAL SANCTIFICATION, the absolute death of the carnal nature and the Resurrection Life of Jesus Christ within our hearts whereby we experientially walk JUST LIKE JESUS! If we do not believe we can walk JUST LIKE JESUS then once again WE DO NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE! Thank you dandick for speakng the truth! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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dandick
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Holy Spirit and wind David was indeed called a man after God's own heart and was even listed in the genealogy of Jesus Christ. And he sinned terribly. But, that does not justify his sin or diminish the long term affects of his sin. His deep, continual, crying out to God with tears is documented in scripture. One of his sons raped his daughter and another son slaughtered that son. One son built up an army and wanted to wipe David and his army out, and David only wanted to surrender to his son and let him have his way, but instead his son was killed. David fasted and prayed and cried out to God for forgiveness and healing of his son so much that people feared to tell him when his son finally died. And, then David cleaned up, accepted the consequences, and moved on. Your sin or mine may lead our children and other loved ones to hell. That is how serious sin is. It is no small matter the way we too often think it is. Our complacency and cowardice in the face of abuse and injustice, our fear to speak up and tell the truth, our tendency to coddle the sinner and brutalize the person who has the integrity and courage and sincerity of love to speak a hard truth in love is nothing short of the guilt that a paid firefighter has for letting little children burn down in a house while pouring gasoline on the fire. Only for our cowardice, it is a cowardice that leads people into an eternal death. Would we be happy to go to that eternal death ourselves? Then why do we let our cowardice and arrogance make us feel entitled to live in sin that leads others there? Why do we feel entitled to be sheltered from the "judgment" of others? Is it because they have no right to complain because they, too, live in sin? Are we trying to construct a mutual admiration society or a mutual defense society against the callings of Jesus Christ to leave sin and to come out of that harlot of sin? Or are we sincere and seeking to live with Jesus Christ as our Lord not only in the land of our imagination but in the land of reality, too? We are saved by grace through faith. So many times it seems we judge the presence of the Holy Spirit by our feelings. If we have goosebumps, that's the Holy Spirit. If we have to trust the faithfulness of God's Word to tell us whether the presence of the Holy Spirit is there, then we question our sensitivity to the Holy Spirit. But, do we trust God's Word? Do we regard God to be a truth teller? We should. Isn't it entirely possible for a whole crowd of people to be swindled or manipulated or swooned into feeling something as happens with other cults and religions? Don't get me wrong here. I am not in the least bit denouncing or renouncing the gifts or presence or workings of the Holy Spirit. Nor am I attempting to attribute the working of the Holy Spirit to something or someone else. But, neither do I want to ascribe the workings of someone or something else to the Holy Spirit either. I am a charismatic myself. I speak in tongues, believe in and practice things like the word of knowledge, prophecy, and am an intercessor myself, so I am not in the least bit against these things. I just believe with all my heart that we need more spiritual discernment based on the Word of God and proper and honest application of it rather than a pounding of the fists and assertions that we're already doing that. Some searching of the heart should be regarded necessary, and some humility and integrity should be regarded as necessary in order to be able to see clearly whether we are going in the right direction or not. Much of the issue that is really at hand here is not whether Todd is sincere or not, but whether we can rest back on a man and trust him and depend on him to take us into the presence of God rather than having a relationship with God ourselves. Frankly, I don't think it is wise to trust our soul into the hands of any man other than Jesus Christ, and our benefits derived from ministry must be more that of training and development instead of getting our daily requirement of goosebumps. |
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Globalgospel
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"The Holy Spirit is like the Wind?" Did anybody see the Holy Spirit coming, inspecting, and/or going at any past meetings led by this man and the main subject of this Charisma announcement? If they did? Then they would be near calling Jesus a liar? Since Jesus was not a liar unto us, why then do the apologists of today claim they know, as 'seers', and proudly for all of us and our 'benefit'? of just now what, whom, when, where and how this, and many other revivals of the past, were visited and can document the complete visitations of all these meetings past? And most importantly, can they say for sure, since they themselves had not associated the Holy Spirit with these revivals of the past? just how their either 'sightings'? or 'non-sightings' ? or just how then can we trust their 'seer' judgements future? Since they admit in all this they include walk by SIGHT not faith? |
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odonnell
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The Apostle and Prophets of the 80's Todd Bentley has been a pawn for the Guru’s of our day. He is a fall guy and reflection of what the Body of Christ looks like, the old order within an old wineskin of Pastors and laiety. When the fame and glory comes the Leaders they want to be apart of it and gain the influence, anointing, popularity and financial benefits, without Labouring for it but as soon as it departs if they no longer can gain from it. They run and hide. Sounds like the typical Shepard’s of John 10 who are hirelings. Rick Joiner feed this guy on the "We are the last revival move of the holy spirit. We are kicking it off. Did God suddenly change his mind< Where is the sorry from these so called fathers who all rode this guy and feed him falsities. God had no choice but to aloow this whole Movement to be stopped. When “THE TRAGIC SCANDAL of GREASY GRACE”- by J. Lee Grady. . compared Todd to a man who slept with his Mother. , she Quoted Paul actually delivered the unrepentant Corinthian man to Satan "for the destruction of his flesh" (5:5) so that he could be saved. In our day more then 50% of Christians divorce each other so who will throw the first stone and at whom? Is Grady now better then Todd? So now, are we will saying it is the same sin to sleep with your Mother as to fall into sin with another woman. How can anyone in so called Christianity feel good anymore?. Maybe God will give them a wilderness next so they may have mercy and learn compassion towards people. This was posted to destroy a man who they gained popularity by, and prophesied to about how they “The Apostles” or “The Fathers” would go to the nations. be the "last" move of the spirit. The Bickles, Hayford, Jones, Joyner, Cain, Johnson, Deere, Cunningham, Bright, Wagner, and most vineyards. While the real Remnant looks from a distance. They said “The Call” not a call. The eleventh Hour has not yet come but they tried to control something that’s was suppose to be a God thing turned it into an unclean thing again. One thing they got right was the worse enemy to a new move of God will be Last past one. Out of the mouth of babies. When we were suppose to be spoken of and have some maturity we are less then babies in diapers. Even the cirrus could not compete to us now. When will we stop following “Amma” and spirits like this and get back to Christ maybe through repentance of heart or prayer and go back to the God of our true fathers. They have built the Kingdoms of man and ask us to worship them but can we choose another way. |
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Globalgospel
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"heart for Africa?" Lets just pray NOW for the "elders" in charge. TB began 'Lakeland' saying "his heart" was still towards 'moslem N. Africa' (where he had success in calling out "whose god, gods is the true healer today" and was hoping Lakeland 'profits' would send him back to the hungry for healing physically of them THERE). In these 'last of the last days' God continues to give the Moslem World 'dreams and visions' (not unlike TB and his new bride). As result they come to Christ (even amidst great persecutions). Maybe the persecutions of the newly married (now out of U.S. and not Canada anymore) will continue to have their "hearts" for that 'strategic' now field? |
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contend4thef8th
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Globalgospel is delusional........ Globalgospel, sadly, is delushional Bondslavenchrist said to Globalgospel, "Where did you get this idea from? This is NOT what the scripture says at all. WHo are you listening to? Do you honestly believe what you wrote here is the truth? Where do you see those words written?" 2 Thessalonians 2 9 This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. 11 So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Globalgospel
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large crowds or to just one? Think about it folks. It is a natural thing for a true believer to want to minister to others. It is a ministerial thing to walk away from a revival of significant attendance and monetary supply for missions for to minister to just ONE and start all over again. Most do not do this, but try to hang on until FIRED by God even before the entire revival gathering. This one HERE was obviously frustrated with not only his help in ministry, but his supposed 'helpmate' in ministry, and this for years and years. The frustrations obviously were also effecting 'his peace' in ministry. He stepped down voluntarily, EVEN then chose to be a minister of just only ONE and starting all over again (as if at the first of his callings). This tells me the man might just be also a modern other "man after God's Own Heart", even in seeking his new start 'Bathsheba' over any, all previous 'helpmate' vows and promises, even willing to step down in order to completely start all over again. No wonder the critics of revival have come out of the woodwork for this one. They smell blood. But it's not the blood of their 'own cross' but always the blood of only that other's 'picked up' cross which each must be 'born alone'. This tells me the true 'greasy grace' pundits of today's 'Kingdom Now' doctrines, now steeped wholly in Nicolaiten catholic, and Nicolaiten 'reformed' catholic creeds, are the reason for the testings which still coming forth from Lakeland, and from God and us all then get a 'good reading' on their true hearts and lives of GREASE of Balaam and Calvins ideas of grace. Remember, it is God who sends 'dillusions' |
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contend4thef8th
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Globalgospel's false view on "Divorcement the Biblical Way" GG said "According "to the law" one must give the other a "bill of divorcement" before moving on to another relationship of man and wife. If the "laws of God" allowed (because of 'hardness' of heart) divorces, how much more do the laws of the land also allow for bills of divorcement. " Globalgospel you still continue to mangle the Word as usual. The OT no longer counts. Jesus had met all it's requirements and fulfilled all the law demanded. There no longer is any reason for divorce. Jesus stated in Matthew 5:31-32, "It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." So there is no more putting away, and if it is done than no remarriage. So, GG, if you want to disobey the Lord, if you want to mangle the gospel, if you want to be rude and vulgar in your emails to me. I can't do anything for you. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... dandick, Wonderfully said. We need to remember that even though God does love us, HE ALSO DEMANDS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS from us. WITHOUT HOLINESS NO ONE SHALL SEE THE LORD, let alone enter the Kingdom of God! A true Parent will love the erring child and discipline that child even though it hurts both parent and child. If the child were to grow up and CONTINUE in it's irresponsible ways and continue to be disobedient and disrespectful, that is when the parent may disown that child. But the parent is always looking for the opportunity to forgive the prodigal IF THE PRODIGAL WILL TRULY REPENT AND TURN FROM HIS WICKED WAYS!!!! This is part of what you said dandick and we all need to recognize that God is loving but also He is SEVERE! He BOTH at the same time!!!! He is NOT just loving without severity! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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Globalgospel
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Divorcement the Biblical Way According "to the law" one must give the other a "bill of divorcement" before moving on to another relationship of man and wife. If the "laws of God" allowed (because of 'hardness' of heart) divorces, how much more do the laws of the land also allow for bills of divorcement. Christians should not violate the Biblical Laws of God by living in any kind of fornication (which includes 'commonlaw' fellowships and the 'commonlaw' raising of children). Let's be clear HERE, if someone cannot live with the other (considering the other to be an 'unbeliever') and wants to leave than "let them also get a bill of divorcement" and not skip this process and live in 'fornication' of today's 'commonlaw' which truly is 'common' in THIS world. People who believe they are properly serving God's Laws by obstaining from giving a 'bill of divorcement' (when they in their HEARTS are not only wounded in their marriages, but are irreconcilable also in their 'hardness' of their hearts) and continue to live in strife and dissolusions and even improperly raise their kids in this violence of 'hard hearts' for years and years, SHOULD NOT THINK they are pleasing God by attempting to stay in this "hardness" of their "hearts". Also as to the Arthur Blessit comparisons now brought forth on the eve of the Arthur Blessit movie, we can only point out the willingness of some to distribute the 'lies' which only come to the angry and "hard hearts" of this world of last days harvest time. DON'T LET SATAN CAUSE ANY OF YOU, REGARDLESS, TO BE FOUND "BEATING YOUR FELLOW SERVANTS" also 'caught in these last of the last days nets'. The first thing to do if one finds their hearts are still "hard", yet have not flopped out of the 'nets' yet, is to consider "the LAW" of "BILL" allowed and let the local Courts of the Land work with them if at all reconciliations possible? |
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dandick
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The right to restore Todd Bentley back into ministry Perhaps what we should be praying and fasting for is for the Lord to refine his Church, His pastors, His apostles, His leadership, and His congregation with a refining fire that is hot enough to produce pure gold and burn out the dross. We need a spirit of love and forgiveness, but we cannot continue to go on with this whorehouse church mentality. Nor can we go with a legalistic one. There is no use trying to build a house without the Lord's help. Obviously, with all the hoopla and nonsense going on it appears we fall into the trap fo becoming a bunch of cruel, mean hearted judgmental whores and prostitutes bragging about our own qualitifications and greatness without an ounce of submission or humility or honesty or backbone or competence to tell the truth in love. We need to repent and pray. The Bible was very clear. It says, "If my people... which are called by my name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways then I will hear their prayers and forgive their sins and heal their land. God is truthful. He is not a liar. If our prayers are not being heard, if our sins are not being forgiven, if our land is not being healed, then at least one of four things must be wrong. Are we humble? If we tear ourselves down, call ourselves stupid and ugly or unable to do what God commands, we haven't been humble. We have only insulted the quality of God's creation in us. Humility has more to do with taking responsibility for ones bad choices and confessing sin. Laying down our excuses and calling them lies. Repenting of making excuses before God. Repenting of blaming others for our wrongs. Repenting from making bad judgments and sheltering others from their responsibility, too. Humility is surrender. It is admitting and realizing God's ways are infinitely higher than ours and if we find imperfection with God, it is only because of our lack of ability to see and comprehend perfection and not because of any imperfection on God's part. Any time we justify sin, we prove we are arrogant and proud. Every time we justify sin, we declare we are right and God is wrong. We have to stop doing that. If we're humble, then chances are we're doing the other things right. But, do we pray? Or do we get discouraged? Is it a chore or a burden to pray? It is hard because we don't get answers? Are we afraid that this will prove we are praying amiss? That we are praying selfishly? Are we afraid we won't get an answer to prayer and will be called upon to give an answer why? Are we afraid that will make us uncomfortable? Are we afraid we may have to lie to cover up God's lack of response to our prayers? If you're a Christian, you cannot go without prayer. You cannot live without prayer. Prayer is your life blood. You cannot be satisfied with rattling off words into an empty room or making a big show of your ability to speak in pseudo-1611 King James English. You need intimacy with God. You need connection. You need a dialogue -- not a monologue. You don't want to feel like the little kid in the room going Mommy, Mommy, Mommy or Daddy, Daddy, Daddy but getting continually ignored. Whatever it takes, you need attention and you need to give attention to God. Lack of intimacy is worse than death to the Christian. We need God. Do we seek God's face, or do we just seek stuff we can get from Him? Are we like the bratty little kid that says, "please, please give me my toy" and runs off or worse, the kid who does not look at the giver at all but just says, "Gimme that" and yanks it away without a thought or concern for the Giver? Are we like the little kid who wants to be looked at all the time? We should be. Are we saying, "Look, Daddy"? Or are we hiding from view? Do we abuse people, curse, swear, lust, and live in sin and then get all holy whenever a preacher comes around? Do we try to hide our sins, then excuse them, then blame them on others, then defend them as though they were benevolent or unavoidable? Are we like Adam and Eve hiding because they did not want God to see them naked? I'm not promoting nudity, but rather openess and honesty before God. Have we turned from our wicked ways? Which of the four things are we failing to do? Can we have prayer for a refining fire to sweep the church? Are we afraid? Maybe we should be. Maybe this is a situation where we should be pressing into our fears and praying for this refining fire anyway for the love of God, for the love of the Church, for the love of our nation and our world so that we don't continue down the path of becoming a hell bound house of whores and liars and cowards and thieves. This is a serious matter. |
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contend4thef8th
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Thanks Bondslavenchrist Thanks Dirk will do. Do you have a web site? Frank This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... contend4thef8th Anything that I write is free to be used by anyone. I only ask that whoever does so keeps the whole content together (no editing) That prophecy belongs to the Lord and was given to His people whever they are. Please distribute it as you see fit! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
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RPT asks.... Rpt said, "Has anyone yet asserted that there was any even remotely scriptural justification for the divorce? If so, I missed it." There is no scriptural justification for divorce. Yes, you missed it. Jesus, speaking from a Jewish viewpoint (of course), said in Matt. 5: 31-32, "31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication [modern texts mistranslates fornication], causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." and in Matt 19: 8-9, "8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication [modern texts mistranslates fornication], and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." It's quite simple, if, one wants to really get to the heart of the matter. Within the eastern countries of the world a vow and a promise are taken quite seriously, unlike in the Western world today. The Jewish people still hold marriage between two people quite sacred. When a couple becomes engaged, the Jewish people see them as if already married, with the exception of the consummation of the marriage. It was the same in the New Testament. Note these revealing references: Also, Yahshua says that when a couple becomes engaged they are bound together; however, He says only for the cause of fornication can the engagement be terminated. He goes on and says that if the one that is divorced marries another, he or she will be causing the person they marry also to commit adultery. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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rpt
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To Bonds.... Thanks for the clarification. Mrs' B's grounds for divorce seem to be beyond question. I meant that no one has offered any scriptural justification for TB's divorcing her. The arguments are only over whether he is being "judged" or derpived of "grace" or can or should be "restored". |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... rpt said "Rationale for the divorce? Has anyone yet asserted that there was any even remotely scriptural justification for the divorce? If so, I missed it. " Do you mean other than MRS Bentley having the grounds of adultery on Todd? No, no one has given any good reason for the divorce by TB, NOR has ANYONE given even 1 lousy reason to accept Tood back into ministry no matter how much supposed restoration takes place because he divoreced and remarried without biblical grounds. As one person asked eaerlier, WHERE is the restoration for TB's former wife? (Sorry, I do not recall her name) Where is the ministry to and for her? WHy is RJ making such a big deal out of "resotring" TB and leaving her completely out of it? What does that say about RJ? Is that NOT preferential treatment? What does James say about that? We could go on and on about this showing time and again how much all of these "ministers" and "leaders" are doing so much good, BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO REALITY, THEY ARE PROTECTING THEIR OWN AND THEIR OWN MEAL TICKET! Enough scriptureal evidence has been given on this thread and on the STRANGE FIRE thread to cause any TRUE CHRISTIAN ORGANIZATION to have nothing more to do with TB, RJ, any of the supposed prophets who promoted TB in Lakeland, along with several other "ministers" and "leaders". So explain why Charisma has NOT denouced ALL of these people and groups? PUBLICALLY? Explain why we continue to see article after article promoting these false prophets and apostles? Charisma and ANYONE who supports TB, RJ, or any of the other "prophets" are doing so at the expense of any scriptural authority to do so and are treading on very thin ice, ESPECIALLY in this end time climate. The end is coming VERY SOON and very quickly will be upon us all. The Lord spoke back on the morning of 9/11 and said>>>> 1130am September 11, 2001 Today is the beginning! America has joined the ranks of the nations of unrest, of no peace. From now on, peace will begin to leave this country. There will be no peace unless you come to ME! For I am shaking everything that can be shaken. I will be exalted above all things, above all the things of man. I WILL be the ONLY Place of Peace! This is a call to the People of God to come out from the world. It is past time to come together to be united in Christ Jesus. There can be NO MORE divisiveness. NO MORE Contention. I AM cleansing MY people MY temple! I AM preparing them for MY GLORY! For only as you become ONE with each other of all MY people, will you truly begin to shine with MY GLORY! I AM calling MY people to ME. There will be NO peace in circumstances. There will be NO peace outside of MY RULE over your lives! I WILL be exalted and I WILL have all the GLORY! Come to ME and I will cause MY GLORY to shine thru you! (END) My friends, brothers and sisters, Either we submit UTTERLY to the Rule of GOd OVER EVERYTHING in our lives INCLUDING what WE think is right or wrong, good or bad, OR GOD DOES NOT RULE OVER US! It is the CHOICE of each person who reads these words. a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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rpt
