Dec-02-04
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| Knight13: World champion: 1840 to 1843
Wine merchant and explorer, clerk and actor, Saint-Amant was, arguably, the most representative of all married world champions. A regular at the Café de la Regence, he was often summoned home by his wife (the first known hen-pecking chess widow), who would tap on the window with her umbrella. By 1834, Saint-Amant was strong enough to lead a Paris team that defeated the Westminster chess club in a correspondence match; and in 1836, he defeated George Walker and W. Fraser in matches played in London. He was widely recognized as the finest player in France after La Bourdonnais’ death in 1840, winning a short stakes match in 1843 against Howard Staunton, +3 -2 =1.
Saint-Amant’s match loss to Staunton later in 1843 (+6 -11 =4) was followed by the total eclipse of French chess hegemony. (France would not have a home-grown grandmaster for about 150 years!) |
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Dec-03-04
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| Knight13: I am not lying. He really was a Unofficail World Champion. I swear it! |
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Dec-03-04 |
| DanielBryant: Nobody said he wasn't. |
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Dec-06-04
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| Knight13: Nobody said he was also, either. And his name is not on lots of chess books at the World Champion History section either. It only says he was a world champion in few websites. So I am not sure he was a World Champion or not. But I believe he was more than he wasn't. |
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May-18-05 |
| Poulsen: There were no world champions before Steinitz. None. And I don't care how many "wish-thinker"-web-sites, that claims otherwise. There is reason to believe, that Amant was one of the strongest players in the world in the 1840's - that's it! And personally I believe, he was as strong as - or even stronger than - Staunton. But we will never know - despite Sonas dubious calculations. |
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May-18-05 |
| soberknight: <There were no world champions before Steinitz.> Absolutely correct. It's unclear when Steinitz earned that title, too. I think 1886 is reasonable. |
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May-18-05 |
| knightspot: St. Amant was the unofficial world champion in the 1840's. The "unofficial" list goes LaBourdonnais, St. Amant, Staunton, Andersson (spelling right?) and then Steinitz. Zukertort had legitimate claims on the title since the 1870's, and hence the "official" match was organized. |
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May-18-05 |
| soberknight: Morphy's record against Anderssen, if I counted correctly, is +11 -3 =2. Even if some of those are duplicate entries, Morphy still had a plus score against Anderssen and everyone else he played. If that doesn't qualify Morphy as an unofficial world champion by your standards, I don't know what does. I don't acknowledge unofficial world champions. In my opinion, "unofficial" is synonymous with "not." |
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May-18-05 |
| knightspot: okay, Sir Soberknight - I read it in a book, lighten up:) - and nobody doubts Morphy was far and away the best player in the world in 1858 - just that he came and went so fast |
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May-18-05 |
| Poulsen: Soberknight is right - there is no such thing as an "un-official world champion". That's a meaningless title attached to pre-Steinitz-players 150+ years later - by "wish-thinkers". Certain players were - by their contemporaries - considered the strongest players around - at least in the local café. If you want a title, you could call them "Café-Kings" or perhaps even "Club-Masters". But it would perhaps be more appropiate to call some of them "Chess-Sharks", since their main feat was picking off cash from visitors to their café. Some of them made a living of it. The list of players at some point considered the strongest by their contemporaries (or by themselves!) includes: Guillaume Le Breton Deschapelles
Louis Charles Mahe De La Bourdonnais
Alexander MacDonnell
Pierre Charles Fournier de Saint Amant
Howard Staunton
Adolf Anderssen
Paul Morphy
and perhaps a few more pre-Steinitz-players.
It also includes Siegbert Tarrasch, but he never took a shot at Steinitz' title. It also includes Viswanathan Anand, but certainly not Ruslan Ponomariov, even though the latter right now is leading the former in MTel Masters (2005). I hope you see my point!
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Jun-14-05 |
| MrMrsKnight: I think it's kind of silly to try to give those players a title which they didn't officially earn.
But, I think a pretty reasonable alternative to "unofficial world champion" would be "world's strongest player" to which Saint Amant, Staunton, Morphy and Anderssen almost certainly deserve.
