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TOURNAMENT STANDINGS
(SPECIAL SCORING IN EFFECT: 3 POINTS PER WIN; 1 POINT PER DRAW)
Bilbao Grand Slam Chess Final Tournament

Veselin Topalov13(+3 -1 =4)[view games]
Levon Aronian12(+3 -2 =3)[view games]
Vassily Ivanchuk11(+2 -1 =5)[view games]
Magnus Carlsen11(+3 -3 =2)[view games]
Teimour Radjabov6(+0 -2 =6)[view games]
Viswanathan Anand6(+0 -2 =6)[view games]

 page 1 of 1; games 1-25 of 25  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves Year Event/LocaleOpening
1. Anand vs Ivanchuk ½-½58 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalC89 Ruy Lopez, Marshall
2. Aronian vs Carlsen 0-151 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalA32 English, Symmetrical Variation
3. Radjabov vs Topalov ½-½49 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalC45 Scotch Game
4. Ivanchuk vs Carlsen ½-½29 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalB78 Sicilian, Dragon, Yugoslav Attack, 10.castle long
5. Topalov vs Aronian ½-½37 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD11 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav
6. Anand vs Radjabov ½-½34 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalB33 Sicilian
7. Aronian vs Anand ½-½42 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD16 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav
8. Radjabov vs Ivanchuk ½-½35 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD20 Queen's Gambit Accepted
9. Carlsen vs Topalov 0-156 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD58 Queen's Gambit Declined, Tartakower (Makagonov-Bondarevsky) Syst
10. Topalov vs Anand 1-025 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalE15 Queen's Indian
11. Carlsen vs Radjabov 1-037 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalB78 Sicilian, Dragon, Yugoslav Attack, 10.castle long
12. Aronian vs Ivanchuk 1-070 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD27 Queen's Gambit Accepted, Classical
13. Radjabov vs Aronian ½-½34 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalC45 Scotch Game
14. Anand vs Carlsen ½-½36 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalC63 Ruy Lopez, Schliemann Defense
15. Ivanchuk vs Topalov ½-½44 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalE34 Nimzo-Indian, Classical, Noa Variation
16. Topalov vs Radjabov ½-½73 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalA00 Uncommon Opening
17. Ivanchuk vs Anand ½-½32 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD18 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav, Dutch
18. Carlsen vs Aronian 1-036 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalD47 Queen's Gambit Declined Semi-Slav
19. Aronian vs Topalov 1-058 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalE36 Nimzo-Indian, Classical
20. Radjabov vs Anand ½-½29 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalB46 Sicilian, Taimanov Variation
21. Carlsen vs Ivanchuk 0-132 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalA00 Uncommon Opening
22. Topalov vs Carlsen 1-048 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalB78 Sicilian, Dragon, Yugoslav Attack, 10.castle long
23. Anand vs Aronian 0-175 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalC45 Scotch Game
24. Ivanchuk vs Radjabov 1-049 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalB45 Sicilian, Taimanov
25. Anand vs Topalov 0 2008 Bilbao Grand Slam Chess FinalA00 Uncommon Opening
 page 1 of 1; games 1-25 of 25  PGN Download
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 89 OF 89 ·  Later Kibitzing >
Sep-11-08   Whitehat1963: Also interesting. I'd like to see that method's effect on four or five tournaments as well.
Sep-11-08   PinkPanther: I've never gotten what was so special about Kosteniuk. To me, she looks like a Russian peasant. Rather homely.
Sep-11-08   borenslaw: In certain sports I believe you can draw some historical comparisons; in chess despite the recording of games I think it is extremely difficult.Computers, databases, the access to training tools, the number of players, make it very difficult to compare eras.Capa and Alekhine dominated their era; they probably would be great today: but, would they dominate?We will never know but I doubt it.
Sep-11-08   vanytchouck: I've found a funny kind of analogy between the scoring system and the different geometries (nothing scientific just fun) :

For the scoring system, the axiom wich could be associated with the "the sum of the angles of a triangle = 180°" axiom is "1 win + 1 loss = 2 draws".

It can also be seen as the scoring system version of dx²+d y² = dy²

So the 1-1/2-0 is our euclidian system, notice that they both came as the most natural and was seen as the only valuable.

The elliptic one would be the scoring wich use the "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" axiom as for example, 3-2-0 system (you love solidity, and any lost is seen as a shameful failure).

And the hyperbolic one would be the one wich use the "2 draws > 1 win + 1 loss" (our "beloved" 3-1-0 ;-)).

But there is a point wich i would be more serious:

I don't think it's relevant to say "the 3-1-0 system is bad because with this system, +4;=1;-5 is better than +1;=9".