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Rationale for the divorce? Has anyone yet asserted that there was any even remotely scriptural justification for the divorce? If so, I missed it. |
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dandick
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Tom Winfield Hi Tom, That's OK. I'm sorry, I did not want to give you the impression that I was offended in any way by anything you said. I appreciate what you said very much and agree heartily. I just felt that what you said made a good springboard for bringing out a concern I had over one difficulty many people in the church have in dealing with divorce and I wanted to bring out one particular issue of concern that was on my heart, not so much for myself, but for those who have suffered rejection and abandonment and blame themselves. I thought what you shared made a great springboard for addressing that issue. Thanks! |
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tomwinfield77
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Dandrick, my reply My friend--I was speaking in a general sense, concerning getting right with God, because I went through the same kind of thing myself. I did not mean to send you searching for what exactly you did wrong while you were married to her. But I know that in any relationship we do things that do not build up the other person, or things that disappoint the other person. I am not suggesting that her sin of adultery and abandonment is yours. No, I was speaking of what to do when the marriage goes South, and you cannot do a thing about it. In order to start over, you go to the Lord, tell Him in a general sense that you're sorry for what you did to hurt things, and you're sorry for not doing things that might have helped; and since that covers the whole ballgame, you ask the Lord to forgive you, wash you with His blood, and lead you on. And, in your case, you asked Him to do the leading...and it looks like He did. She is the one who committed adultery, and left you, and would not return; so you are free from her; and free to remarry. Only the legalists want to confine you to a life alone. |
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dandick
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Remarriage I appreciate what Tom Winfield had to say about remarriage, OT and NT legalism, forgiveness and such. I am a strong believer in the grace and forgiveness of God. I also support what Rick Joyner says about forgiveness for sin and not for excuses. Tom made one point about seeking the Lord and asking forgiveness for any part I, or anyone had in the breakup of their marriages. There is a commonly held belief that with every divorce both parties are at fault, that even the faithful spouse must have given the unfaithful spouse cause for desiring or seeking the divorce, and therefore it is important that the faithful spouse who loses out and is abandoned needs to seek forgiveness, seek to take responsibility for his or her part, and make sure that this problem is not carried into a future relationship to cause damage there as well which may lead to another failure. There is a lot of wisdom in that way of thinking, but I see another danger that wreaks havoc today. First, there is a family of problems that tend to hang around and support one another. One problem is blame casting and the other is taking too much blame or taking responsibility for the bad decisions of another person to sin. While it may feel a little satisfying, it often comes with a sense of wrongness about it, and there is a good reason for this -- taking blame for another person's sin can enable the person in sin to continue. To put this into perspective, I may be guilty of some wrong doing that may have brought discomfort to my wife. There were times I spent too much time at the computer working and did not give her enough attention. Some would say this had a part in her seeking out an affair. Truth is, taking blame for another person's sins can be counter productive and damaging to a relationship, and it can produce the worst kind of tyranny where one person lives in sin while another blames himself or herself. There are codependency dynamics throughout this problem. Therefore it is very important to make sure responsibility goes together with the power to decide. If one person has the power to make bad decisions while another punishes himself or herself for things outside their control, the relationship will become very unhealthy very fast. Thank you again for sharing!!! ========================== Another thing I wanted to address very quickly is something contend4thef8th brought up. ==>Contend4thef8th asked me, "Is Jesus' view not scriptural, his ideas willy nilly?" Jesus' view? You run off with your own rendition of God's Word with pseudo-jewish terms and then attempt to obligate everyone to agree with you lest they be accused of opposing God. That's more the characteristic of the accuser of the brethren than that of sincere Godly humility and integrity, isn't it? I don't oppose God's Word. I disagree with your rendition of it, and I don't find your arguments effective in showing my views to be unscriptural. You've shown me well that I disagree with your rendition of scripture, but that is all you have shown. If you give me reason to believe I have taken a wrong understanding of scripture, I will at once give up my view and accept the one that is correct. So far, you have not done that. You have only asserted your rendition of scripture with a thus saith the Lord, and that causes me to want to forget about reading anything further you have to offer because I would not expect to find sincere Christian wisdom in such a manner of writing. You may find my writing to be likewise, and at this point I think we might choose to part ways on this issue and leave it at that. I'm sorry to everyone else who has to read this... |
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contend4thef8th
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Globalgospel I got your email you sent. Globalgospel said in the email he sent to me, "Seems you no longer keep up with Charisma 'threads' on the subject of divorce and remarriage (or did we see this incorrectly)? Also seems you want someone to talk to on this subject (posting your email many ,many times over)? Also you called out global on the threads many times also (before quiting?) So here goes anyway, but privately only. Are you planning to continue masturbation or be able to wait on that also until your ex dies? Or is your stated handicap related to this subject also? Fornication might have been a problem of BOTH as to these Churched divorces who have also found themselves unequally yoked together. When one leaves (as you claim you must) you are far too apprised you also then 'free up' the other. Seems you are only constantly telling on yourself. Your hoping your ex does NOT find another also? Or is your divorcing also based upon 'insecurity re: finances' (that besetting sin also called for the 'love of having legal tendar at all times')? In any event, so far, you have flunked as to becoming an apologist for THE faith, but maybe not as to YOUR own faith, so far. You see, every person has a set of totally different circumstances. Even you. You try to use the Bible on your soon to be ex, we can only be certain. Why not just try to be a humble human being toward her. Be understanding and see both yourselves as 'journey' thru the 'wilderness' of this planet. Neither of you asked to be born in this tiny blue marble. Both of you (most highly likely) will 'stand up again' in that 'next life' soon to come (sooner than either of you think). As to your question you ask publically at Charisma? Global means more than only one Globe has been built by our Lord. This Globe is just a 'copy' of three (where you probably will again meet up with your soon to be ex in the afterlife). Try your best to get your own starting blocks for the race ahead lined up corrected and strait to run your race (after your putting off of your dust body here). As to your concern about Universalism teachings, the ONLY people who will NOT leave this HELL here, and are bound to the soon fire coming upon this planet, are people who have become Twice Dead, AND plucked up by the roots. In other words, the truly saved who have gotten out of the nets, even out of the boat of these last days, and not only have become dead again in their trespasses and sins AND have blasphemed the Holy Spirit in grieving Him as a third strike against God (as Satan Himself Who after His Third Strike was also Plucked Up By the Roots, and will eventually also be tossed out of Heaven to this tiny ON FIRE planet). See that in all your studying and apologetics you also keep from any type of third strike you, or cause others to make who are in your sphere of influences. THERE IS A REAL ETERNAL HELL WITH FIRE AND IT HAPPENS TO BE WHERE YOU AND YOUR SOON TO BE EX (BUT HOPEFULLY NOT) WERE BORN, BUT NOT BY YOUR OWN CHOICE. hOWever, IF both of you have been born again, you also both become eligible also (by your own choices) to be twice dead also. Hopefully neither of you will become among those who are on notice as 'plucked up' "by the roots" of salvation and freedom which comes by our choices." Like RJ when you cannot dispute the facts you attack me personally. Shame on you. |
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contend4thef8th
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To tomwinfield77 Tom said, "Why are you so determined to overthrow Grace and God's provisions for us?" Is Romans 6:1-2 still in your Bible? 1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? |
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tomwinfield77
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... Dear contend4thef8th--If the person continues to commit adultry/fornication, then they have not repented, have they? Meaning they will not be forgiven until they turn from it, right? So what is your problem? Why are you so determined to overthrow Grace and God's provisions for us? Why are you so hung-up in legalities, spouting them heartlessly like a machine gun spraying bullets? Have you never sinned the same sin a second time? Some have besetting sins that require a lot of help from the Spirit before they get free of them; and forgiveness and cleansing is a huge part of that process. But if I get into the details of that, it will set you off again. Sorry if I sound a bit miffed, but you make God look like a scrawny, mean old man with a big switch. And you actually seem to think that when we preach love and forgiveness and reconciliation and restoration that we are giving others a license to sin. But it is the very love of God, the forgiveness of God, that wins a sinner's heart and turns him around. Have you never sung, "He Won Me By His Grace?" By the way you talk, I must assume that you've never tangibily experienced the love of God yourself. But again, who is saying God has no rules and no consequences? Who is saying that you can mock God and get away with it? Who is saying that you won't wreck yourself if you continue to break His commandments? Most of us know that the wages of sin are death--death to mind and soul. But if we say that God still offers us Grace, if we will turn to Him for help, you blow your top. My, my. I pray that you will have your own encounter with the transforming love of the Spirit of God. When you are this bound in the spirit of legalism, nothing else can help you. You are so eager to damn us all that we cannot listen to what you have to say, and you seem to know a lot. It is very plain that you have spent much time in scripture. But the spirit in which you handle it, and the legalism that has gotten hold of you, is something to behold. |
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tomwinfield77
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For Dandrick, you sound in good stead with God to me One thing, Dandrick--Experience with the Holy Spirit can never overrule Scripture. I am sure you know this, but the rather defensive way you wrote part of your blog on what happened to you, sounds like you heard from God himself and you don't want to hear anyone throwing scripture at you. It sounds like you had or have a fear of man, really. But I am glad to see you happily married this time. The Blood of Jesus covers any sin, for those who repent, and ask the Lord to forgive them. A very close and studious reading of 1 Cor 7--the big marriage chapter--tells me that you went more than the whole way in giving your first wife and marraige a chance to succeed. When you come out of something like that, you go to the Lord, confess whatever part you had in the failing of the marriage, ask Him to wash you with the Blood, and then you stand up and return to life. See 1 John 1:7-9; 2:1-2, 12. God wants to forgive us. He made this a clear path back to Him. He wants you to start over again. The Legalists who live under "the Law of the NT" and the "Law of the OT" make me wonder if they have ever known or expienced the Lord himself. When you do, you discover His tender, loving mercies, which He extends to us forever, and ever, and ever. You follow the path John gave us in First John, and God is pleased. Yes, I said He is pleased. That does not mean He has no rules, or consequences, but it means He wants to restore. So here's to many years of happy married life for you, Dandrick. I am glad that you let the Lord be the boss, and it is evident that because you did, He has blessed you. Don't let the Legalists mess with your mind any longer... You and your new wife just stay plugged into the Spirit of Jesus. If you do, when you hit potholes in the road--especially the unexpected kind--He will be right there, helping you in your relationship. I know... He did that for my wife and me. |
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contend4thef8th
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For dandick Dandick said, "Contend4thef8th brought out a doctrine that is held by many people that I sometimes think of as "the betrothal theory regarding remarriage". People who hold to this teaching hold to a belief that a person who is divorce can never remarry while their first spouse is still alive. Most of them also hold that this is true even though ones spouse had committed adultery." Later he said that, "Others contend for an interpretation that is too loose and open to adulterous marriages. I feel both extremes are unscriptural,,," Is Jesus' view not scriptural, his ideas willy nilly? And why are you quoting OT scripture that countermands what Jesus said in the NT? Scripture does NOT cancel scripture and you DON'T counterman the Lord either. Matthew 5, Jesus makes it clear when one can remarry. So who are we to say Jesus is right or wrong. Jesus said in Matthew 19: 8-9, "8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for fornication, and marries another woman commits adultery.' " Matthew 5:32 Jesus says fornication is the only excuse for remarriage. So, want to tell Jesus he's wrong? Modern versions translate fornication in various ways that dilute what Jesus is saying. You need to read the passage from a Jewish/Christian perspective. "Yahshua says that when a couple becomes engaged they are bound together; however, He says only for the cause of fornication can the engagement be terminated. He goes on and says that if the one that is divorced marries another, he or she will be causing the person they marry also to commit adultery."Paul makes it very clear that vows are still active until one or the other dies. You can read the full article here: http://www.yrm.org/divorceandre.htm This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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dandick
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About marriage and divorce and remarriage Contend4thef8th brought out a doctrine that is held by many people that I sometimes think of as "the betrothal theory regarding remarriage". People who hold to this teaching hold to a belief that a person who is divorce can never remarry while their first spouse is still alive. Most of them also hold that this is true even though ones spouse had committed adultery. Others contend for an interpretation that is too loose and open to adulterous marriages. I feel both extremes are unscriptural, or perhaps better said are twists man puts on the Bible with a jab saying, "There -- thus saith the Lord". I've heard both sides argue their case endlessly. Truth is we all need to lose our fear of man and get the fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom. The"betrothal theory" is inconsistent with Deuteronomy 24:1-4. Even so, people have wrenched this verse to suggest that a person who had already abandoned their spouse to marry into an adulterous relationship cannot repent, end the adulterous marriage and return to the one they originally made their vows to. This is a dishonest and twisted and all-too-common twisting of this scripture. Deuteronomy 24:1-4 tells us that if a man sends his wife away with a letter of divorce and she marries someone else, the first husband cannot take her back if the second husband dies or divorces her. This has nothing to do with willy-williy over-dispensationalized doctrines of convenience or man-made doctrines that bind and enslave more than God intended. The betrothal doctrine is plainly contradictory to the purposes and words of Christ when he gave the exception of adultery/fornication/immorality, and making those words work together with this betrothal theory takes a major fabrication and twisting that frankly makes no sense. Some say a homosexual person wrote this exception into scriptures. Scripture tells the believing spouse to stay with the unbelieving spouse if the unbelieving spouse wants to stay. It says to release the unbelieving spouse for the sake of peace if the unbelieving spouse wants to leave, and then the Bible tells those of us in that situation that we are no longer bound. Some try to twist in the notion that "bound" means "bound to serve" and not "bound in marriage". It really takes a major effort to twist scripture hard enough to maintain this nonsensical interpretation. It is one thing to abandon one's spouse for an adulterous relationship. It is an entirely different thing to be faithful and experience this abandonment and unfaithfulness forced upon you. If you're like me, you will forgive and attempt to keep the marriage together for years while your spouse forces you through a divorce and finally marries someone else. I can understand how someone may want to gather all the artillery they can find to feel morally and Biblically obligated to wait for their unfaithful spouse to return. Some people crave the vindication and need a sense of moral superiority this legalism can bring. Some just hurt and don't want to move on. Some want to hold to the past. When I went through this misery, I wanted to believe her affair would blow over and that our marriage would be restored. I bought books. I watched videos. I prayed and cried out to God for years. Years. It nearly drove me to suicide and atheism as I wondered where God was through all this. But, I needed to know I had done my best. I needed to know I would not go through life wondering whether I could have saved the marriage had I done more or prayed harder. And, should the worst happen and the divorce become final and should I remarry years later, I did not want my second wife to wonder whether I held the marriage vows with sincerity or not. So I contended for years. I contended past the point where pastors and counselors and friends told me I had been patient and had waited too long. I would not let myself be satisfied with the words and judgments of men, though I would take counsel to God in prayer. But, when the time came I felt God commanding me to take off the ring, I could no longer cower under the fear of man or disobey for the sake of pleasing men. I had to take the ring off whether the whole world came against me in judgment for doing so because in prayer, I felt God telling me to take off the ring. I felt naked. I wanted to hold onto other things to make it clear I was not on the market for another relationship. I not only needed time. I had no intention of moving on to another relationship without the guidance and leadership of God. And, God led and God provided, and God reaffirmed many times over with provisions. And, Eileen and I were married a little over a year ago. Given the chance to do it again, I would gladly marry her again. And, I have God's approval and leading on this whether some disagree or not. |
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contend4thef8th
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Reply to tomwinfield77 Tomwinfield77 said, "Suppose that--before the man remarries--he confesses His sin of divorce to God, and repents of it, and goes back to his ex--who will not take him back? And he goes back to her four more times, but she will have no part of it." Forgive me that I was harsh but Jesus made it very clear that, NO REMARRIAGE after divorce unless it's because of fornication. It needs to be seen in the light from a Jewish perspective: http://www.yrm.org/divorceandre.htm. The link will take you to a messianic Jewish site. Some of it I will mention here. In Matthew 1:18-19 are about Mary, his mother, and Joseph, her husband. "Through these accounts we can understand the following key facts: 1. Joseph and Mary were engaged, betrothed, but not married. 2. Even though the two were not married, the Bible referred to Joseph as Mary’s husband, as if already together. 3.Joseph sought to divorce her, even though they were not officially married. Again, this account is the only account of an actual or attempted divorce in the entire New Testament. If we consider the key facts and apply these facts to Matthew 5:32, we can say that Yahshua is speaking of an engaged couple, and not a married couple! Therefore, Yahshua said that the only cause for divorce is fornication, not adultery. Fornication is pre-marital sex. In Matthew 1 it is quite clear that Yahshua was speaking of engagement. This is clearly brought out through Joseph’s and Mary’s example, the ONLY example Yahweh presented in the New Testament concerning a divorce. Yahshua says that when a couple becomes engaged they are bound together; however, He says only for the cause of fornication can the engagement be terminated. He goes on and says that if the one that is divorced marries another, he or she will be causing the person they marry also to commit adultery. This raises an important question: Why after the divorce does one who remarries still commit adultery against the one they have divorced (see Romans 7:1-3). The answer is that the marital VOW they previously made still stands. And in Yahweh’s eyes they are still married (if they had consummated that marriage, of course)." I KNOW God has forgiven you your sins, etc. But you have to realize so many Christians, more influenced by culture than Word of God, just assumed it is right to remarry. This thing with TB has made me reread scripture on this topic and seek out info from other well instructed Christians. I will soon be in the same boat, divorce wise. After 7 years of trying to restore my marriage, and every attempt for reconciliation failing I plan to divorce my wife this year. It will be a mess as I am a pastor, on disability, but still it will have an effect in our circle especially our adult children. I would have eventually remarried had this TB stick not be a wake up call for obedience to the Word. My apologies again, that my original statement offended you. But I choose to stand by the Word than avoid hurting someone's feeling. One can "believe" all they want, but in the end it is about obedience not belief. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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rpt