Consider tennis, for the last few years Roger Federer has without a doubt been the "world's strongest player", if there were some type of world championship he would've most likely won it, but since there wasn't and since he didn't, nobody calls him the "unofficial world champion" that sounds pretty silly actually, they just call him the world's strongest player. |
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Jun-14-05 |
| korger: By all reason, Saint-Amant was only a moderately strong master--I don't think he could even hit the GM norm by our standards. In contrast, there were some very strong players in his time whom we could consider GM's, had that title existed then; these are Labourdonnais, MacDonnell and an emerging von der Lasa, perhaps Petrov. The only reason why Saint-Amant enjoys a relatively high attention nowadays is because Staunton put such a big fanfare around their jejune
match. "Great battle between England and France," or how he used to put it. Great battle, my ... You just cannot compare it to the former Labourdonnais-MacDonnell encounters in terms of either quality, spirit, or style. Furthermore, the only reason why Staunton--this lofty and conceited person--has ever praised Saint-Amant was just to emphasize the importance of his (Staunton's) victory over the other.
No, Saint-Amant could have never been considered as the strongest player in the world. Nor could Staunton. But the latter had a big voice and an allegedly prestigious magazine, and he used both to celebrate himself in front of people, many of whom fell prey to his dubious claims or were just to intimidated to raise a word against his undeserved authority. If anything, we could perhaps regard Staunton as the first "Chess Tyrant," but hardly anything better than that. In my opinion the only person in history who ever demonstrated undoubtedly superior performance over anyone else who counted in the world was Paul Charles Morphy. Never before or after him did we have a player who dominated chess by such a huge margin. In spite of the lack of title at the time, Morphy does deserve to be regarded as World Champion, period. Before Morphy, maybe Philidor and Labourdonnais, but they never got the chance to prove themselves, so this remains pure speculation. But after Morphy's voluntary exile from the chess scene, I'd argue that Anderssen was the best active player; he had an excellent tournament record in the 1860's to support this claim. Morphy and Anderssen--they are my candidates for the World Championship Trophy in the pre-Steinitz era. Give the rest a break, especially to Saint-Amant and Staunton, and put them where they truly belong: some haughty roosters puffing in the barnyard of 19th century chess, who scurry into the shelter at once when the shadow of a real eagle eclipses the sun. (This last remark is for Staunton, not for Saint-Amant; at least Saint-Amant didn't make exaggerated claims of his status and didn't try to duck Morphy when Morphy challenged him for a game or two.) |
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Jan-11-06 |
| SBC: . The 1843 match between Howard Staunton and Pierre Charles-Fournié de Saint-Amant was filled with irregularities and acrimony. After the Grand Match, George Walker summed up some of the points of contention in an article published in the Chess Player's Chronicle, Feb. 1844. You can read Walker's article here: http://batgirl.atspace.com/Walker18... . |
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Jan-16-06
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| Caissanist: <korger: No, Saint-Amant could have never been considered as the strongest player in the world. Nor could Staunton. > Really? It certainly seems clear that St. Amant was the strongest player in France in the early 1840s, and Staunton the strongest in Britain. You mentioned von der Lasa--are you saying that the standard of play in Germany at that time was already clearly higher than than that of France and Britain? |
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Jan-16-06 |
| morpstau: World champion: 1840 to 1843
Wine merchant and explorer, clerk and actor, Saint-Amant was, arguably, the most representative of all married world champions. A regular at the Café de la Regence, he was often summoned home by his wife (the first known hen-pecking chess widow), who would tap on the window with her umbrella. By 1834, Saint-Amant was strong enough to lead a Paris team that defeated the Westminster chess club in a correspondence match; and in 1836, he defeated George Walker and W. Fraser in matches played in London. He was widely recognized as the finest player in France after La Bourdonnais’ death in 1840, winning a short stakes match in 1843 against Howard Staunton, +3 -2 =1. Saint-Amant’s match loss to Staunton later in 1843 (+6 -11 =4) was followed by the total eclipse of French chess hegemony. (France would not have a home-grown grandmaster for about 150 years!) In conclusion happy MLK JR> day! |
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Jan-16-06 |
| SBC: <morpstau>
For many reasons, please cite your quotes:
http://www.worldchessnetwork.com/En... |
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Apr-13-06 |
| korger: <Caissanist: Really? It certainly seems clear that St. Amant was the strongest player in France in the early 1840s,> This only goes on to show how much and how rapidly the quality of chess deteriorated in France after the demise of Labourdonnais. As early as 1842 even the chess circle of Pest-Buda wiped the Paris team off the board twice in a spectacular way (a sadly overlooked fact nowadays). <and Staunton the strongest in Britain> He was always careful to avoid those who could have beaten him. <You mentioned von der Lasa--are you saying that the standard of play in Germany at that time was already clearly higher than than that of France and Britain?> That is difficult to judge after this many years, but I would say there's a good chance of that. Think about the excellent rise of the Berliner Pleiades group in the 1840's--Bledow and the likes invented a professional approach towards chess for the first time in history, whereas France and England still remained in the coffehouse era. |
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Apr-14-06
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| whatthefat: What the lipid is going on here? Until now, this page had been kibitzed upon by 10 people, 4 of which were:
<Knight13>
<soberknight>
<knightspot>
<MrMrsKnight>
I'm getting very suspicious! |
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Sep-12-06 |
| BIDMONFA: Pierre Charles Fournier de Saint Amant PIERRE CHARLES FOURNIER DE SAINT AMANT
http://www.bidmonfa.com/saint_pierr...
