Template talk:Eurovision Song Contest

Young Dancers

Someone added Young Dancers so I've added the Young Musicians competition to the page.--gottago 14:19, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Song Contest

I thought that this was supposed to be for the Song Contest only? Not the kiddie contest... not the dancing contest... not the musicians' contest... but the Eurovision Song Contest.

I propose that we strip out all the other stuff and make it about the ESC only.

If anyone disagrees - then how about making a separate template, just for the actual ESC. EuroSong ^talk 08:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

In fact, now I check it, it seems that there are already existing templates for those other competitions separately. Now on their pages they have TWO template boxes: their individual competition boxes, and the generic Eurovision one! I will fix this... EuroSong ^talk 08:35, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Eurovision Dance Contest

Could this template be change to include the Eurovision Dance Contest which is set to air this Autumn? AxG ^(talk) _{(guest book)} 17:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

• I think that would be good but we should wait until we are closer to the contest and when a new article is made for the specific 2007 contest.--Gottago 18:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

• I have already created a 2007 and have been updating it page and I have included it on the template for like the 10th time, hope you do not delete it this time.--Tony0106 14:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC-7)

I absolutely disagree. The "Dance Contest" is not a part of the Song Contest - nor is it a "spin off", like the Junior version. It's simply another event by the EBU which uses the "Eurovision" name. The Dance Contest does not belong as a part of the Song Contest template. In any case, the first edition has not even been broadcast! EuroSong ^talk 23:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Extra links

I've added some links to History of the Eurovision Song Contest, Voting at the Eurovision Song Contest etc. Maybe this could be a good idea?--Eurowizion 15:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Template standardisation plans

Hello,

I have put together some plans to standardise the template structure in Eurovision articles, as a variety of different naming styles are currently used. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision#Standardising templates for details. CT Cooper · talk 15:29, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Remove cities and venues

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This entire discussion has been moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision#Navigational boxes reform (again), for wider engagement from all members of WikiProject Eurovision and other sister projects. Wes Mouse 13:54, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

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I propose we remove the host cities and venues as they are of minor importance to this template and makes it bloated and hard to use. The purpose of navigation templates is to aid navigation and while this template is useful to navigate between different contests, it is highly unlikely that it will be used to navigate between cities. The inclusion of the host cities and venues also means the template is harder to use as the links that are actually useful have to be hidden behind collapsed boxes. Väsk (talk) 14:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

You may wish to read an old RfC regarding these templates, in which covered the reform of these templates. The likelihood of your proposal being carried out is very unlikely to happen as the information on host city and venues are just as important to the rest of the information, purely because without the venue and host city then the contests themselves would not take place. Wes Mouse 14:33, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

A can of worms, apparently. I skimmed through most of that discussion, but I can't see this proposal going against its possible conclusions (if there were any). More importantly, this proposal would be in line with the spirit of WP:NAV. Again, a navbox should aid navigation, but the outcome is diminished if cram to much peripheral information into it. Sure, the host cities are of some importance to the ESC, but the ESC is usually of more fleeting importance to the individual cities, which is the important thing there. The likelihood that people will use the ESC navbox to navigate between host cities is quite small. Väsk (talk) 15:09, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

What is of minor importance to one person, may be of high importance to another. We are to be seen as accommodating everyone, regardless of our own opinion on whether specific content is of minor importance in our own eyes. To make such a claim as the likelihood that people will use the ESC navbox to navigate between host cities as being quite small, is an opinion that one cannot make based on their own matter of opinion. We are to assume that people do use the navbox to navigate between host cities - not the complete opposite. Wes Mouse 15:34, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Another thing worth remembering is that WikiProject Eurovision prefers to keep all their templates in uniformity (another words all using the same layout style). So this discussion would be better off taking place at WT:ESC for a more wider audience from members of the project for which these templates belong to. If the removal of host city/venue were to be agreed upon, then we'd need to discuss the matter of similar templates...

• Template:ABU Song Festivals (been split into Template:ABU Radio Song Festival and Template:ABU TV Song Festival)
• Template:Intervision Song Contest
• Template:OGAE Second Chance
• Template:OGAE Video Contest
• Template:Eurovision Young Dancers
• Template:Eurovision Young Musicians
• Template:Junior Eurovision Song Contest
• Template:Türkvizyon Song Contest

All of the above use the same layout style as part of the uniformity approach that Project Eurovision follows. Wes Mouse 15:49, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Whether or not the cities are of importance to the ESC doesn't matter. The host broadcasters are of more importance to the ESC than the cities, yet they are not included and this template isn't transcluded onto numerous pages about European broadcasters. What matters for navboxes is usability, and the inclusion of the cities etc is arguably a net minus in this case as it requires the actually useful links (the contests and the countries) to be hidden behind collapsed tables. When I first saw this template I didn't immediately understand how to find links to the individual contests, the extra step of clicking once more to reveal these links isn't very intuitive.