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Definitions are good.... restoration definition res·to·ra·tion (res′tə rā′s̸hən) noun 1. a restoring or being restored; specif., 1. reinstatement in a former position, rank, etc. 2. restitution for loss, damage, etc. 3. a putting or bringing back into a former, normal, or unimpaired state or condition." Getting back to the former position and rank. "Restoration" is the word chosen by RJ and TB to describe what they are doing. RJ is a very careful writer, and no doubt he chose this word carefully. He is not working to heal TB, or provide compensation to those harmed, or re training TB, or rehabilitating TB, or having him get a real job like most of us (that is, working for a living rather than seeking "support", as even Ted Haggard was forced to do, as if that was some terrible punishment) but rather just getting him back up to his prior rank and position as fast as possible. Work as a volunteer, as Jim Bakker did at the Dream Center? No. Cleaning toilets, i.e., starting off at the bottom as an example of servant leadership, as described by Graham Cooke? Taking time off outside of the television spotlight? No. Instead there will be a weekly "show" focused on TB. By their own words, you can see what matters most. |
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rpt
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The simplest question... TB wanted to get divorced (because the marriage was painful, difficult, etc, etc) and wanted to get remarried (so he can have sex within marriage and more children), and he wants to get right back up on the stage in ministry (no comment as to his motives for this). He doesn't "need" to get remarried, and he doesn't "need" to go back in ministry. He just "wants" it. Does he get what he wants or not? Do we get what we want? Are our "wants" the most important thing? Isn't that what his supporters are asserting, that his wants supersede everything? |
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tomwinfield77
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The blood of Jesus can cleanse us of all sin...even remarriage This is for \n This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it '> This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it --You made quite a blanket statement, saying that every divorced Christian who remarries while their "ex" is still alive is going to Hell. Suppose that--before the man remarries--he confesses His sin of divorce to God, and repents of it, and goes back to his ex--who will not take him back? And he goes back to her four more times, but she will have no part of it. So now that he has made himself right with God, he walks with Him, and years later he meets a Christian woman and they fall in love and marry. Is he still on your list of who is going to Hell? As for divorce and remarriage being an unforgivable sin, which is what you are making of it, have you not read 1 John 1:7-9, 2:1-2, 12? Those verses concern confession of sin, repentance, and cleansing by the blood. Do you not know that our God is known as a God of restoration? And have you not read where Jesus said the only unforgivable sin concerns attributing the works of the Spirit of God to the devil (with an evil heart)? And do you not know that if you repent of doing such a wicked thing, the blood of Jesus will make you clean again? Hmmm... You make a big to-do about Ashleigh not knowing scripture. But how about yourself? How easily you consign certain Christians to Hell. You sound like you have come under "the Law of the New Testament" for salvation, instead of Grace that is received by faith--by believing on Jesus' sacrifice for sin and adhering to it. So am I saying that it's okay to marry and divorce, and marry and divorce, and marry and divorce? Absolutely not, for scripture says that God cannot be mocked; you will reap what you sow. And what will you reap? A hardened heart... A perverted personality... Guilt that eats at you night and day because of the hurt you leave behind... And if you hold God's grace cheaply, you might be flirting with Hell: Hebrews 6:1-8 and Romans 11:20-23 make it very clear that people who were saved can end up without it--but even this has to do with continuing to believe in Christ, versus letting go of your faith. But if a callous heart turns back to God in repentance and brokenness, then no matter how many times they married and remarried, He will take them back again. In Romans 11:23, Paul tells us that if the Jews who killed Christ Jesus should turn to God in belief in Christ, He will graft them back into the tree. The very purpose of Jesus coming was to save as many as he possibly could; and the God who sent Him has that same purpose. God looks at eternity in Hell, and eternity with Him, knowing our present life is only temporary. His great perspective of reality lies behind His purpose to save every one that He can. I once knew a man who had been married 5 times. He got saved, gave his life to Christ, and started a church where he told of his sin and God's grace with such impact that untold numbers came to Christ; and untold numbers of Christians were encouraged in their compassionate, forgiving God. Once you see what the Blood of Jesus can cover, it greatly tempers your zeal for rules and regulations being the way to Heaven. No one can keep them perfectly. The only righteousness any of us have is the righteousness of God, which He reckons to us because we accept Jesus (2 Cor 5:21). God's forgiveness is great for those who turn to Him in Christ. ...We are not speaking of Cheap Grace. But Real Grace. Bible NT Grace. But again, it is very true that if you continue in sin--marrying and divorcing, in this case--you will truly pay for it. You will suffer as you reap from breaking God's commandments. You will not get off scott free. And you will cause immeasurable hurt to others--your spouse, your children, the family of your spouse, and your own. But if such a sinner turns back to God in true repentance, they will be forgiven; and if a married couple where both were married and divorced before their union, come to God on their knees confessing their sin of divorce, God will forgive and help them with the new marriage if they come seeking Him to help them. God is greater than any of the scriptures we make into hardbound Law. |
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contend4thef8th
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I've noticed.... I have noticed that when people like RJ, BH, and TB make claims of "heavenly visions and visitations" that many Christians just accept it at face value. Their experience cannot be proven nor disproven. Their exaggerated claims should also be the norm for any Spirit filled Christian BUT when it is not, should be suspect. We of the Yet many false religious leaders, who make the same exaggerated claims, are ignored by us. Why? What makes the above more credentialed (that which entitles one to confidence, credit, or authority.) than the fakes? Our brethren, those of the non-pentecostal/charismatic persuasion have set up hundreds of sites revealing the doctrinal error of such people mentioned above, and we dismiss them as "blind" fools. Who is more so blind, them or us? I'm thinking us. We, of the pentecostal/charismatic persuasion, ALWAYS ASSUME that ones anointing, calling and gifting MEANS said persons has GOD'S APPROVAL. Not so. We forget godly character to our shame. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For Ashleigh.... Ashleigh said, "It seems barely anyone even knows the facts about what has happened in this situation. If many of you were in the same situation, many of you would have succumbed to the same temptation to quit fighting for the marriage to work." Ash, I stopped reading after this line. Sorry. But it clearly shows you are ignorant of God's Word about the situation. It's not just about TB's excuse for the divorce. But his adultery issues (twice), being a bigamist (2 wives), drunkenness (repeatedly), lying (often), etc. Godly men do not participate in such. It's all about godly character, of which, TB has none. Whatever his excuses or reason for leaving the first marriage, he SHOULD NOT have remarried, hence, defying Jesus' commandment. And saying sorry is not enough, TB commits adultery every time he and Jessa have sex. It's an ongoing sin not covered by forgiveness and adulterers DO NOT go to heaven. Period. Yes, that includes every Christian who remarried while their "ex" was still alive. TB does not WANT restoration and discipline. But he needs to, yet he has defied even RJ and married Jessa while under RJ's "restoration process." TB needs "spanking" for being a bad boy in the body of Christ. In other words Hebrews 12: 5-8. TB DOES NOT want to go through that. Restoration includes discipline. RJ is not really doing it. Anointing, calling and gifting does not prove one has God's approval (all Christians are anointed, called and gifted). It is character and obedience that counts. In a recent OpenHeaven email I got David Ryser has this to say after his recent visit to Toronto, "I've discovered in this season of my life that God is far more concerned with the quality of my character than He is in my anointing, calling, and gifting. Although we highly esteem anointing, calling, and gifting--and promote and exalt people based upon these--God does not regard these as highly as character (1 Corinthians 13:1-3)..." He goes on further to state, "Why does God discipline His children? He does so for the same reason that an earthly father disciplines his children. The purpose of discipline is to develop character in the child." So TB rejects true discipline from God, thus making him a spiritual bastard (Hebrews 12:8) in the kingdom. Him and Jenna both. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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dandick
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Restoration? I am greatly disappointed with Rick Joyner as he is one I have deeply respected for many years. The harvest is ripe and the need for ministers is great, but that is no excuse to send in harvesters to take the harvest to hell with lying, adultery, and cowardice that coddles and fears man. The notion that love requires supporting sin is a lie. Just the opposite is true. If you truly love people and if you truly love Todd Bently, quit lying to him, quit telling him he is OK dumping his wife for another woman and continuing in the ministry. Quit telling him he is OK to be in the ministry in his condition. Tell him that he is going to hell if he does not repent. Tell him that if he pretends to repent without laying the ax to the root of his adulterous fake-marriage and that if he does not honor the vows he made to Shonah, he will go straight to hell along with this other woman and everyone who knowingly lies supporting this sin. Revival begins with full surrender to Jesus Christ. Anything less is nothing but throwing God our garbage, which is exactly what Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley are doing. And if someone wants to call that mean and judgmental, they're free do to so. Nobody is a broker in regard to the issues of sin and salvation. We cannot compromise or cut deals. We can tell the truth or we can lie, and I am very saddened that today so many people seem to be satisfied telling lies in the name of "ministry". For certain if it is a ministry, it is most surely not a ministry of God if it involves lying and endorsing sin. Get a backbone and get some integrity and lay the ax to the root of sin and stop defending it. |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... (CONTINUED) And JUST SO WE DON'T FORGET, John tells us>>> 1Jn 5:18 We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. Until our doctrine of salvation includes these verses, our doctrine does NOT agree with the Bible and is a false doctrine! Sin does NOT need to be coddled. Neither does self-interest. God is not so much interested in how we feel about something but in whether or not we will obey Him from our heart. If the WHOLE CORRUPT CARNAL NATURE is DEAD and we have truly been given the DIVINE NATURE, we will respond like Jesus would. And before anyone will complain that we are not Jesus, look at this passage>>> 1Jn 2:4 Whoever says, I know Him [I perceive, recognize, understand, and am acquainted with Him] but fails to keep and obey His commandments (teachings) is a liar, and the Truth [of the Gospel] is not in him. 1Jn 2:5 But he who keeps (treasures) His Word [who bears in mind His precepts, who observes His message in its entirety], truly in him has the love of and for God been perfected (completed, reached maturity). By this we may perceive (know, recognize, and be sure) that we are in Him: 1Jn 2:6 Whoever says he abides in Him ought [as a personal debt] to walk and conduct himself in the same way in which He walked and conducted Himself. So, instead of trying to bring guilt upon all of those who are just saying what the scriptures say, perhaps we all need to make sure that our lives are being lived like the Bible says they are to be lived and that our doctrine of salvation INCLUDES ALL the verses that speak about salvation. including>> Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. By the way, JESUS said those words! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk (PS: I am sorry I had to split this up, but this format does not allow enough room to respond properly) |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... Dearest Ashleigh, Please, do not take this as an attack or in any way offensive. I have been there! I KNOW what it is to go through adultery, drug and alcohol addiction, fight with your spouse for YEARS, move forward with God, give up and go through the whole thing again. I am making this response VERY short for something that took over 12 years. Yet, when I gave up my life, my family, my wife, when I gave them to the Lord and decided I would follow Him no matter what, He showed both of us that HE is THE GOD OF RESTORATION! But still it took those 12yrs. We had to go through it and become willing to lay down our own lives in order to follow Him. NO PERSON RESTORED US; GOD DID! I know what it is, what God commands us to do and He expects us to do so. In Ephesians 5 we are COMMANDED to love our wives as Christ LOVED the Church. Did Jesus ever do anything wrong? Did Jesus sin? BUT did Jesus pay the penalty for the sin of the Church? Did He NOT take the blame for the wrong thing we all have done? THAT is how we are to love our wives!!! In fact, our responsibility TO GOD is to LOVE our wives; PERIOD! No matter HOW they treat us! Do you think I was not hurt? Do you think I did not hurt my wife? How foolish if you think so. But God said to me one day when I was angry at something she had done>>>>> "Why are you angry? I said, God, you know what she did. He said "Yes, but why are YOU Angry?" He really took the wind out of my sails, just when I was all set to justify my anger toward her. Then He told me that MY RESPONSIBILITY TO HIM was to Love Her! No matter HOW she treated me, even despite how she treated me, I was to love her! For you see, ONLY THAT kind of love will restore a marriage! The kind of love where we allow Him to put to death those hurts and in fact, He will put to death all of that self-seeking self-righteous, self-interest and also PUT TO DEATH THE WHOLE CORRUPT CARNAL NATURE and replace it with His OWN HOLY and RIGHTEOUS NATURE! (read Col 2:11 in Amplified) So I know whereof I speak. I know what it takes, You see although that incident happened in our lives back in the 80's, we are still married, are each other's best friend and will celebrate 34 yrs together this July. But we did not do that by giving in to our selfish desires. We did it by submitting to the Lord as HE COMMANDED; you know, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow ME! Remember what I John 3 says? 1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 1Jn 3:7 Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1Jn 3:8 [But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done]. 1Jn 3:9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God. (CONTINUED) |
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Ashleigh
said:
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Encouragement Out of a soft heart I'm asking all of you to read this slowly... and please, see my heart. Concerning many of the comments we need to actually make all these concerns helpful. Because as someone who is somewhat close to this situation with Todd Bentley, all the comments written here are not helpful but instead just make me feel like this is a popularity contest with Lee winning because you're on "his side". ... Which in reality, we are all on the same side. We are the body of Christ. If you hurt your arm, you just hurt yourself. And following this analogy I'm sure your thinking "well, if my arm was gangrene I'd cut it off." The only problem with this is that before you cut it off, or do a dangerous surgery to it, you need to make sure that you know that it is in need of it. Do you know what saddens me most about what many of you are writing following Lee's message about Todd Bentley-- It seems barely anyone even knows the facts about what has happened in this situation. If many of you were in the same situation, many of you would have succumbed to the same temptation to quit fighting for the marriage to work (again, many of you don't even know what the whole story is- but keep watching the videos Rick Joyner and Todd Bentley will be airing on MorningStar's website- these will explain ALOT about the situation). and you know what, I won't beat you down for your failure. I'd hold you to the truth and expect you to repent and acknowledge that you didn't do it right, but once you've made the mistake, it's not like I can beat you with a stick until you give me a tear. I believe much of the restoration process is coming to a full understanding of the fact that you did sin. Galatians says "If someone is caught in any sin... restore them gently." I'm not sure that when you catch someone in a sin they always fully realize everything they did wrong right at that moment. You have to work with them (if you care about them you will) and help them to see how it was wrong, but you cant just expect perfect fruit immediately. There has to be "grace to learn". And that doesn't mean justifying sin, that means not demanding instant maturity or instant healing of wounds. Sometimes people just aren't seeing clearly. We have to see who is willing to grow, and those people we can start the process with. It's the obsitinate and completely deceived people we may have to let go. But when people are showing they want help, but they're just hurt and need help to get there- these people we need to help. I believe Todd is one of those. Without character he won't ever be able to bear the fruit to God that God wants, so we need to pray for him and Rick and all those in that process. They need our prayers and encouragement... not our semi-fact rumor based criticism. We need to help. Many of you are on board with this angry message (and you know what, you should be angry about sin in the pulpit. You should be angry about leaders not holding proper standards), but step back for a second and look at what the whole "statement" you are making with your comments. You're basically portraying a self-righteous, inability to be mistaken persona through these comments. They don't make me want to listen to you. Now because the Lord has taught me this in my life, I realize I need to listen to people even if I don't like how they are saying what they're saying, because who knows, they may be right... They may not be saying it in a helpful manner, but they may be right. So I need to listen and pray. The problem is a few years ago I wasn't like this. I would've just blasted back out of emotion of the fact that many don't know the actual facts that they are so angrily commenting about. I would've been ticked and shot back viciously at you considering you to be doing Satans work. But you know what, those times when I did that, I was wrong. It didn't help anyone. It didn't encourage anyone to stop and think about what I was saying. And thats how many people are reading these comments- the lack of care is provoking them to not hear any of the good things you may say. I believe there are fewer times for this explosive anger than we think. I'm sure God looks for us to be ,as His word says, "slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to listen", more often. He is gracious. He is patient. He is just. He is righteous. He is all these things. We must use them all and see what the end result turns out to be. But lets not jump to conclusions, because if you're wrong... well, that snowball may be too big for you to stop at that point. And in this case, it is. We need to all pray together for each other, because we are ONE body. One. |
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Bondslavenchrist
said:
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... AMEN contend4thef8th!!!! globalgospel?? Perhaps the name shows us where you are coming from? Could it be that you are one of these new (old) everyone will be saved groupies? OR are you just part of the New World Religion? No matter what it is, as contend4thef8th said, you have NO understanding of what the scriptures teach. Let me attempt to say it another way. If anyone has a belief or a doctrine that does NOT agree 100% with ALL of the scripture verses on that subject, IT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE! Period! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
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Oops, I boo booed I said, "Obedience separates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares and the fake from the false. " Should have said, "Obedience separates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares and the real from the false. " |
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contend4thef8th
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For Globalgospel Globalgospel , I think you need a better understand of biblical interpretation. In Romans 2 that you quoted, you got the meaning all wrong. Paul was calling them, the Roman Christians, hypocrites for judging those who sin while they themselves were actually doing the same thing. It has nothing, nothing to do with Christians who obey the Lord. If these "christians" continue in sin on earth, they will die in sin w/o hope for any afterlife restoration. There isn't any afterlife restoration. When you're dead it's too late to repent or be restored. Romans 2 is a good warning to TB and RJ about what they are doing (and any Christian holding onto and actively sinning) , "8 But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness. 9 There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on doing what is evil—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile." Those of us who love God and who truly walk in the Spirit we have assurance of love, joy, acceptance and peace and not just salvation "10 But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile." Addressed to Jewish believers in Rome, Paul reminded them that it is obedience to the Word (i.e. law) that sets apart the real from the false, "13 For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight." Remember the OT statement, 1 Samuel 15:22? "But Samuel replied, 'What is more pleasing to the Lord: your burnt offerings and sacrifices or your obedience to his voice? Listen! Obedience is better than sacrifice, and submission is better than offering the fat of rams.' " Obedience separates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the tares and the fake from the false. BTW, you got to stop mixing up the "broad rd" and the "narrow rd" comments. It shows clearly you do not understand the significance. And what do you mean by, "....He denied them the intimacy required to enter into that "strait gate" of marriage where only the fully "restored" can enter in?" It makes no sense, especially the one about the 10 virgins, etc. You appear to be a confused and disoriented person. God gave us a sound mind and love and I will pray that you will start to experience it in your own life. Email me, I care. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Globalgospel