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Sep-12-06
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| An Englishman: Good Evening: I think it's a bit rash to state that the greatest players of the pre-Steinitz era could not compete with today's players, or would only become "moderately strong masters." True, the state of opening and ending theory in 1840 was pretty dismal, and if you put St. Amant, Staunton, von der Lasa and Philidor in a time machine and brought them to the year 2006, they would get clobbered, but that's only because they were centuries behind us in terms of chess knowledge. Back then, 1.d4 was almost terra incognita, and God forbid they should face 1.Nf3! However, if someone was born today with their talent, and grew up with modern teaching and theory, I have no doubt they would rank among the strongest players in the world. Granted, it's true they would have a lot more competition: China, India, Russia and the United States were hardly chess powerhouses in 1840. It's rather like saying that W. G. Grace wasn't a very good cricket player simply because he competed during the earliest days of the sport. Even Brian Lara would dismiss that notion as absurd. For the benefit of the Americans in the audience, a similar analogy would be to state that 19th Century lineman Pudge Heffelfinger could not play in the NFL today because he only weighed 195 pounds. |
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Sep-12-06 |
| Poulsen: Another part of the problem is, that it is almost impossible for us to evaluate the true strenght of players before the great tournamentlife really picked up speed in 1860'es. Only a small portion of the games actually played were written downed, and games on an international level were very rare. I tend to agree with <korger> on the matter of relative strenght between players from different nations at the time. I think, that f.x. the german players in the late 1830'es and beyond are somehow overlooked by us in comparision with Staunton and St. Amant - and that especially Staunton - although undoubtly being a strong chessplayer at that time - never was put to a test, that could confirm that. His fame came IMO from his mouth - not his results. |
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Sep-12-06
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| Phony Benoni: What exactly makes an "official" world champion? Is it recognition by a governing body? Then we may not have had an "official" world champion before Botvinnik. Is it the general consensus of the chess world? Then Morphy was surely an "official" world champion. It's very significant that Steinitz and Zukertort didn't play their world championship match until after Morphy died. Steinitz certainly publicized his claims to the world championship as much as Staunton. The difference was that Steinit's claims were clearly supported by results, and accepted by the chess world as a whole. |
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Aug-14-07 |
| Akuni: <Korger: Before Morphy, maybe Philidor> I think that Philidor was the most dominant player in the history of chess, not counting the stories of invinceble Arabic Shatranj players like Al-Adli and As-Suli. Morphy was vincible, but in the 18th century the only was to play a level game with Philidor was with odds. It is true however, that Morphy had stronger opposition, just like GMs of today are less dominant due to their stronger opposition. <In my opinion the only person in history who ever demonstrated undoubtedly superior performance over anyone else who counted> What about Bobby Fischer or Steinitz or Kasparov or Capablanca or Alekhine or Karpov. Sure they were never, and could never, be as dominant as the players of yore. But that's no reason to belittle their accomplishments. But the all crushed their opposition mercilessly util they grew old, or someone newer and better came along. Fischer and Steinitz won 20 and 25 games in a row, Fischer against some of the storngest opposition available. Not even Morphy oculd say he did that, though perhaps Philidor could. |
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Sep-12-08
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| just a kid: Happy 208th birthday st.amant! |
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Oct-07-08
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| Karpova: Jeremy Spinrad on page 3 of his August 2007 edition of "New Stories about Old Chessplayers" titled <Obituaries>: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/spinr... Spinrad cites the obituary from the "New York Times", December 19, 1872: <The late tragical death of Fournier de Saint Amant brings back many interesting recollections. Once famous as the greatest chess-player of the world, and for years held to be champion of France, M. St. Amant lived to be nearly seventy-three, and
to die from being thrown from his carriage.> |
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