I hadn't seen all the templates you list above, but I'd argue they support my case. Very few (if any) are transcluded in city articles and I don't think anyone would argue that Template:Eurovision Young Musicians should be transcluded into articles about various major European cities. They thus fail as navboxes, as they only work if the template is transcluded into most or all articles in the navbox.

Of course there needs to be some uniformity, but the ESC project isn't an island. If you look at templates about similar events, such as the Olympics and the World Cup, their main templates do not list various host cities. (There is however a special template for Olympic host cities, which may be an acceptable compromise.) Väsk (talk) 19:57, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

If you were a member of Project Eurovision then you'd have known about all the previous debates about these templates. Like I said previously, I find it highly unlikely that your proposal would become implemented based on what had been discussed at all the previous debates. So this argument is basically running without legs. If you wish to discuss the matter further, then feel free to open a new debate via the project talk page, for a more broader consensus. Wes Mouse 21:36, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

And your argument that "very few (if any) are transcluded in city articles" is also false. You'll find that this navbox is included in every host city article. Which is also in accordance with point 2 of WP:NAVBOX which states that "the subject of the template should be mentioned in every article." As the subject is Eurovision and their host cities, and the fact they are mentioned in every article follows the correct procedure of the English Wikipedia editing guidelines. Wes Mouse 21:43, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

If you read my comment again, you'll find I referred to the templates for the various ancillary Eurovision contests you listed above which are not transcluded in many city articles, meaning the lists of host cities ought to be removed from those navboxes. No-one would seriously suggest that those navboxes should be transcluded into every article about a metropolis that has at one time hosted one of these events. Again, navboxes are for navigation, they are not meant to substitute or duplicate lists.

As for city articles that transclude the main ESC template, several do not mention the ESC at all. For good reasons, however big the contest may be, hosting it is of small lasting impact to cities with hundreds (in some cases thousands) of years of history behind them. As for those mentions I could find, many of them seemed a bit perfunctory.

Questions about different articles or templates belong on their respective talk pages. There is no previous debate about this question on this talk page and the discussion you've linked to doesn't mention it either. So I simply cannot see the consensus you claim is there. Also, you don't need to be a member of a WikiProject to suggest changes of articles that may be within the project scope and my suggestion doesn't extend beyond this template. Väsk (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Again I strongly urge that you move this entire debate over to Project Eurovision talk page, if you wish for it to receive a more broader input from other project members, seeing as this is a template created by ProjectEurovision for Eurovision-related articles. As you pointed out, you don't need to be a member of a WikiProject to suggest changes of articles. But this isn't an article, it's a template. Wes Mouse 13:41, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Well, then we might as well take the issue over to WikiProject Cities, as this template is apparently about a bunch of cities. It doesn't matter if it isn't an article, templates do not "belong" to projects either. As this template is transcluded into various articles about cities it clearly goes beyond the scope of your project. Also, WikiProjects cannot locally decide that their articles should go against general guidelines, and this template clearly doesn't follow the spirit of WP:NAVBOX. I appreciate the work you've put into these templates, but would suggest that you think a bit more about their usability and their function in the larger encyclopedia. Väsk (talk) 14:12, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Please do not remove templates like you did by removing the closure template. You action is basically refactoring other's comments and is against WP:TPNO and WP:TPO. The debate has been moved to the project talk page so that other members are aware of this discussion and can participate if they wish. The fat that you are not wanting this to happen could be seen as you objecting to their rights to take part. If you wish to make further comments and receive replies, then they will be made at the project talk page from herewith. And please try to maintain civility. I found the last sentence of your comment to be an attack on my ability to think. These navoxes have not been created by myself, so I would appreciate if you retracted that remark. WP:OWN is in regards to editor's; not project's. WP:LOCALCONSENSUS refers to participants within Project's, not project's on their own merit. Wes Mouse 14:22, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't see your closure of the debate as a comment in itself, if you interpreted this as me removing one of your comments, I'm sorry. I found your sudden closure of the debate perplexing as I hadn't experienced that before on Wikipedia. Also, your closure of the debate is against the documentation on Template:Discussion top which states it "should only be used by uninvolved editors or administrators". If you want to involve people from various WikiProjects it is perfectly permissible to post a notice on various talks pages or noticeboards pointing towards the relevant talk page. My final remark was merely a suggestion that you respond to my point of view and was not a slight against you as a person, if you interpreted it as such I am of course sorry.

However, I can see that my suggestions for changing this template weren't taken well and will not push this any further. Väsk (talk) 17:43, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Apology accepted. The closure wasn't a sudden thing as such. Whenever I've moved a debate to a more appropriate place, then I use the "Template:Discussion top" to show that a debate has been moved, so that new editors are aware, if they so wish to participate. That method also avoids having the debate taking place in multiple places; which may confuse matters further. Ultimately the proposal would bare an impact on the other templates too, which is why it would be more logical to discuss them all together at WT:ESC which is the Project that primarily deals with Eurovision-related material (including templates). There's always one person who would start to discuss each template on their individual talk pages, so merging the discussion to one easier to access talk page (in this case the project talk page) would be the logical and less-perplexing way forward. Wes Mouse 19:51, 7 July 2014 (UTC)