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Does God have a restoration process for sinners? Romans 2:17 onward (even to end of Chapter and Book) puts all this finger pointing against a restoration process in proper perspective. Have any of you (as married) looked upon another women/man with lust? Have any of you (as unmarried) looked upon a married women/man with lust? Have any of you lied (especially first to yourselves) as to what goes on in your own thought life? Are any of you in absolutely no need for ANY kind of "restoration process"? You better also HOPE for "restorations" in the "after life" also. When Jesus stated to those "broad road" people who thought they were also on the "narrow road" of pentecost, He denied them the intimacy required to enter into that "strait gate" of marriage where only the fully "restored" can enter in. The virgins who were "left behind" AND yet still had not made themselves ready in the NEXT life sure to come for ALL believers, were AGAIN told "I never as yet knew you intimately". The reason is clear, they had never submitted themselves for that "restoration process" God has for all those who not only recognize their OWN sin, but who are repentent about it in forsaking living in a sinful condition, whether in thought or deed... |
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contend4thef8th
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For Bondslavenchrist Bondslavenchrist, well said my friend. Very well said. I had originally decided to ignore globalgospel's recent post because it was obvious they were just not grounded in the scripture's. Taught bible study at church last night, shared how overwhelmed I was at TB's and RJ's deceit, but more so over the vast majority that posted, of whom, played fast and loose with the Word. It was enough to make an old disabled pastor cry. The upside? That there are still a few contenders for the faith out there, praise God. "Well done though good and faithful servant." This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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Bondslavenchrist
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The Broad Path is Good????????? globalgospel said>>>> "The prophetic movement (including the divorced) at least is on a road, "broad" being better than none at all. Yes it leads to "ruin". But in this life, the "best life" now, "RUIN" is good!!! " Talk about twisting the scriptures to make them mean what you want. What did Jesus actually say? "Mat 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it. Mat 7:14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it. [Deut. 30:19; Jer. 21:8.] " So we see that Jesus was talking about ETERNAL LIFE, NOT the ruin of this life. There is NOTHING GOOD about being on the broad path. Where does the Bible, or Jesus for that matter, say ANYTHING about those NOT being on any path? On and on the scriptures declare that SALVATION is ONLY for those who OBEY the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus even said this further along in Matt 7. "Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name? Mat 7:23 And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands]. [Ps. 6:8.] " These people THOUGHT they belonged to Jesus; they were doing all sorts of "good" things in His name, even to the point of performing miracles!!!! Yet Jesus tells them that HE never KNEW them, they were working inquity BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER, NOR DID HE REALLY KNOW THEM PERSONALLY! We are warned about prophets who prophesy out of their imaginations. Thta is EXACTLY what all of those prophetic people did who endorsed Todd Bently, especially during the Lakeland "revival". God did NOT speak through them. They were NOT prophesying nor were they led by the Holy Spirit!!!! Neither God nor the Holy Spirit were surprised about Todd Bentley; they knew exactly what was going on in his heart and in his life. Neither would they ever have endorsed anyone who was living in sin as TB was and is! Anyone who spoke a word of endorsement, blessing, or anything positive about TB especially during the Lakeland debacle is just as GUILTY of those sins as He is and is just as lacking the Holy Spirit! I would love to relent on this, so if you can show me any passage of scripture that support those who are walking in sin, where it says it is ok to walk in sin, OR that we will continue to sin for as long as we live on this earth, please show it to me. BUT according to all the passages of the Bible that I have ever read, NO ONE who practices sin has EVER even had an experiential encounter with the Lord! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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awillis5
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... Hello, I am a christian man who loves the Lord with all my heart and upholds the veracity of the word of God. Also, I know that I am only one person, but let me be plain and clear when I say Todd Bentely is a false teacher, Lakeland was not a revival, Stephen Strader should be ashamed of himself, he is a Pastor and should look out for his flock rather than mislead them. It still amazes me how many undiscerning christians follow anything and eveything without lining it up against the word of God. Addtionally, it was amazing all of the so-called prophets that prophesied over Todd Bentley and now look at his current situation. To me it is evident that God shined the light on that situation, hopefully christians will wake up and get back to the Bible. God Bless. |
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Globalgospel
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"fully restored and healed" This cannot happen to any of us UNTIL we pass on into the "next life" Jesus spoke to us about. This 'initial' life we find ourselves in can indeed be "our best life now" IF, and only IF we have found that "narrow road" running 'strait' within that "broad road". Ruin comes ONLY to those who have found only the "broad road". Of course, those who are not on any road at all have no hope whatsoever as to the "next" life. Read the story of Balaam once again, or more. It's not about his love for legal tender. It's all about his "doctrine", "way", "error" as a prophet. The prophetic movement (including the divorced) at least is on a road, "broad" being better than none at all. Yes it leads to "ruin". But in this life, the "best life" now, "RUIN" is good!!! |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... rich-western mass said "My point is where is the governmental part of the body ? We need leadership (LEE and Joyner) to get along please and lets bring more of the Father's love ,power, and sound thinking to our neighborhoods" Why do so many people continue to look to MAN for leadership? Please consider the following VERY CAREFULLY!!! There Was No King 09/29/2002 Judges 21:25 "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." There is a companion verse that says. "There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death." (Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25) Together these two verses point to many prophecies and teachings being spoken today to please the ears of the hearers. God has been showing me that there are some like Balaam, who have sold out their God-given gifts and anointing for personal gain. Are we too a people with no King and everyone does what is right in his own eyes, but the end of this way is DEATH? No matter where we go, we hear attitudes like: "Who are you to tell ME what to do? I can hear God just as well as anyone else!" "I know what the Bible says. That is YOUR interpretation, I don't agree with what you teach." "That is heresy!" No! That is biblical truth, what you preach is heresy and false teaching." "You are a false prophet!" God is showing me that the time is very soon coming when we cannot live this way any more! There MUST be a King in Christianity! We need a Real ruler to reign over us and STOP all of this bickering and infighting. God's original intention was that He reign over us and we obey His commands. Adam and Eve decided they wanted to make their own decisions. So did Israel. NOW, we the Church have done the very same thing! But people ask, "But how can this be? Who do we pick to reign over us? How can we agree on any one particular leader?" BUT there is already a Ruler over us all. It is NOT the Pope or any other earthly leader. We are in the Kingdom of God, so God MUST be the King! (link to rest of article>>>>> http://z12.invisionfree.com/Ap...wtopic=186 ) UNTIL we stop looking to man for leadership we will CONTINUE to be deceived and led astray from following Christ Jesus. The GOVERNMENT of the Body of Christ is already in place, It is Jesus Christ our Lord. If we are NOT close enough to Him to hear His commands directly, then we have NO BUSINESS writing anything for anyone else to read and especially no business in being a servant to the Church. By the way, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are NOT leadership, they are SERVANTS! Jesus Christ is our leader. a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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For rich-western mass The governmental part of the body is the 5 fold offices and the Elders of a church. And with RJ in sin, you want us to, "just get along." Insane. Light and dark cannot co exist together. 2 Corinthians 11: 13-15 says, "13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve." As for RJ, he was inducted a couple of years or so ago into the Knights of Malta (KoM), where was his discernment then? Because of that I stopped believing he, RJ, was a man of God. The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) pass of the KoM as a benign protective arm of the "christian" faith. Heck, they, the RCC, are even re-writing Christian history. The crusades was nothing more than "christians" protecting themselves from the "barbarian hoard." You mentioned that we should , "...bring more of the Father's love, power, and sound thinking to our neighborhoods." What about obedience? Jesus said if we love Him why are we not obeying Him? He declared divorce and remarriage a sin. Yet Christians continue to disobey Jesus. You can't overlook TB's sin or the fact RJ is truly not discipling TB. RJ does not even rebuke TB for divorcing his wife and remarrying while under RJ's restoration process. TB doesn't give a fig for the restoration process. Just the money and prestige. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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rich-western mass
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... Well one would think we all could devour ourselves with all this fear based gossip (Joyner and others are not inducted into the Masonic ,please do some research ). The 5 fold gifts (some say ministries ) is an interesting study (please do just that).My point is where is the governmental part of the body ? We need leadership (LEE and Joyner) to get along please and lets bring more of the Father's love ,power, and sound thinking to our neighborhoods. Blessings - we are awesome because of Him |
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contend4thef8th
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To Blue Regarding this web site:http://www.sherryshriner.com/rick-joyner.htm. Did you see her home web page? "Alien Nation: They're Here! Exposing the coming UFO invasion and the Last Days armies of the Antichrist." Don't mean to be rude but she's really way, way out there. And people thought Rick and Todd are weird. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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gwilliams
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NO RESTORATION WITHOUT REPENTANCE How can Mr. Bentley be restored when he has not repented of His sin, but rather ran to it. In 9 short months, he has gone through the entire process of divorce and remarried. Where is the repentance, which means to turn from the wrong direction and moving in the right direction. What about repentance over the infidelity. Of course, now, it's probably suppose to be alright since he and his "affair" are legally married. What about what the Bible says regarding marriage, divorce and remarriage? Did Mr. Bentley have scriptural grounds permitting him to remarry? Did his wife commit adultery? If not, he has no scriptural basis to remarry. He's not an ignorant man and he knows the Word. But, it appears, once again the Word of God has been disrespected and disregarded. There is NO restoration WITHOUT repentance. As far as the celebrity ministry, why isn't anyone focusing on the irresponsibility of GOD TV to promote the Lakeland Revival as they did. They even put people down "on the air" who dared to question some of Bentley's tactics. What everyone needs to realize is this: GOD TV made the Lakeland Revival - they created it! Why? They raised millions - and I mean millions of dollars for their network. Now, they've moved on with all the loot and no one is holding them accountable. Why isn't the Prophetic Network questioning GOD TV's involvement. Oh, maybe because they benefit financially from TV time on GOD TV....... Just a thought. |
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Blue
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Matt Sorger, for real? I wonder if anyone would like to comment on this website. Matt Sorger, Charisma's newest prophecy boy, is shown here "ministering" if that's what you call it, to only those mostly all women in the audience who are manifesting. At the end, the girls are swinging their heads so hard and their hair so hard, and Matt is getting off on it. Maybe a sexual thing to him?? To me this is all scary and disgraceful. What's the purpose?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryHxDVdw4Bs&feature;=related I don't see how Jesus is glorified in this. You go senseless. For what? Why loose control of yourself for this guy to make him look like he's got power? One fruit of the Spirit is temperance in all things. Add some Eghptian music, and whoohoo...orgy. |
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Blue
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Here is the link on Knights of Malta and Rick Joyner http://www.sherryshriner.com/rick-joyner.htm |
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Robingael
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re: Babylonbasher from UK and being pushed down For you from the UK that was physically pushed to the ground: I have a close friend that lived in Kansas City for years, and attended a Todd Bentley meeting...before the tattoos. She was in the "ministry line" when TB came by, and he put he his hand on her forehead and really slammed her onto the floor. She hurt her hip in the process. She also said the feeling of the whole thing was just violent. Nothing at all Godly about the whole meeting. So you are not alone with this! Does it not amaze you that so many of these so called "leaders" promote this stuff? Then again, maybe not...$$$$$$$can make deluded self centered people do all kinds of things that eventually will expose them to be common prostitutes. When I think of history and of the number of pathological narcissist that have been heralded as leaders and heroes until thousands or millions of people lost their lives because of them, none of us should be shocked at how depraved the human soul can be, and what they will do to attain their own means. In TB's case, he never really underwent a process of true healing and forming a foundation upon the Scripture and a right relationship with God. His mentors were just as unstable as he is. Since his ties with the demonic realm were never completely severed, his problems became worse until I am afraid he appears to have mental problems. That is not uncommon when one has open doors to the demonic realm. Keep praying he gets completely delivered, and that he finds some stable, mature believers to mentor him. Right now, he does not have that. |
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All4J
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Death by Entertainment We must realize that our Christian walk is not about the flashy (fleshy), party style gatherings and spiritual experiences. Instead, it’s all about Jesus being at the center of a humble and rather un-spectacular life of loving and serving others. That’s it! Doesn’t sound very exciting does it? But that is exactly what it’s all about; loving and serving. Especially in our Hollywood influenced and saturated western world, there is such a hunger to be entertained. There seems to be an ever growing energy drawing people to lust after being entertained 24/7. I call it “Death by Entertainment”. Every year people spend billions of dollars on entertainment. Unfortunately, wanting to be entertained has, in a very subtle way, infiltrated the church. We have fancy stage performances with professional bands and costly sound systems, and professional preachers, tickling our ears with messages of how God just wants to bless us. We have been brainwashed to think that we should ride into Heaven in a fancy Mercedes when Jesus rode on a donkey. We have been brainwashed to think that the Christian life is a great, fun-fun, party with a constant feast. And then, when we go to Heaven, we’ll have the feast of feasts. We have been brainwashed to becoming selective readers, picking out the raisins from the Scriptures. Meanwhile, in other parts of this world, Christians are suffering persecution, hunger and terrible afflictions. We have been brainwashed to think that, as Christians, we are entitled, we “deserve” whatever our flesh desires. We have forgotten that our flesh is evil. We have been blinded to think that the narrow way is a street of gold and silver, an easy walk in the park. (Tell that to a Christian brother in Vietnam!) We have yielded to the spirit of compromise and adultery with the world: “Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God”(Js.4:4). G. Campbell-Morgan who wrote these very challenging words: “If the church of God in the cities of today were aloof from the maxims of the age, separated from the materialistic philosophies of the schools, bearing her witness alone to the all sufficiency of Christ and the perfection of His salvation, even though persecuted and ostracized and bruised, it would be to the church that men would look in the hour of their heart break and sorrow and national need. The reason why men do not look to the church today, is that she has destroyed her own influence by compromise.” “Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Eph. 5:14). Mario C. Alleckna "http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0539.html" "http://www.amazon.com/Awakening The Sleeping-Giant" |
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All4J
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Reply (Quote) For Mario C. Alleckna #2 And also stop doing the same on the other forum regarding greasy grace. Thanks. (end quote) Just a quick reply here: I do not think I am selling my ministry by just posting a link under my name without even mentioning anything about a ministry in my articles here. Would you be offended if I suggested a book from another author? Would you acuse me of trying to sell his/her work? There are indeed some good publications out there! One is called "Snakes in the Lobby". You should check it out. I also love Tozer's writings. I hope you will not acuse me of promotiong his books here. If you are not interested in my link, why don't you just ignore it? No one asked you to click on it or even look at it. Thanks, and no hard feelings. |
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Pastor Dave Hall
said:
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... When we became BA Christians after 50 years in the Watchtower Society (JWs) we found what we had been missing all our lives and that was the real Yeshua (Jesus Christ). We got saved in a lovely Charismatic Church in the midlands UK. Not far from where we lived was 'Revival Fires', where we went regularly and they often hosted Todd, the Arnotts, Bobby Conner, Bill Johnson and may others of the Fire and Prophetic movement. So when we moved to Cyprus to serve our Lord, we were very pleased when God Channel TV started to show Todd and the Lakeland thing. But then something happened in the Spirit when Todd started to talk about the angel EMMA and doing his Bam stuff which belittled the Holy Spirit. I then started to do some Googling and found out that Paul Cain and Rick Joyner were inducted into the KNIGHTS OF MALTA a satanic occult group who are linked to the freemasons. All people who endorsed Bentley. We then went cold and nothing Bentley could say from then on made us feel good. He even had the Pastor and his wife from Revival Fires in the UK join him on the stage in Florida. We then realised what a trap this lot are and that they are nothing more that occultic NEW AGE wolves in not so sheepish clothing. We then started to tell Christians in Cyprus about this deception and we were slated for our views and a number living in Cyprus chased all the way over to Florida to see a man who was contaminated with sin and corruption. When ever we see Rick Joyner now on God channel he makes us feel sick. A couple of nights ago he and a few of his cohorts were 'anointing' an African Guy who was on his knees and it was nothing more than an initiation ceremony. Why all this adoration for a mere man? It is getting as bad as Pope worship. It is all leading up to the ONE WORLD ORDER with its ONE WORLD RELIGION and total control by the illuminati and masonic groups. Joyner and others like him are either innocent pawns in all of this or they are deliberately being deceptive. Jesus Christ said that we are not to take a vow of anything and yet these people are taking vows for initiation into Secretive Orders. Whatever you do, be very careful of this end time deception as even the elect can be taken captive by the enemy. Blesings in Yeshua's Holy Name Pastor Dave Hall |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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For Mario C. Alleckna #2 And also stop doing the same on the other forum regarding greasy grace. Thanks. |
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contend4thef8th
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For Mario C. Alleckna Will you stop using this forum to sell your ministry. Goodness, you're like TB and RJ, selling to the masses. leave your email fine, not your ministry stuff. |
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luisa48
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Restoration The restoration process includes restoration of marriage mr bentley and mor joyner. Mr joyner, there is righteous judgment and unrighteous judgment. I have lost all respect for mr joyner and certainly mr bentley. We need to pray for his wife and children. |
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contend4thef8th
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"If people were saved it was through their faith and genuine repentence" Because of the mess created by TB and RJ and the other false prophets, those very people may now, sadly, be questioning if their faith was real. Dear ones, it is. Even if a false prophet or apostle preached the gospel, along with their garbage. God's Word, never returns to Him void. As apostle Paul stated, when someone preaches the gospel with wrong motive, the Word is still getting out. The preaching does not qualify the speaker, nor their "pie-in-the-sky visions. It is ones obedience to the written Word that separates from the carnel, the false and lying messengers. Be assured, your salvation is real. Now, as Paul says, put your money where your mouth is in Philippians 2:12-13, "12 Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him." This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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All4J
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Is the era of Christian “stage shows” coming to an end? I personally attended a few of these “high-profile” conferences in the past. At one of these gatherings in Todd Bentley’s hometown, aside from Rick Joiner and Todd himself, the Chavda’s were invited to speak. Bonnie Chavda was asked to take the offering. She spent literally 45min.! pushing the money thing with guilt-trip approaches and explaining how, if we don’t give generously, these African Kids in a movie clip showing Todd on stage in Uganda, would not hear the gospel. On top of that, she then asked the huge audience to fill Todd’s pastor’s wallet to bless him for the work he’d done in Todd’s life. The wallet went throughout the whole place. There were two middle-aged ladies sitting a couple of rows ahead of me who, after about 30 min. of Bonnie’s push for money, jumped up and loudly voiced their disgust while leaving. I strongly feel that Rick Joiner and his “apostolic” club members, have not understood the severity of what it means to defile such a position in God’s church. “The nice and shiny vehicle that carried God’s Holy Spirit had an accident. Let’s quickly take out the dents and repaint it, so we can keep on driving on the high road of success.” I think not! Have we no concept of God’s Holiness, and the high standard by which one must abide when employed to lead His people? Obviously not! Where was the basic discernment when sharing the stage with a man who claimed to be a representative of Jesus while living in sin? Mr. Joiner, if he would have any understanding of the extent of the damage done to the image of the Christian church, would be quick to apologize for such a lack of discernment. Instead, he is degrading Mr. Grady as someone who is un-qualified to point out errors in the charismatic movement. However, the Christians who sponsor and finance these spiritual high-rollers are to blame as well; for their blindness and thirst in attending and supporting these spiritual gifting shows. Just as the Israelites, when leaving Egypt, focused on Moses instead of focusing on God; people today still focus too much on people, i.e. seemingly gifted (anointed) leaders. When the Israelites’ god (Moses) didn’t come down from the mountain for some time, they built themselves a new god, a golden calf. I believe the towers and pedestals we built for our leaders are crumbling and coming down! Mario C. Alleckna "http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0539.html" "http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Sleeping-Giant" |
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Robingael
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Because of Faith If people were saved it was through their faith and genuine repentence....NOT because of sheeka shoomba BAM. Let us hear from "all of these people" that were so set free and are out in ministry. Please let us hear from them directly. If they were affected by some "impartation" they need to seek deliverence. Just because Arnott and Strader proclaim something folks, it does not make it true. They lack any shred of true discernment, and I would run as fast as I could from their cess pool of soul power, lying spirits, psychic control, and deception. Their new-age sewage needs to be exposed. |
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tomwinfield77
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Fear of the Lord, or the lack of it, and present troubles Mario, I agree with your blog post about fear of the Lord... I have strong feelings about it... So many ministers fall sexually and money-wise because they have the wrong mindset about the Lord...You know--How could such a Feel Good God bring them down? I blame the excessive attention that P-Cs and Prophetics give to getting blessed for this... If you go too far into that, you can drown... And if you don't, you will end up with very wrong ideas about the Lord... That is also why, as I have observed, many Full Gospel Christians become frustrated when their prayers are not answered. They eventually wonder if God likes them. I mean, He is such a Feel Good God who loves to play with His children, why didn't He answer? the holy fear of the Lord is the beginning of true wisdom about Him. If you develop this fear, you will begin to see a different God emerge, different from the One you have known. He really does mean it when through Peter He warns that He is a consuming fire. He really does mean it when through Paul He warns that you will reap what you sow. He really does mean it when through Jesus He calls on us to discover His reality and sell out to Him, and to His ways. The total lack of fear of the Lord that I have seen in Pentecostal-Charismatic and Prophetic services is astrounding. It is not there.... You never, ever hear a prophecy calling on people to turn from sin. Has sin ceased to exist? Has God's demands about sin gone away? In my church every prophecy is screened first by a minister, and if it is not personally encouraging then it cannot be offered to the congretation. Their law about prophecy demands that it must be "edifying", but a call to repent and fall on your knees is not edifying. It might run people off. This is how far the lack of the fear of the Lord has gone. That lack is in the very fabric of our services. |
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tomwinfield77
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Hey, there is no fear of the Lord... You say we forget the fear of the Lord when dealing with fallen leaders. Hey, we forget the fear of the Lord anyway, all the time. I see no evidence of fear of the Lord anywhere. In all the Pentecostal-Charismatic or Prophetic services I've been to the last 35 years, He is sweet Jesus who loves you and wants to help you and heal you, who will come running over the rooftops to you if He hears you praying. And when I was in Texas, the Charismatics taught me that if I give Jesus a dime He will give me a dollar because "You can't outgive God." The real Lord Jesus, especially the One of the book of Revelation, has been lost to us. So has the God whom Peter spoke of, saying--Our God is a consuming fire, so turn from your sins; and the God whom Paul spoke of, saying--Do not be deceived, you will surely reap what you sow. No our Lord today is Sweet, All-Forgiving Jesus Who Loves You and wants to shower gifts on you. And if you go to Prophetic services, where the wacky manifstations take place--shaking, trances, people falling, people running under the Power, they tell you--"If you're new to this, don't be afraid. It's just the Father playing with His children." Then we go to services where they shout that God is among us because they see gold glittter and the like. The God of the Bible, the one who created Hellfire and Damnation, never raises His head in our Feel Good Services. A word of knowledge or prophecy that blesses your socks off is most welcome in every service, but should a word of serious correction come, we say "the Devil got into it." I am beginning to think that the fear of God, which the Bible seriously advises--saying the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom--disappeared with the apostles of Jesus' day. |
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All4J
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Money and Power Dear beloved of Jesus: One subject that becomes amplified when dealing with fallen leaders, is the important and under-emphasized issue of the fear of the Lord. Our love for Jesus can only be true if it co-exists with a deep sense of respect for our Saviour and His values: “Only fear the Lord, and serve Him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things He hath done for you”(1Sam.12:24). “For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear Him”(Ps.103:11). “He will fulfil the desire of them that fear Him”(Ps.145:19). “The Lord taketh pleasure in them that fear Him”(Ps.147:11). “Happy is the man that feareth always”(Prov.28:14). The Lord isn’t just a compassionate, forgiving and loving father-friend. As the God of the whole universe, He is also a great King and Ruler, who is almighty in His power! Most of us like to embrace only the attributes of love and compassion we see in God, not realizing that it is His other characteristic that will free us from the devil: “The lion hath roared, who will not fear? The Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy”(Amos 3:8)? To fear the Lord, which is nothing other than the result of a mature understanding of His sovereignty, is something that seems to have been swallowed up in our modern day church by a deceptive concept of God's grace. Misinterpreting His love and mercy, many believers (including those in ministry) have concluded that some of the Lord’s principles and commands are mere suggestions and therefore optional, (surveys, showing that the divorce rate among Christian couples is higher than with non believers, confirms this). The over-emphasis that is placed on God’s grace has caused a terrible imbalance in today’s teachings. Vital issues such as repentance and the fear of the Lord are not easily addressed in an environment created for comfort. “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”(Matt.10:34). Like it or not, the almighty, righteous and sovereign God of the whole universe does not fit into a box with “grace only” written on it! We need to realize that just because Jesus brought salvation to us doesn’t mean that God's Holy standards and values have changed. He still hates sin, and a lukewarm Christian walk makes Him feel as sick today, as it did during the time of the Laodicean Church. Culminating in a widespread laissez faire attitude regarding our Christian conduct, our lack of such a Holy fear has caused us to drop our guard, subjecting ourselves to all kinds of evil attacks such as self-exaltation and a focus on money. Reading a recent post by Rick Joiner's ministry, ( “... donations to help with the restoration of Todd Bentley can be made to...”), one can only conclude that money is viewed as important as ever in these Christian circles (clubs?). Perhaps one, if not the biggest, problem our "professional" preachers, teachers and so-called apostles have, is that they ignored the Scripture where the disciples were asked not to take anything with them, solely relying on the Lord's provisions. Far be it from our well-paid church leaders to make tents on the side in order to pay their own way. Today we are so much more sophisticated than the Apostle Paul. Surely, God wouldn't want us to waste time working an ordinary job when we could be blessing the church with our tremendous gifting and inspiring sermons. After all, God really needs us to do His work, right? Ah, the sweet allure of FAME and MONEY. Simon the sorcerer sure knew how God's precious gifts could benefit him financially. Mr. Bentley should perhaps consider a quiet, non-flashy, nine-to-five job as a way of finding restoration. The Bible never said that, simply just being a basic and humble example of a Christian man and earning a living in a regular job, would be a problem. Mario C. Alleckna http://www.trafford.com/robots/03-0539.html http://www.amazon.com/Awakening-Sleeping-Giant |
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Trollman
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My take on Todd Bentley's Restoration. Me thinks the sole reason for Rick Joyner wanting to get Todd "restored" as quickly as possible boils down to one thing.. and one thing only. MONEY. From all I've seen, heard, and read the "Brother" can preach "it" convincingly enough to fill the collection plates to overflowing.. those around him don't want to lose out on the golden meal ticket. I was a practicing satanist when God called me to salvation, and I began Bible College two years later, unfortunately.. I was "blessed/cursed" with the gift to "gab and could captivate people when giving my testimony. Story teller is what me mother branded me. "Boy could sell an eskimo an air conditioner for his igloo." She used to say..and I never mistook it for a compliment. Shortly after I started at this college those powers that be approached me about going to New York City to do a street outreach ministry for a church that had invited them to bring their best students. I was ready to go.. but they made it clear that I needed to get a shave & haircut, and invest in a decent suit. And the Lord pressed me to question those in authority. They didn't like it and got indignant, but the Lord did not allow me to back off because I believed my long hair.. bearded.. jeans and t-shirt dressed self would be far more effective in street ministry than what they wanted me to be dressed like. Long story short.. the hosting church wanted them to give their best speakers to get their feet wet "preaching" to their church and others in the area. I'm not bragging, but I was slated to speak four out of seven of the days we were scheduled to be there. I can preach fire & brimstone with the best of the best.. and can definately shake loose the dollars... but God made it clear to me that what I received freely... I was to give freely. That bible college was only the first of a long line of religious leaders that wanted to use me to advance the cash flow of their ministries. Thanks be to God.. none have succeeded. There was a spirit in Lakeland alright, but it was the spirit of mammon.. and those that surrounded Todd Bentley don't want that meal ticket to dry up. If they weren't concerned about losing the money.. they would distance themselves from such a shameless sinner instead of trying to "restore" him to his ministry. |
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Globalgospel
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"all things are possible" Lets be frank about all this Charismatic mania? dialogue? Jesus spoke these words to His disciples who had said back to Him: "who then can be saved?". Yes, it had to do with money. But "love of" money ("having legal tender at all times for freedom to spend") has been the besetting sin for long time. Divorces mostly have this besetting sin in the activity and background leading up to divorces and separations of marriage covenants. In the Early Rain pentecost, they dealt with this by having all things "in common". In the Latter Rain pentecost this has happened, but only in communes, et al, and not in formal churches of denominational ties and doctrines held on to highly. Women (in the Montanist movement which followed Early Pentecost) was mainly kept going for hundreds of years in their expressed insecurities about money toward their husbands. Their husbands responded in various ways. However, the world history on Charismatic movement which follows true Pentecost has been known for the truth in the teachings of Jesus: "with God ALL things are possible". Look up. Keep watching and waiting. Just as alchohol temptations ALWAYS follows drug careless activities even when become 'born again', so does "love" of having "legal tender" pressures in mareriages. The angels will do all the separating into 'slots' for resurrections heavenly. So relax just a little!!! |
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genebacon
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Impotent Apostles and Non-discerning Prophets Hi Lee, Thanks for taking a stand against the Bentley/Joyner restoration team. My issue is that all the Apostles and Prophets who anointed Bentley had zero discernment about his character. When I first saw the Lakeland Disaster I knew it was not of God. So did a lot of other believers. So why couldn't these high powered Prophets and Apostles discern the same? I believe that God is tearing down the Apostolic/Prophetic movement as it looks now and will rebuild it with Godly men. We desperately need Apostles and Prophets in the Church today but all we have are impotent and careless ones. I am ashamed of these so-called ministers who care more about being a part of the next big move than they care about righteousness. Those who anointed Todd Bentley should be ashamed that they got caught with their pants down. They should take some time off from ministry and get their own ministries in order. |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... I read the responses of some who continue to say that we will always sin! I am sorry but the BIBLE does NOT teach this. Jesus told those He healed specifically not to sin any more. Joh 5:14 Afterward, when Jesus found him in the temple, He said to him, See, you are well! Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you. Joh 8:11 She answered, No one, Lord! And Jesus said, I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more. That was Jesus speaking. Now listen to Paul. Rom 6:1 WHAT SHALL we say [to all this]? Are we to remain in sin in order that God's grace (favor and mercy) may multiply and overflow? Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? Rom 6:13 Do not continue offering or yielding your bodily members [and faculties] to sin as instruments (tools) of wickedness. But offer and yield yourselves to God as though you have been raised from the dead to [perpetual] life, and your bodily members [and faculties] to God, presenting them as implements of righteousness. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not [any longer] exert dominion over you, since now you are not under Law [as slaves], but under grace [as subjects of God's favor and mercy]. 1Co 15:33 Do not be so deceived and misled! Evil companionships (communion, associations) corrupt and deprave good manners and morals and character. 1Co 15:34 Awake [from your drunken stupor and return] to sober sense and your right minds, and sin no more. For some of you have not the knowledge of God [you are utterly and willfully and disgracefully ignorant, and continue to be so, lacking the sense of God's presence and all true knowledge of Him]. I say this to your shame. How about John the Beloved? 1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 1Jn 3:7 Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous. 1Jn 3:8 [But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done]. 1Jn 3:9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God. 1Jn 5:18 We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. NOW, either the Bible is FALSE or whoever says we will continue to sin is false! Which do you think is true? a bondslave in Christ Jesus, DIrk |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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For Sarahmaree sarahmaree said, "! I also fell into sin and with a 'great leader' who happened to be 'burnt out' and in need of healing, but no other Pastor was willing to 'stand with him' to assist him with this!!!! He felt ashamed! I was ashamed by what I did and am now in the 'spiritual wilderness' for a time, but I take heart that GOD FORGAVE ME!!!" As long as you don't do it again, you'll be forgiven. Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. What right do you think you have special unction to help a burned out pastor. His wife and friends should be there for him. Since you interfered, guess his wife lost out. He needs to step down. Women must never ever try to help someone of the opposite sex if they are not their best friends for years. Even then it is dangerous. Every woman I saw helping "some guy" ultimately fell into a sexual relationship with them. No exceptions. Some even got pregnant. So, next time keep your distance and be chaste. |
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sarahmaree
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God help me! My goodness, we get a taste of what Jesus experienced in his short life on earth when He was HIT constantly with the "LAW" by the Pharisees of His day!!!!! The Pharisees are alive and well in our modern world!! Jesus certainly did not condone any sin, ie; Mary Magdalane etc..."we ALL SIN and fall short of the glory"! HEY, EVEN GREAT LEADERS!!!!! Many greats of the past had incredible weaknesses and God used them mightily! David would have to be the standout, by all accounts he broke EVERY commandment and was still considered 'a man after God's own heart'. Its all about the HEART and ONly GOD KNOWS A PERSON"S HEART! YOU SELF RIGHTEOUS RELIGOUS FOLK COMPLAINING OUT THERE DONT! Any wonder we christians are a laughing stock to the rest of the world!!! We lack unity and cannot 'cover one another in love', nor 'restore another'! Shame on you all!!!!! The muslims have more unity than us under their pagan god!!!!! I certainly would not like to be put on trial with all of your judgmental attitudes! I also fell into sin and with a 'great leader' who happened to be 'burnt out' and in need of healing, but no other Pastor was willing to 'stand with him' to assist him with this!!!! He felt ashamed! I was ashamed by what I did and am now in the 'spiritual wilderness' for a time, but I take heart that GOD FORGAVE ME!!!! He released me and forgets, but YOU LOT STILL WANT TO HOLD THE PRISONERS CAPTIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The opposite to the biblical mandate! STOP JUDGING, or you like me might find yourself caught in the very same trepass one day and also looking for the same grace that I and Todd and many others so desperately need to move on in our walk. |
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darius
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Rick Joyners response to Mr. Grady I just have one question, Mr.Joyner What did you mean when you said, What credentials does Mr. Grady have to judge the situation? Could you pls explain that statement? I think that is the main problems in the Body. If you are not part of some sort of elite group of prophets, apostles ect, ordained by (?) then you can judge with there approval. The Bible is the plumb line and the only one, I do not need the approval of anyone to discern good from evil. Read Heb 5:12-14, I think it speaks volumes to this entire situation. Mr Grady is on target, keep on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Betty In Phoenix |
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Globalgospel
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Heresies still in the Church? When our N.T. was written, heresies were also then in the Church of Jesus Christ who back then were ALL pentecostals. Our Bible was completed having been written by pentecostal Jews to pentecostal Jews and to the Greek speaking second, the pagan world comes in clearly reading our Bible as interlopers only. THE PENTECOSTAL JEW OF THAT DAY IS INSTRUCTED THAT HERESIES ARE ALLOWED IN THE CHURCHES FOR A DISTINCT PURPOSE. It is that the "genuine" can be brought forth and shine amongst the 'heretics' around them. Lets just wait to see if we can spot the genuine coming forth still today. It has worked in the past, and will work still today (since God authorized it all). God needs NOT all our complainings here! |
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contend4thef8th
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Why no oversight of Todd all these years? I am wondering why Todd was not corrected earlier and placed on sabbatical after his first adulterous affair and also his alcoholism? Did not the ministry, of whom, supported him had no guts to discipline and correct Todd because he is a "prophet" of God? Is Todd's ilk excluding from discipline and correct because of their status? Were staff and directors sacred to approach him because of the abused scripture, "Touch not mine anointed?" Hmmm, "Touch not mine annointed" let's examine that, eh. Who is God's Anointed? ALWAYS and ONLY the leaders? "Touch not mine anointed." 1 Chronicles 16:21-22 (KJV) --------------------------- 21He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes, 22Saying, Touch not mine anointed(i.e. the people), and do my prophets no harm. 1 Chronicles 16:21-22 (NLT) --------------------------- 21 Yet he did not let anyone oppress them. He warned kings on their behalf: 22 “Do not touch my chosen people, and do not hurt my prophets.” Psalm 105:14-15 (KJV) --------------------- 14He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes; 15Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm. Psalm 105:14-15 (NLT) --------------------- 14 Yet he did not let anyone oppress them. He warned kings on their behalf: 15 “Do not touch my chosen people, and do not hurt my prophets.” --------------------- It is so sad that Christian leaders use this verse to "control" and "dominate" Christian people into submission. If any show dissatisfaction or note error about their leadership skills, teaching or behaviour, this quote, "Touch not mine anointed" is used. Fact, the two times this statement is used ALWAYS refer to God's people, the common everyday ordinary person. NOT exclusively to leaders, and yet every single Christian leader uses this on their congregation. Shame on them. This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For Dirk again :0 You said, "What does THAT say about Charisma?" Something NOT very nice. They need to think, are they doing this for Jesus or their pocketbook. I remember the early years, it was for Jesus. Strang has gotten off the path and is lost. It's all about the almighty $ and not God almighty. ---------------------- This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it |
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contend4thef8th
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For seekerofjustice You said, "So what if that couple had those experiences and barely knew each other and got married? And the marriage is a basic disaster, other than the "God brought us together!" And that is there only hope and fall back. " Prophets today have been proven wrong. So be very, very careful listening to them. Any revealed prophecy MUST agree with what you already knew. If God had said awhile ago or years ago, "I am bringing someone into your life and you both get married." You patiently wait until it happens. When it does both of you will have a confirmation in you rown spirit . If BOTH of you are NOT AT PEACE about it. DO NOT GET MARRIED AT ALL! You NEVER marry against your will, God will not do that to you. You proceed at your own peril if you continue to listen to those "so-called" prophets. |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... contend4thef8th IT is unfortunate but probably true that the ONLY WAY Charisma will sit up and take notice is if people DO hit them in the pocketbook by withdrawing their money. What does THAT say about Charisma? Sounds more and more like Balaam. a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
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For Dirk.... You said, "There is no calling them to account for their falsness," Yes there is, their pocket book. If anyone is a subscriber to any Strang magazines, to unsubscribe to them and if possible get the balance remaining refunded. That, should let them know they need to smarten up. I hope. |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... (Continued) Third, the modern American Church also teaches that we need each other to complete ourselves, that our mate is our completion and we are not really complete until we are married to this person. NOT! We need to be complete IN CHRIST JESUS!!! PERIOD Then, once we are complete in Him, IF HE wants us to have a spouse, HE WILL provide one; we should not be looking for one! All a spouse wiill do if we are not complete in Christ is cause more troubles in our lives, and could easily end in divorce. The Church today has just as many divorces as the WORLD; about one half of all marriages end in divorce, INCLUDING those in the Church. We should NOT be so ready to rush into this very sacred institution. It takes a lot of work, prayer, sacrifice, and so many other things. My wife and I have been married for almot 34 yrs and we made MOST of the mistakes we could make and sinned greatly against the Lord and each other. It is ONLY by the greace of God and our submission to HIM that we are still together, are each other's best friends, and are able to minister to others. NO MARRIAGE should be rushed into. In fact, it should take a couple of years for most people to go from courtin to marriage and ONLY if their relationship is based on serving the Lord. NO MARRIAGE should be based on romance! Marriage should come naturally from our working together with the Lord and each other. If it does NOT, then it is NOT from Him in the first place. a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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Bondslavenchrist
said:
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... seekerofjustice said>> "So if all of these prophets and prophecies are wrong, if it is all false visions, dreams and teachings then what if a young Christian couple lives in the circle and is influenced to get married? Not necessarily pressured, but they have possible prophetic signs they are to be married, etc. And even financial breakthrough. And I am not saying that a prophet told them to get married, but they had signs and things that made them wonder (which is why they call them wonders) if they should get married. So what if that couple had those experiences and barely knew each other and got married? And the marriage is a basic disaster, other than the "God brought us together!" And that is there only hope and fall back. And I am not even taking about Todd (though I wonder if this happened to him too.) But please do not answer it about Todd. I am asking for people's answer's to these honest questions. What about this couple, because I know quite a few people in this situation. Their marriages are disasters, they have nothing in common, but "God told them to get married." " There will be some who will not like this, BUT the Modern US Church PUSHES young people to get married! For the most part, if you are young and single, the fellowships and Bible studies are all about you getting married and how to deal with or find a mate! There is litte if ANY concern for those who are called not to be married or those who should wait and serve the Lord alone for some time. Second, if we are NOT hearing the Lord speak to us DIRECTLY, then we are actually living by feelings! We should be taught by REVELATION from the Holly Spirit. If you have had Him reveal things to you DIRECTLY then you know what I am speaking about. If you do not, then those people must seek the Lord, submit themselves to Him, get out of His way until He is truly leading you. We MUST walk in Obedience. Look at John 14>>>>> "Joh 14:20 At that time [when that day comes] you will know [for yourselves] that I am in My Father, and you [are] in Me, and I [am] in you. Joh 14:21 The person who has My commands and keeps them is the one who [really] loves Me; and whoever [really] loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I [too] will love him and will show (reveal, manifest) Myself to him. [I will let Myself be clearly seen by him and make Myself real to him.] Joh 14:23 Jesus answered, If a person [really] loves Me, he will keep My word [obey My teaching]; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (abode, special dwelling place) with him. Joh 14:24 Anyone who does not [really] love Me does not observe and obey My teaching. And the teaching which you hear and heed is not Mine, but [comes] from the Father Who sent Me. Joh 14:25 I have told you these things while I am still with you. Joh 14:26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you." You see, JESUS PROMISED to lead us by the Holy Spirit; He PROMISED to reveal and make Himself REAL to us IF WE WILL OBEY HIM. Not only that but He will LIVE inside of us. We will NOT have to go running to some church service to get full of or hear the Lord. HE WILL BE LIVING INSIDE OF US ALL THE TIME!!! This is an anointing that NEVER goes away! His very life will make us HOLY, pure, righteous, etc. If we have those RIVERS of LIVING WATER, the VERY SOURCE OF THEM, inside of us, WHY would we EVER need to go anywhere to get more? (continued) |
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seekerofjustice
said:
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Question So if all of these prophets and prophecies are wrong, if it is all false visions, dreams and teachings then what if a young Christian couple lives in the circle and is influenced to get married? Not necessarily pressured, but they have possible prophetic signs they are to be married, etc. And even financial breakthrough. And I am not saying that a prophet told them to get married, but they had signs and things that made them wonder (which is why they call them wonders) if they should get married. So what if that couple had those experiences and barely knew each other and got married? And the marriage is a basic disaster, other than the "God brought us together!" And that is there only hope and fall back. And I am not even taking about Todd (though I wonder if this happened to him too.) But please do not answer it about Todd. I am asking for people's answer's to these honest questions. What about this couple, because I know quite a few people in this situation. Their marriages are disasters, they have nothing in common, but "God told them to get married." I'm all ears. |
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Bondslavenchrist
said:
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... Dear contend4thef8th and all others following this thread, We will NOT get the ABSOLUTE TRUTH but only Charisma's (and man's) ideas. The Bible tells us what God thinks about divorce, sin, and how leaders are to act. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum and NOT ONCE has Charisma admitted it's failure, it's sin, or called to account all of those false prophets it endorses. How do we know they are false prophets? Because they take money (even CHARGE money) for their prophecies, they endorsed Todd Bentley saying he was doing good work when he was in adultery and other sins, and also when Todd was preaching false teachings. These self-proclaimed prophets endorsed Todd Bentley and NEVER has Charisma said ANYTHING but good about them. There is no calling them to account for their falsness, there is no reprimand, NOTHING; not ONE BIT oF correction! So why should we listen to Charisma? They are only promoting man's ideas and NOT GOD's TRUTH! Very soon, they will pay for their hypocrisy! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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Attention Administrator Did the email posted here allegedly sent by Rick Joyner actually was sent by him? Or was it a fake? Many of us would like to know THE TRUTH. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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To Gymmum1 - Law Before Grace? You got it wrong deary. Again I am stupefied at how many here do not know their scripture, let alone unable to quote it properly. Have you read Romans 6:1-2, "1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?" You often err quoting scripture. Favoring one set of verses over proper teaching of God's word. And you are in an adulterous relationship. So sad. |
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brodon
said:
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The other benifit of this aritcle might be. . . . . . . . . that Charisma magazine finally opens its eyes to what it's readers think about these false leaders. It is Charisma that gives voice and credibility to these charlatans. Steven Strang is a wonderful Christian man, but he needs to quit sucking up (pardon the expression) he these false prophets. See his latest article on "Bishop" Jakes for example. If all of this is getting into the overly critical area, its just that we've been fed up for decades to what these corrupt leaders have gotten away with. And consider how many gullible and un-discerning Christian's have been deceived. |
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Jesus-is-Lord
said:
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The Kingdom Way We are citizens of another Kingdom and in the Kingdom we belong to our Lord has given us His decrees inside of the Bible or the Scriptures. I am not trying to condemn any with what I say but it is what is written and condemnation comes when one loves sin and refuses to come to the light. I hope for Todd's restoration and Salvation in Jesus but according to what is written in our Kingdom laws he can never teach or be in eldership according to 1Tim.3:2 or Tit.1:6 or according to Lk 16:18, Gal.519-21, Eph.5:5-6, 1Cor.6:9-10 he may not even enter into the Kingdom instead of fighting to restore him into ministry he needs people who will fight for his salvation and delivering his soul from hell then the lake of fire and establishing him to walk worthy of God and to stand in the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints instead of some new gospel which is no Gospel at all but rather a perversion. I hope that not only him but all will receive a love for the truth that they do not get swept away by the strong delusions that are upon the earth. |
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NobodySpecial
said:
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... Excuse my last post, I see that there are two threads on this topic. The one I was referring to was in Fire in My Bones and its all still there. |
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GymMum1
said:
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... So I guess that means that my husband CAN NOT go into ministry because he was married once before.... LAW before GRACE.... Isn't that what JESUS came to change? Once your in MINISTRY you all of a sudden can NEVER make mistakes? HHHMMMM ~ perhaps that is why we have a decrease in "Church Attendance" My brother once told me that there is more "self~rigtheousness" in the church than there is in the world, I asked him "Why?" ~ He said, "Because so many people "THINK" once they have been saved that they are qualified to JUDGE others" It is so sad to me that instead of lifting him in prayer we tear him down on every site that will let us slander him. He is just as much God's child as everyone else on this planet! |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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To gymmum1: You said, "Even if you do have all the facts, who died and made us judge and jury?" God did. Do you EVER read the Bible? Paul said we are to judge sin in the church. The church is the body of Christ. Read the Epistels again before commenting. |
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NobodySpecial
said:
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Rick Joyner's Reponse Why was the link to Joyner's comment to Grady and all comments regarding it removed? Was the Joyner statement fabricated? Are we being censored? What's going on? |
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GymMum1
said:
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... It is amazing to me how we as christians are so quick to judge a situation. How many of us have "all the facts"? I know I don't. Even if you do have all the facts, who died and made us judge and jury? I am sorry for those who are hurt about the situation between Todd, Shonnah, their kids and his new wife Jessa. The situation is what it is.... is that going to change? No. It's WHY Jesus came.... He knew we would fail. Things happen, and I am not in a qualified position to JUDGE or PERSECUTE a fellow brother or sister of the LORD. We all have our own walk with GOD! You walk your walk and I will walk mine, when I need your help I will call on you, and when you need mine, you can call on me! I will see you will compassion like Christ has for me, and I will Love you with a love that only comes from Christ.... Would you do the same for me? |
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David C
said:
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FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH It is troubling to see: 1) that so many can claim that the LORD God Almighty has personally revealed something (seemingly new) to them that must be distributed rather than affect their own spiritual walk; and 2) the very fact that it is supposed to be from Him provides instant credibilty as fact. It may be much harder work to study God's Word and mine its depths rather than to listen to someone talk about how they view things but we can KNOW that it is objectively true. If we study His revealed will, allow Him to be Lord as well as Savior, we will know. REgarding being judgmental, one concept of judging involved condemning for punishment and that is not my responsibility or alowed role. Nevertheless, we ARE to judge in the sense of assaying truth, all the while being humble and being aware of our own sin. In my heart, I am sometimes a much bigger sin and so I will gurad my heart when I speak. Using the definition of love like Christ used it, I love Mr. Bentley and want was is best and right for him. I do not judge him, and am keenly aware of my own imperfections. That is why I carefully examine myself, especially when I am placed in any position of spiritual leadership. It is unfortunate that the way the article is written implies it is an inevitable fact that Mr. Bentley will pick up at some point and have the authority to preach to others. Not only is it "premature", it causes harm to the Kingdom when those in leadership openly sin and then are placed back in positions of leadership. He can be forgiven if he repents and loved regardless of being in leadership or not. Many loving brothers and sisters do not seem to appreciate the fact that, given the immense harm caused by public hypocrisy among those who claim to be leaders of God's people, there is huge potential harm in placing them in a leadership position again. Can fallen leaders who have shown themselves to have been unfaithful appreciate the fact that, even if they feel "restored", their credibility has suffered immensley and as a result, isn't it better to serve the Lord in a non-leadership position? If they are truly in ministry to minister, why not serve in such as way that does not require people to give them money and submission? If it is truly about serving the Lord, why not make "tents" like Paul, and go minister when there is no possibility of financial benefit, nor ego gratification. Do so humbly, sacrificially and anonymously. Credibility comes with a life lived so as to be morally compelling. Regarding the re-marriage, the facts show that he did not have biblical grounds to divorce or re-marry. Therefore, the remarriage is contrary to God's expressed will and an ongoing sexual relationship in same would be the equivalent of adultery and fornication. I do not judge, I merely point out what God has said. I would lovingly suggest and counsel that he confess the re-marriage was wrong, confess that sin, and remain celibate while on his spiritual journey. Work on the relationship with the Lord and everything else will work out the way it should. If his first wife should decide to not only forgive but accept him back if and when he "brings forth fruit keeping with his repentance", that is her decision. Either way, she is to forgive. May God be glorified and Him only in all of this. I must |
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brodon
said:
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But on the brighter side. . . . . . . . . . this COULD be the disgrace that allows our undiscerning brethren to see who these charlatans really are. |
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amc
said:
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TB If anyone deserves restoration, it's Todds's first wife. She put up with him all these years. She had the children and stayed at home while he became popular. He repays her with an affair and now divorce. She probably does not want him back! The bible says if the unbeliever wants to leave then let him leave. Todd was and still is in unbelief. She needs our support more than Todd. Seems like more people are sympathic with his pathectic choices. How about the lady that stood by him and was dumped. It is high time that the body of Christ take courage and STOP supporting these people and feeling sorry for them. Yes, God still forgives but he does not always restore us to the positiions we held. We do reap what we sow in this life! I meet lots of unbelievers daily. The church is a joke to them and I cannot defend it with the lives of these people. |
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Bondslavenchrist
said:
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... I have been reading each of these comments and for the most part they are in agreement>>>> This Todd Bentley thing is wrong, should NOT have happened, and WHY is Charisma presenting all of this in a positive note? Charisma NEVER answers when it COULD look like they might even be considered wrong. As long as they are the authority and are considered as such, they will comment. BUT as soon as evidence is presented that shows Charisma may be in the wrong, they are SILENT! Nothing is solved. No one is corrected. The "church" is NOT made stronger nor is it becoming more Christ-like! If anything, they are becoming more world-like and Charisma is PART of the problem. The questions that are asked by many writers are NOT being answered. This is the normal Charisma way that I have noticed in the last few months that I have been reading and writing here. It has become totally disgusting and VERY unchristian. It is no wonder that the world laughs at us, does NOT take us seriously, does NOT believe anything we say nor is the Church changing the world; it causes more people to feel they are justified in their hatred or indifferent attitude toward the Church and Jesus Christ. The Church is its own worst enemy and is a laughing stock in the world. We say we are changed and different and then they see things like Haggard and Bentley and SO MANY MORE happen and they say, " Give me a break!" They know what hypocrisy looks like even if those in the church do not. How does one stop receiving emails on subjects? There is a way to subscribe to a subject, but since Charisma changed their format, there is no way that I see to stop receiving notifications of others posting a comment. There is a lot of inference that many are sick of these sinning leaders, yet NO ONE from Charisma will cease writing about them or admit they are wrong, EVEN IN THE FACE OF MANY SCRIPTURES! How much longer do you honestly think God will allow this to go on? The STORM is almost upon us and very few are ready for it. Do not think you will escape it for we will ALL face the Great Tribulation. There is no such thing as being left behind, for all of us will still be here!!!! I feel great sorrow for those who believe they will escape and also for those that believe Rick Joyner will bring Todd Bentley back to the ministry. It is a circus, full of mirrors and smoke, misdirection, and sin! Goodday! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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WJH
said:
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Thank you for the freedom Wow, this is awesome. My wife is 53 years old and just not what she used to be. I have had my eye on a lady in our church who sings beautifully and looks fantastic at 42. I didn't realize I could make the switch so easy and still stay in the ministry. I have been a pastor in the same church for 32 years and need a break from my wife and church. With the Joyner/Bentley plan, I get both. Two years off with personal ministry from a national minister and then back on the circuit. Thank you Charisma for this freeing revelation. You're invited to the wedding. P.S. My wife is happier than I am and is wondering if there are any elderly men on staff for Joyner who are single or would consider becoming single. She's a great cook. |
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submit to Word
said:
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Finally, we are talking about this sin All I can say is "Finally!" The sin of "quietly" having regular christians, or leadership christians or anointed christians divorce their spouses and take new ones while their true spouses live is being addressed. Finally. Finally, there are people who are reading the plain Word of God, and addressing this sin that deeply rips and tears at the idea of a Body of Christ that is obedient and willing to endure yes, even difficult marriages. The fact that it's Todd Bentley is that we will treat him like a People magazine "famous person" in the Body. Somehow, we think his behavior should be an example because in some instances, he stands as a leader, mostly because it seems the Holy Spirit's anointing seems so unusually strong upon him. Regardless of the level of anointing, the importance of uncomfortable obedience remains a mandate for all of us. But if we put joe or jane christian on the stand here, would we "quietly" choose to allow the public slander of divorce (it really is a type of slander....someone is blaming someone else and justifying leaving them or cutting them out of their lives) or would we be indignant and say they are called to obey? Is there a double standard? Is Todd just following what the majority of the church is doing? Who are the examples in this day and age? There are those who know divorce is wrong, but think..."ah well, we're imperfect so we can forgive and start over with another person" even thought the Scriptures DO NOT tell us this, our modern world does. They ignore the warnings about adultery. The Scriptures teach a very clear line about marriage. If too troubled to function, separation is understood to be a difficult consequence, but to be avoided. NEVER does our Lord tell us to remarry, unless our living one time original spouse dies. It is clear, and may seem harsh, but it is what our marriage vows are completely founded upon. So the real issue isn't so much about Todd's special place, but about how we as the Body view Jesus' teaching on marriage, divorce and marrying another whilst our spouse lives. The obdience or lack of it are a serious business in the Body. The lie that "we just have too many issues for too long and so we should divorce and start with another" is probably one of the most believed "personalized" arrows of deceit the enemy sends to unsuspecting believers. This is a very pervasive mindset we can rightly call a stronghold of thought. Your obedience to God, in spite of this kind of attack (the pervasive lie stated above), will get you through your trial. Resist the devil and he will flee. Jesus Christ is all about helping us, empowering us, to resist strongholds that "exalt themselves against the knowledge of God" . He wants to tear them down (with truth) because believing lies is how we get sucked in to get into a position where we are in gross disobedience and in danger of not only living a lie, but promoting it. Be on guard Body, guard your hearts. Honor your vows in sickness and health, in all conditions. Seek to obey HIs word and He will really bless you. If you have a spouse who is trying to sin in this area, PRAY for them to come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil who has captured them to do his will. |
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rpt
said:
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Pressing The Divorce Issue This is really the most productive part of the debate. Either you make a commitment to stay married or not, subject to the Gospel exceptions of adultery, etc., which is, in this case, no excuse for TB since he is the adulterer. If you believe in marriage, you simply cannot justify what he has done in dumping, abandoning, leaving, dropping, etc., his wife, even if it the relationship was tough, challenged, unhappy, stressful, painful, etc. Separation is one thing, if there is no hope of reconciliation (not addressed here), but divorce followed by a quick remarriage to the "third party" just does not meet the standards of a believer. Is this a difficult issue? If I am wrong, please explain. |
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WiseReaction
said:
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Divorce and Re-Marriage is Adultery Divorce and Re-Marriage is Adultery! What did Jesus, the Apostle Paul have to say? For many FREE downloads on Creational Covenantal Marriage http://www.WiseReaction.org Todd Bentley is yet another Adulterer, who needs to be empowered to GO SIN NO MORE  |
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rpt
said:
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On and on..... No one suggests that TB divorce his current wife. The Morningstar video with RJ and TB is perfect public relations, and almost verbatim the conversation Rick Warren had with John McCain at the Saddleback event last year, that is: "I'm sorry for the failure of my marriage". No problem. How easy, but completely non-substantive. These guys got tired of their first wives, dumped them, and found new, and, as always happens, younger second wives with no children, no baggage, no stretch marks, no stress, and no lines in their faces from being a de facto single parent while dad was away. Well, of course TB will take the dumped kids to Disneyland for a week, as if that is what they need. What a father! More important to get his visa status in order on the West Coast than deal with the day to day job of parenting. The guy can start fresh, new family, new kids, new career, new ministry, and no problem. So much for the church's defense of "traditional marriage" and the need for two parents. No need to discuss any of the facts or details, just move on, and, as RJ says, anyone who asks questions is merely "self-righteous", and thus worse than the perpetrator. Wow. |
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The Priesthood
said:
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What Did You Expect Many in the Body of Christ seems to have lost their discernment or never developed it. This is due to a church today that has given in to the name brands (IDOLS) and followed their doctrines and dogmas and abandoned our local pastors for the "Mega Mess"... Everything has to be big for it to be God and Charisma included. We should not be surprised, especially when we have sowed to this deception. We have so many opinions today in the church until we have rivaled the media of the world. What ever happened to purity and the simplicity of the gospel? We like deep revelations and this is where one ends up when they pursue deepness and not the LORD. |
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elihu
said:
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"Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" Jesus Matthew 5:48 If there was one scripture that explains everything it would certainly have to be this: “Many will follow their shameful ways and bring the way of truth into disrepute.” {2 Peter 2:24} That and of course this scripture as well... “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to public disgrace.” {Hebrews 6: 4-6} The whole world is laughing their heads off at us and worse at Christ! I don't think that in the whole history of the church have we ever saw Christ being disgraced in the eyes of the world than we have over the last few decades. Wow what ever happened to the teachings from the book of Job and you know if the seriousness of this isn't also explained by scripture also... “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said “It is mine to avenge; I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people.” {Hebrews 10: 26- 30} Moreover I often find it incredible how communion can be administered to christian folk especially from and to leaders when they are engaged in willful sins. The bible makes it all to clear that people who take the wine and bread this way will be judged. For people like Todd Bentley and O so many others then I think that AXE as Christ said is already at the root of the tree. What frightening and mind blowing things Christian folk are involved in these days but that is the sign of the times isn't it? Grace may be sufficient people but no one should ever think that God suffers fools easily. Accordingly watch out! |
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dgodfrey
said:
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Divorce and Remarriage I would really like to point out just one thing to all of those who are saying Mr. Bentley should divorce his new wife and go back to his first wife. Biblically speaking, he cannot do this. He can never remarry his first wife, as he has remarried since the divorce. I cannot remember the exact reference at the moment, but the New Testament is clear on this. |
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hopeful
said:
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following the scriptures If Todd Bentley was really repentant then his actions would match up. Yes we must get the scriptures right and in the bible I read, I see that a Paster (bishop) etc Has to be the husband of ONE wife. Not One wife at a time 1Tim 3. 1-13. I think these verses sum up the whole issue of Todd Bently.True repentance brings forth true fruit |
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prekrasno
said:
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Ignorance and self-aggrandizement The reason why so-called preachers and prophets like Bentley continue to thrive is because they prey on Christians' blind faith. Most Christians have no idea why they believe what they do, much less what the Bible actually says about their beliefs. Many are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the world's other cultures or beliefs, and mistakenly believe they have cornered the market on truth. The self-aggrandizement of these preachers knows no bounds -- and very often they themselves don't even know it. |
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akoustix
said:
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First Video on Todd's restoration released on MorningStar's site It finally looks like a lot of speculation can end. Here it straight from Todd himself along with Rick Joyner: http://www.morningstarministri...tleys.aspx |
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rpt
said:
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This is not complicated..... I don't see this as a complicated matter calling for prophetic revelation or theological interpretation or high level rationalization, or a meeting of the Apostolic Council. This is not how Christian men who are disciples of Christ behave. Even the world can see what is going on here. TB was married. He began a relationship with another woman while he was married. He left his wife, apparently abandoned his children, moved to another country, and got divorced. He "keeps the business", and then remarries, and still wants people to "support" him. Is this good behavior? Is it responsible? Is he looking to catch up with Rush Limbaugh (3 broken marriages) and Newt Gingrich (2 abandoned wives), the leaders of the "conservative-traditional values" world? |
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anthony
said:
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Biblical standards only in ministry please. There is a fad nowadays to avoid judgement,this is not Biblical,consequently this article is most refreshing!!Mr Bentley has disqualified himself from ministry.We either measure things Biblically or by the gutter level we have lowered ministry to.All this talk about revival,friends we are on track for God's judgement! |
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newwin12
said:
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Where is the spirit of truth? At the very beginning of the Todd Bentley meetings I told several people around me that there was something wrong here. I was accused of being judgemental , arrogant , critical and a few other things. I felt this young man was, though he had substantial gifts, to immature and was very heady about those gifts. I am sad that the older brothers around him did not attempt to disciple him then. Perhaps they did, but Todd may not have heard? It seems if we were watchng closer as mature christians ourselves, this would never have gotten to the place it did. I agree with Mr. Grady except for one statement and that was that Todd could be considered to be disqualified. If there are true fruits of repentance and a new track record of that fruit then I believe that as the woman caught in adultery that Jesus would say "go and sin no more" But to push Todd back into the faces of the people so quickly ,I believe is a big mistake and the one that gets damaged the most is Todd himself. Pride seems to be a huge area where Todd needs help, and if he wants to be believable again this is not the way to cause people to embrace him. Centainly not starting to ask for money again. Very poor discipleship in my opinion. I have read almost all of Ricks books and highly respect him. In this case I thnk he may be running a little to fast. |
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Joie
said:
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Hearing from the Lord about Todd before he was exposed Just as Lakeland was picking up speed and was considering moving to a bigger facility the Lord spoke to me about Todd, his sin and what was coming. I had been discussing this with my Pastor and also a well known Apostle from Rwanda Africa, via email (those are available with dates for anyone interested). He was telling me about what was happening in Todd's life and with the leaders of the "outpouring' for many reasons, but I am sharing this here today because I am watching many of the blogs and seeing that so many are questing why God didn't seem to tell anyone prophetically that this sin was going on and that this trouble was coming. I will let the blog post from last March speak for itself, but for now I want to say that both in the Word of God and prophetically God is speaking about what is going on in the Todd bentley situation. For those who have an ear... Below is a quote from the blog post and here is the link for the entire article: www.shoutsofjoyministries.com click the "Word in Due Season Blog" button and then scroll down to "Speak the Truth" "In early May He told me in a vision that Todd Bentley was in sin and that some of the sin was “deviant” (His word). I was told that the sin that would be revealed would include sexual sins, problems with the money, and testifying to miracles that have not happened. He said that it would be exposed but that was not why the event would end. It would end and be exposed because he and his fellow ministers were not allowing Christ to be the Head. I was told that He would allow the move to become well known and that I should watch to see who would (and I use His word here) “own” this. Many ministers of prominence would “own” what was happening. He didn’t say why this was important, but He wanted me to watch for it and to watch who did..." {Personally I am very curious to hear what all of these prophets are saying that God is saying about this.} |
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Bondslavenchrist
said:
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... Brothers and Sisters, We as Christians are supposed to live lives beyond repraoch. PERIOD!!! That means ALL of us, NOT just ministers. (of course, according to the Bible we are all ministers anyway) Has NO ONE read their Bibles? Can you not see all of those verses that COMMAND US NO T TO WALK IN SIN, COVER UP SIN, EXPOSE SIN, etc, etc, etc!!! Don;t you know that anyone who walks in sin have not even had an experiential ancounter with GOD? { 6No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains [e]in communion with and in obedience to Him--deliberately, knowingly, and [f]habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him].} Do we believe this verse (along with all the other verses that agree with it) or not? Either the Bible is absolutely TRUE or we are deceived, still in our sins and we might as eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die. Personally, I believe the Bible is absolutely TRUE and we had better make sure our lives are lived in such a manner that the Lord will say to us that we abide in Him! ( 6Whoever says he abides in Him ought [as [d]a personal debt] to walk and conduct himself in the same way in which He walked and conducted Himself.) Do we live like that or not? If we do not, then not only is Todd Bently headed for the Lake of Fire, but we are as well! Unless we repent, we will ALL likewise perish! Friends, REPENT means we turn away from what we used to do and NEVER DO IT ANYMORE!!!!! That is Biblical repentance. That is the ONLY kind that saves. So, let us NOT look at all of these supposed leaders but rather let us look at ourselves and find out from the LORD HIMSELF is HE says we are abiding in HIM in accordance with what the Bible actually says! Stop the hypocrisy and bring it home to ourselves. We had better make sure WE are in the faith before we start talking about ANYONE ELSE! a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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contend4thef8th
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Globalgospel's...Caught in the last days "nets"? >>>Even if closely associated with the local body, the Kingdom presented by Jesus to this planet was never intended to be a democracy, nor ever intended to be established by mere men EVER. Let the local congregation make the decisions necessary for the peace and safety of their Church and outreaches. This couple (newly married) should have every opportunity to be sent ones (apostles) from this local body of believers IN THEIR FUTURE and not yours |
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Globalgospel
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Caught in the last days "nets"? Wonder how many commentators here were also "caught" into these last days "nets" themselves. Arn't you all glad the angels do the separating and NOT all those other flopping fish freshly caught? There are lost of divorce and remarriage stories since these nets were spread out for these last days (beginning with the 30 years of Early Church Pentecost till James the Just was slain) and resumed with the Azusa Street revival era we had been living in until the Charismatic movement became the dominate movement of these last of the last days. THE BIBLE IS VERY, VERY CLEAR: men do NOT separate the good from the bad catch. Only the angels reserved for this very purpose are allowed to do the separating as to who is Hell bound and who is Heaven bound! All commentators on this site have nothing important to say UNLESS they are a part of the local body of believers associated with this couple's past and present places of fellowship. Even if closely associated with the local body, the Kingdom presented by Jesus to this planet was never intended to be a democracy, nor ever intended to be established by mere men EVER. Let the local congregation make the decisions necessary for the peace and safety of their Church and outreaches. This couple (newly married) should have every opportunity to be sent ones (apostles) from this local body of believers IN THEIR FUTURE and not yours who are clearly not associated with this local body of Christ. Charisma Mag. reports stories and we appreciate that as well, along with all the other helps to the Body of Christ in general (especially the Charismatic) who have for now completely taken over the pentecostal movement begun again in 1906 with Azusa Street. These lastest now "caught in the nets of salvation offered" in these "last of the last days" who rely upon this earth being the center of God's Universe are just trying their best to please God Whom they believe has not had His Second Coming here as yet! So all seem to be scrambling as to who deserves being on "His right hand", or on "His left hand" and are constantly trying to defend God and His laws initiated on this tiny blue marble we live on. Relax just a little and let God defend Himself. One way is to just let those assigned "angels" to do the "separating" and not wantabe priests only! |
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contend4thef8th
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Going About The Father's Business What do you think we are doing? If you read any of my comments you will see that Christians must judge sin in the church (i.e. the body of Christ). I am sorry others behaved badly towards you. It's GREAT to take that attitude walk in love. Perhaps the "rants" are just pure jealousy regarding Todd. It does happen. However if it is not than I "Pity the fool" who condems Todd but not themselves for something similar. You said, "...(Interesting to note that one of the "ministers" got his wife thru adultery months before he blogged and pointed the finger at Todd Bentley and the other "minister" knew about it and help cover it up AND continued to promote him." So, why are you covering up for them? Expose their names DON"T JUST throw accusations around. There is a good chance many others know too and in complancy cover it up. I forgot where in the NT it is, but there is a scripture that clearly shows us we must expose sin. So what's the problem. The God I serve expects me to obey His Word (i.e. verse) w/o cancelling it out with another Word (i.e. verse). Yet it done almost always by Christians. Regarding judgment, even Jesus said to judge righteous judgment, so why do we cancel that out by using His other statement on judgment? You know the one, Judge not lest you be judged. So, has Jesus contradicted Himself? That's not possible. The comments refer to the same thing, don't make rash and unwarranted judgments because if you do it's gonna be shoveled back to you the same." |
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contend4thef8th
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Kims4him says............... >>>We need to get our focus off our pointing finger and go about our Father's business. |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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... Kims4him says............... >>>We need to get our focus off our pointing finger and go about our Father's business. |
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kidon
said:
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he has to get a new job I think Todd should find another job for himself and do not think about preaching again. That must be the end of the Bently 'case'. |
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kims4him
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Love? I was not a follower of Todd Bentley, never attended a meeting - only briefly saw some blips from a meeting. So my comment is NOT one of defensiveness or justification. Just a humble biblical response. I look around and see a hurting and lost world. There is SOOOO much to do! We need to get our focus off our pointing finger and go about our Father's business. Can't you harsh commentators take the same energy and time you spend spewing evil and hateful words of judgement and self righteousness and find something to do for the Kingdom? The toughest thing about the Todd Bentley event for me has been the PERSONAL ATTACK I endured because I chose to walk in love in that situation instead of crucify him. I even had two "ministers" I knew accuse me of having a religious spirit because I disagreed with their public skewing via blogging of Todd Bentley. Apparently when I disagreed with and would not participate in their VERY public attack of him, they turned on me and called ME names AND ended ended our friendship! (Interesting to note that one of the "ministers" got his wife thru adultery months before he blogged and pointed the finger at Todd Bentley and the other "minister" knew about it and help cover it up AND continued to promote him. Still involved in a very public ministry internationally.) Those of you who have decided that Todd is not entitled to restoration don't know the God that I serve...nor do you understand the scriptures that clearly state "judge not lest you be judged"...same measure! As for me, I am back to my Father's business. |
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anthony
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... One blogger who thought Bentley should get secular work makes a good point.Maybe he would be safer there and the Church more scandal free.There are standards required for those who would aspire to ministry for the Holy One.Any talk/hints of a return to that priveleged position are very premature,nay futile lest we covert the wrath of God on this/your branch of the Body of Christ. |
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brodon
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Why this "Restoration" aritcle is so defining. Brethren: Not only does this Bentley situation lay bare the sad state of a portion of the Church (Charismatic), it shows how many of our beloved brethren do not have a full understanding of the word of God. And. . . . all in all, may be very good Christians. However, “prophets" like Joyner and the rest know better, Therein lays the sin. To those who object to criticism of the Charismatic movement, please take a look at the scandals of LEADERSHIP THESE PAST DECADES. Worse of all, it goes mostly unchecked even to this day. To those few who see this as self righteous judgment, I hopefully don't think that anyone posting feels they are without sin or compassion. But this is so blatantly out of order that it deserves the attention it is getting. When the dust settles, this MAY awaken all of us to what's become of the church of the Living God. . . .and hopefully begin to do something about it. Starting with ourselves. |
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contend4thef8th
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4Christ said....... " And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.” You are playing fast and loose with scripture just like a Pharisee. I am surprised so many Christians are doing that today. Obeys one set of laws (scripture commandment) at the expense of another law (scripture commandment). Paul warned about the possibility that Christians can disqualify themselves by a sinful action(s), "I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified" (1 Corinthian 9:27). The women, obviously did truly repent and did not sin anymore. As long as Todd and wife #2 remain together he is in perpetual sin every time they have sex. Do you think the man who was excluded from fellowship for having sex with his mother (Yeah, I know, it was his step-mom. But as far as God is concerned she's his mother). Do you think when he was "restored" that he went back to sleep with mom? Of course not! So why should Todd reap sexual benefits from another women (that God clearly knows is not his real wife)? Besides, if they fool themselves and stay married and put on a display of happiness, or truly are happy, it still does not make disobeying God ok to do. Holiness, obedience, faithfulness are these now passe? God help us if it is, and He just might not. Am I being too judgmental? I don't think so. I am exercising the commandment given to me by God to judge sin in the body of Christ. Are many Christians today think they are more tolerant and forgiving than the Corinthian church, of whom, approved by their non-action the man's ongoing sin with his mother. 1 Cor. 5:1-2 seems to fit many Christian churches today."It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? " Paul goes on to say v.9-11, "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat". Again and again we are told to judge sin in the church, not let it slide. Paul even said to the Corinthians 5:12, "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning". The same words, more or less Paul stated regarding Christians who cheat one another in 1 Corinthians 6:1-6. There we are told to judge between Christians who are suing each other rather than let it be resolved in the law courts. This is something we do today, Christian against Christian and ministry against ministry. Instead of allowing ourselves to be wronged by another believer (v.7), we seek justice outside the church (denominations). |
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resco
said:
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Mockery of Marriage Tony Evans once said, "It doesn't what the records down at city hall (or in Canada) say, The records in Heaven say that you are married. I do not know what "restoration" God has for Todd Bentley, but I am very confident, on the authority of scripture, that the first step in the restoration process is family restoration. The people who are harboring a fugative from God need to help him get out of the non-covenant relationship he is in error calling "marriage." These people need to pack Bentley's bag and point him north, back to his covenant wife and to his precious children. That is the first step in restoration. Prodigals do come home. I know because I was one, but my wife prayed me home, where I have now been for over 20 years. I thank God that I did not have people shielding me from the work that God wanted to do in my heart. Please, for the sake of his family, stop prepping Todd Bentlen for a comeback. The only "comeback" Todd Bentley needs is to come back home and repent of his sin to our MIghty God who is ready to forgive. May God have mercy on any church leader who directlyu Bentley otherwise. RES |
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Gloria Munday
said:
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This is saying GOd is not great enough or powerful enough for YOU and YOur marriage! "Joyner said Bentley and his new wife admit that their relationship was "premature," but say it did not begin until Bentley was convinced his first marriage could not be saved." God can save a marriage-no matter how great the problem. Iti s Bentley that was "convinced" the marriage could not be saved-NOT GOD. Todd wants to do what ever he wants. Todd's covenant wife is not GOOD enough for him. And men of God are going to council him in a second marriage? Let's ask God what He thinks of this second marriage. Unless God builds the house you will be laboring in vain. Are these same Men of God going to council the wife that is has been discarded? |
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Bondslavenchrist
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... It is a waste of time to comment on this situation. Charisma, Bentley, Joyner, nor anyone else will receive the truth, correction or accept anything except their own positive thinking false prophetic jargon. Why was Bently allowed to remarry? Why wasn't he counselled to wait and work on restoring his marriage with a REAL CHRISTIAN COUNSELOR? Since he did not do this, WHO married him; that person is as much at fault as Bentley! What about all of those prophets who spoke by the "spirit of God" and promoted the meetings and Bently when he was in Lakeland? Why are't they being taken out of ministry due to their false prophesies? There are so many injustices here, so much that smacks of the flesh being indulged instead of the CROSS being preached and Jesus Christ being followed that it would be impossible to speak on ANY of them with a decent amount of scriptural support. Besides the fact that NONE of these people will receive correction or even admit their wrongness and STILL the people follow them. Charisma is just as much at fault for promoting these so-called prophets who spoke by some spirit other than the HOLY SPIRIT when they promoted Bently and his ministry last summer. God was NOT surprised by Bentley's public fall. These "prophets" were speaking by their OWN IMAGINATIONS and NOT by the HOLY SPIRIT. What a shame that so many cannot see these things nor will Charisma EVER even begin to admit they are wrong in this matter. The end is quickly coming and many will be taken by surprise. You will NOT be taken away but WILL INDEED face the Great Tribulation. Many will fall away because of this. These false prophets are your leaders; they are blind and how much more blind are their followers? a bondslave in Christ Jesus, Dirk |
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4Christ
said:
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ARE THE COMMENTATORS HERE WITHOUT SIN??? If only the lust, greed, lies, murder, malice, and adultery in the hearts of all of the pharisees commenting here were available for the world to see. Not one of you is without sin, yet you continue to throw stones. "Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2 but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd. 4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?” 6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust. 9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?” 11 “No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.” John 8:1-11 ********** 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15 |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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Globalgospel's comment >>>Notice it says in Matt.19 "fornication" , NOT adultery |
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contend4thef8th
said:
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... Oh, come on! Do Rick, Todd, Jack and Bill really think Todd can be and should be restored to ministry despite disobeying Jesus in Matt. 5:32 and God's Word as taught by Paul in Romans 7:1-3? Todd said, "Bentley was convinced his first marriage could not be saved." Ok, I understand that. It happens but what makes him think it is okay to defy the Lord and remarry while his first wife (yes, Shonnah is still his wife as far as God is concerned in Romans 7)? So, now, Todd is a bigamist. Go figure. And then what should we say about 1 Corinthian 7:10-11? "Notice that Yahweh’s commandment is that the husband and wife stay together, and if one should leave, let them be reconciled to each other. Never do we see divorce as an option in this passage." [Yahweh's Restoration Ministry - Divorce and Remarriage.] http://www.yrm.org/divorceandre.htm Joyner said, "...... He is not pushing for ministry or anything; he is trying to get his life right." Oh, I see. Just wait. Just try keeping him out of ministry. Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert just could not keep away from it [ministry]. So what makes Rick Joyner think it's not going to happen with Todd? Doesn't anyone obey GOD anymore? Do Christian leaders such as Elders, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastor's and Teachers who disobeyed and sin should be allowed back into their rolls as if nothing had happened? Do both Charismatic and Prophetic movements think they have special dispensation from God to defy His written Word? Restoration does not necessarily mean one can exclusively reenter into their former ministry. Where is scripture support for that idea? Restoration as a Christian, one who attends church and has a 9-5 job? Sure! Why not? Those in leadership roles receive a double honor and judgment (Must give a stricter accounting of how they teach and apply the Word) because of their position as labourers over God's flock. Harsh? Yes. But we have for too long, like Pharisees, play around with the Word of God until it becomes meaningless. I do hope Todd and his 2nd wife will be restored to God and the body of Christ. Sadly, a promising gifted person has disqualified himself for future service as before. |
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dfp
said:
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RE Globalgospel on "Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage" So I guess what you are saying is that because "all things are possible" with God, therefore, the word of God is without effect, is that correct? So does "all things are possible" mean that I can marry a dog, a chimpanzee, a rhinoceros? Can I betray my children by marrying another woman, and leave my wife to tend for those children on her own? Can I abandon my covenant with my wife without penalty and be purely forgiven for it? Surely, you have not read the Scriptures, or if you have, you have read what you wanted to, only. The word of God says, "whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9). The word for "immorality" used here ("pornea" in the Greek) covers a wide variety of sins, including fornication and adultery. The word of God is not nullified in one area because of a verse in another area! You are mistaken! Because all things are possible with God (Matthew 19:26, referring to a rich man having the opportunity to enter heaven (Matthew 19:23-25) and not referring to God forgiving the adulterer who continues to commit adultery) - because all things are possible with God, yet God stands by his word to perform it. (Ezekiel 12:25) God is not a man that he should lie (Numbers 23:19). And God is not mocked (Galatians 6:7a). Whatever a man sows, this he shall also reap (Galatians 6:7b). Whether Todd Bentley, or any other person, they shall stand at the judgment for abandoning the wife of their youth, and leaving the young children to tend for themselves without a father present. |
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marianna01
said:
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TODD BENTLEY------REMARRIED THANK GOD FOR HIS GRACE AND MERCY, OTHERWISE NONE OF US WOULD MAKE IT...NOW JESUS SAID IN THE LAST DAYS THERE WOULD BE WOLVES IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING AND FROM THE ONSET I HAVE SEEN TODD BENTLEY AS ONE OF THOSE WOLVES......I DO NOT HATE THE MAN OR HAVE ANYTHING PERSONAL AGAINST HIM, BUT I REALLY FEEL THAT THERE IS NO WAY I COULD EVER SIT UNDER HIS MINISTRY OR SUPPORT ANY KIND OF MINISTRY HE MAY GET INVOLVED WITH...THERE WOULD ALWAYS BE THAT DOUBT FOR ME......IT JUST A SHAME THAT MEN WHO ARE DEACONS IN THE CHURCH ARE HELD TO A HIGHER STANDARD THAN LEADERS OR MINISTERS ARE...DEACONS CANNOT HOLD THAT POSITION IF THEY CANNOT KEEP THEIR HOUSEHOLD IN ORDER...BUT IIT SEEMS THAT IF YOU ARE A LEADER OR MINISTER OF A CHURCH OR EVEN A MINISTRY PERIOD, THAT YOU MAY ONCE AGAIN GO BACK INTO THE MINISTRY OF LEADING MEN AND WOMEN WITH THE GOSPEL......I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT !!!!!! IF A DEACON MUST BE HELD TO TO THE STANDARD OF THE ' WORD', THEN WHY NOT PERSON OR PERSONS SUCH AS BENTLEY????? |
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Blue
said:
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You Are Joking, Right?? This should be on Charisma's homepage. I received it through the newletter via email, but it's not on your homepage. I too am sickened. Why doesn't Bentley, go get a job at Walmart or something? The Church is at fault. You false prophets who went down to Florida salivating all over Bentley hoping you would get "revival" at your church, allow this charlan to continue on. Sure, they are listing their websites hoping for lots of hits and curiosity, and hopefully buyers. How is Bentley supporting himself and his previous adulteress?? On whose money?? You mindless, scripture-ignorant, scripture-ignoring people's money, that's how!! Remember the ATM's at the "revival?" And Bill Johnson?? Give me a break! He has no credibility. Go read Christian Research Institute's evaluation of him and his mummy-like practices with his children's church...trying to teach them to raise the dead, not to mention his promotions of bird feathers, gold dust and garbage tokens in his so-called services. If any salvations or healings take place, it is sheerly because God stands behind his Word. CRI has conducted tests on those feathers. Bird feathers!! Just done in January 2009! You people who chase after that garbage are foolish!! It's trash Christianity! Why should America believe any truth about Christianity now?? Can you raise the dead, really? With proof on video with doctor's documentaiion?? Don't come here from Mozambique, Mexico, or some other obscure country and make claims of raising the dead! Perform your miracles here for CNN to see and all the world!! Why hide it? Why be ashamed? Why lie?? If you've got the power, then prove it!! Can you heal the lame out of a wheel chair with proof? Can you cast out a devil with proof? Do you have ANY documentation? I am just sick about all the garbage, sensationalism and lies for money, money money!! I know someone personally who works for a large national/international minsitry. Many people who work there are not even married and are living with each other, living in sin, yet they work for this large ministry and they are not corrected or fired. The news says Christianity is no longer the major religion in America. Well do you wonder why? Here is your list of "prophets" who went down there last summer and spit and spewed all over Bentley saying his anointing would increase: KEN GRETER INTRODUCES DR. C. PETER WAGNER, who invites to the stage: Todd Bentley, Abbotsford, BC Che Ahn, Pasadena Bill Johnson, Redding John Arnott, Toronto and Stephen Strader, Florida Carl Strader, Florida Jeff Beecham, Sydney Australia Rick Joyner, South Carolina Doris Wagner, Colorado Sharon Stone, England ? Garcia, Spain Clarice Fluitt, Louisiana Richard Maiden, Arizona Mike Maiden, Arizona Joshua Fowler, Florida Barry Bouchet, Canada Go here to read some of what they said. http://www.northwestprophetic.com/2008/06/lakeland-revival-apostolic.html |
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dfp
said:
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Matthew 19:9 leaves Bentley with little wiggle room Jesus said, "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:9) It would appear to me that there is very little "wiggle room" in this passage to give Mr. Bentley a way out! He is right now, it would appear, committing adultery with his second wife! I would think that any sincere, God fearing preacher, involved in this "restoration process" would have to insist that Bentley first repent of this second marriage, and dissolve it, before he can hope to obtain any type of true restoration before God, who is wholly. It appears to me a mockery, really, unless this happens. Please, for the sake of the children, and the church at large, someone who is holy needs to step in and insist that this verse - Matthew 19:9 - applies to Bentley, as it does to all other people. |
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drawnear
said:
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You have got to be Kidding.....the PR machine begins!! Seriously?? You have got to be kidding. Restoration yes, ministry no where near that yet. How dare Morningstar request money for Todd Bentley’s ministry? You want to set up a fund to be supervised by someone of trust to help them until Todd can find an appropriate job in SC that is fine but a ministry?? Where has discernment gone?? I am not angry with Todd I am angry at the celebrity crazed church culture that turns people into what he became. Then rapes the body of Christ of much needed finances to take care of those suffering job losses and the such, of no fault of their own. Also, I think it is in bad taste to announce his restoration. Let him quietly seek God with no PR if he sincerely wants to be restored to God. He is looking toward getting on the road again….the crowds……the hype. No where does that scripture say to announce his restoration not to mention…that draws unnecessary attention to him and unnecessary pressure. You know I had hoped after the joke Lakeland was, the leaders who endorsed it would have time to reconsider their actions. Did people get healed…..yes but I believe it was despite Todd and his self focused revival message not because of it. You may be reading this and saying it is nothing but anger…well remember Peters strong response to Simon who wanted to pay to be able to impart the Holy Spirit like they did……Using Gods gifts for gain is worthy of strong words. By the way I have been in the Charasmatic/Pentecostal movement for 20+ years I am not a believer who has not experienced or recognize the reality of the power of God. I know what it is and I know when it isn't. |
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marheath
said:
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A charismatic male's point of view As a guy who attends a "charismatic" church (whatever that is), I have to say my heart is grieved when I read this article and the comments. I am grieved over the article because I believe it is premature to even discuss future ministry for Todd Bentley at this point-the facts speak for themselves. I am grieved over the comments because of the divisive of the language over charismatic vs. conservative & male vs. female. I have to say that while I believe in both extending grace and speaking truth in love, sometimes we just have to use some our God-given common sense in these matters, something I've seen charismatics & conservatives fail to do over and over in these situations. Be an honest friend to the guy-love on him/tell him the truth, and don't let him go anywhere near the ministry for an extended season (more than a few months). |
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Kia Ora
said:
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Restoration??? Restoration of Todd to any ministry position is a sick joke against the Body of Christ. That it is even contemplated shows the total lack of respect of God and lack of fear of God. It also shows contempt for other Christians as we get ridiculed for the hypocrisy of these "leaders". I can understand Joyner et als enthusiasm for this as they were the turkeys who endorsed Bentley in the first place. Their reputation for discernment went down the toilet with Todds marriage. Todds worldwide impact has been significant. Even way down here in New Zealand, we have suffered from another charlitian. Some poor Kiwis came back having swallowed the lion that the revival was reproducible, it would impact worldwide and it would be the precursor ushering in the return of the Messiah. That restoration could even be considered shows just how low the church has sunk. |
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Yasha Na!
said:
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Why are you here? It looks like all of the postings on this article are negative toward the Charismatic and Prophetic movements. The site we are on is called Charisma, if you are all so against Charismatics then what are you doing here. Looks like "religous' Christians looking for a place to stir up trouble to me. |
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jonkevjofe
said:
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... As long as people are after signs and wonders, seeking new experiences, healing, etc. through men like Todd Bentley, Benny Hinn and all these other false prophets, they will stay in business. These charismatic false prophets are in it for the money -- what will it take for people to open up their eyes and see the truth behind these false teachers/prophets/ministers??? I am so appalled at the ignorance of people -- doesn't anyone read the Bible and know that men are in the ministry because of the money? I am sorry but as far as I am concerned, all of the Prophetic and Charismatic movement leaders are false -- it's about the money -- Christians, wake up and stop being fooled by satan -- if you need healing -- pray to God and and put your faith in Jesus -- you don't have to be running after no man -- why don't these leaders visit the hospitals, why won't they pray for those without arms, legs, the quadriplegic?? Where is the annointing, where is the power, why doesn't God heal those who are really sick, without arms, truly 100% blind etc.? Because what is behind this is not God, this man as well as many others simply displayed that whatever occurred in those service WAS NOT THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT BUT DEMONIC MANIFESTATIONS -- I get so angry at how these CHARLATANS think that by writing that Bentley is in restoration and will not seek to be in ministry will make things better. I feel sorry for the wife and children and I know that someday Bentley will have to give an account for his actions before the Lord! Yes, I pray for these men and women who are in the charismatic movement that are just getting rich off the money of the ignorant christians -- I do pray that God bring them to their knees in repentance. Trust me, this is not the end of this man -- we will soon see books, etc. and of course, people will run to buy it -- oh Lord, have mercy on us -- we have sinned against you oh God!! The church has fallen away and instead of seeking you oh Lord, they seek men and experiences, have mercy on us oh Lord and open up our eyes and give us DISCERNMENT for it is something that we as your church DO NOT HAVE!!! Amen |
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emw
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Todd Bentley Remarries I think this is very sad that the leaders would condone this kind of behaviour! It seems MEN can do and get away with anything in the church! Let a WOMAN pull this and she'll be classified a JEZEBEL at the least! Clearly men still have their own set of rules in the church! Now that Todd Bentley has what he wants he is NOW ready to come forward for counseling??? How convenient. All this man wants is to get back into ministry and you people in the "prophetic" ministry want to help him "heal" so he can get right back out there and do some more damage. Todd Bentley needs to be sat down for no less than a couple of years under very close scrutiny and counseling with Godly men other than the "prophetic presbytere" so he can submit to someone that does not know him and can be objectionable, in a good way for his own good as well as the Body of Christ. Jack Hayford is the most honorable man of integrity I know that will not put up with any nonsense but will have the best interest of ALL concerned. I would pray he would come forward and oversee this whole farce of a correction! And then there is the matter of the WIFE of Todd Bentley that has been discarded and the children that have been cast aside while Todd wants to skip off into the sunset and make a new life for himself and his new wife. How about THEM??? WHO sees about THEM Rick? You're Sooooo concerned about Todd??? This is disgusting. I hardly think this is what Jesus had in mind! |
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brodon
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... I'm not sure i believe what I'm reading. This "restoration" article defies description. Just when you think the Charismatic movement and Rick Joyner has bottomed out on credibility, a story like this comes along. That's it. . . . . I'm at a loss for wordsl |
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cwilly1942
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US Citizen Someone needs to explain to Ricky that Todd can' be restored untill he stops committing adultery. Is this what we call leadership. Looks like Mr. Joyner needs some counseling. Is it any wonder church attendance is on the decline. Charles Minor |
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tomwinfield77
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ANOTHER JOKE ON PROPHETIC LEADERS Now that Todd Bentley has what he wants--another wife, instead of Shonna--he is submitting himself to the restoration process, and the pastors who oversee him are going along with it. WHAT A JOKE!!! His mentor Rick Joyner by accepting this has become just another JOKE himself!!! So have those helping overseeing Bentley's restoration--Bill Johnson and Jack Deere. This whole prophetic movement has become a JOKE!!! What a bunch of clowns!!!! |
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rpt
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"Restoration?" It appears that his first wife and children have disappeared from view, probably unable to get visas to see "dad". No explanation re financial provision, child support, spousal support, counseling, visitation, etc. Is he just going to start a new family and disavow the first family? Apparently so, while still in the ministry "business" selling "product". Where did the Lakeland offerings go? Is there any accounting? How long until he is back on the platform again; by summer? How can any of this be explained, much less justified? |
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