In fact, "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" and "+4;=1;-5 is better than +1;=9" are "equivalent" (the number of losses allowed has to be define).

It's just like saying "this geometry sucks because the pythagorean theorem does not hold in it!".

So i think that the only debate is wether the "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" axiom is better than the "1 win + 1 loss > 2 draws" one or than the "1 win + 1 loss = 2 draws".

And i maintain that this is only axioms as nobody has ever proved (specially on this site) that "1 win + 1 loss = 2 draws".

Sep-11-08   ILikeFruits: what...
me...
worry...
geronimo...
Sep-11-08   drnooo: a draw is a draw is a , right, draw. It is the logical outcome of a well played game. Especially when the mistakes of both sides cancel each other out. If you dont like draws let the g m s play computers. Then you will see some nice slaughters, and and hand wringing and bloody losses. But so long as humans play each other, let the draws continue in the good old fashioned scoring system: any other is just hoking up the game.
Sep-11-08   drnooo: If you want an incentive for wins, if there is a tie for first let the one with the most wins get an extra thousand or so for the most of them. But you don't need to resort to some nutty scoring system: its called extra cash.
Sep-11-08   Whitehat1963: <drnooo> I'm curious, based on your statement that "a draw is a draw is a ...", what you think of these "well-played" games:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...

Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <Landzhev

1. The standings kind of look the same as they would have been if the traditional scoring system was used.>

True, as of now. However, it could be different, and if we continue these tournamnets, inevitably we will get a tournament wherein the 3 - 1 - 0 scoring will yield a standing different than the traditional one.

If the 3 - 1 - 0 scoring is used to determine the apportioning of prize money in traditional scoring system context, then I have no objection.

<2. Ivanchuk gets in to time trouble in every game and plays some of the best chess here. Just goes to show that there are more important things to be considered here, such as consistency, form, preparation etc...>

Right again. However, it's not true with all players. We have already seen Anand playing weakly around move 40 and after.

What I mean is that in general, with the given time control and no increment after move 40, players would tend to commit more errors around move 40 and after.

Most of the arguments have already been posted in this corner. I think you are actually trying to convince me to change my mind! (",)

Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <suenteus po 147: There are several tournaments that, for one reason or another, are listed as "the strongest of all time." Here are a few:>

Game Collection: Vienna 1882

Game Collection: Linares 1993

Game Collection: WCC Index [Zurich 1953] Game Collection: Karlsbad 1929

Game Collection: San Sebastian 1911

Game Collection: Las Palmas 1996

Also

Game Collection: St. Petersburg 1895-96

Game Collection: St Petersburg 1914

Note that St Petersburg 1914 actually consisted of two tournaments, with a first qualifying stage and a finals stage. Both stages were incredibly strong. If you got into the final stage, you would have the pleasure of playing Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Tarrasch, and Marshall two times each in a double round robin.

Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <14 Dog Knight: Capablanca probably wouldn't be champion today...he'd be too busy chasing after Alexandra Kosteniuk>

Nice joke. Women were Capa's weakness. Capa was also women's weakness. He was like the Rudolf Valentino of chess. My uncle who was a a child in the 30s still remembers stories about Capa, and this chess genius was also monstrously handsome and attractive. When he walked into a roomful of people, everyone would soon be looking at him, even not knowing him. Ladies would swoon over him and flocked to see him playing in tournaments.

I have stated this belief already. Capablanca in 1919 was playing nearly errorless chess (except for one gross oversight, in a game he still won). He won all of his classical games except for one. He had not yet tasted what it felt like to be World Champion and was hungrily trying to win every game he ever played to prove to the world he deserved a Title shot. This 1919 Capa updated in opening theory IMO would have beaten just about anybody in a match, with the possible exception of the 1971 version of Fischer.

A chess genius who could give all his colleagues 1 minute to 5 odds in blitz games and still crush them all, all the time; who played nearly errorless computer-like chess; and hungry for the Title? That was Capablanca in 1919, an invincible chess machine.

Sep-11-08   Whitehat1963: <1 minute to 5 odds in blitz games and still crush them all>

I think this was actually money odds: you win $5, I win $1. Nowhere did he specifically mention time odds.

Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <Whitehat1963: <1 minute to 5 odds in blitz games and still crush them all>

I think this was actually money odds: you win $5, I win $1. Nowhere did he specifically mention time odds.>

Thanks for the correction. In any case, Capa all throughout his career was the only player who ALWAYS won all blitz and rapid competitions he entered. Blitz is blitz, but if you play a thousand blitz games, and still win most of them convincingly, the statistics of such s feat would show that you are indeed a very strong chess player. Did Capa ever lose a single blitz game in his life anyway?

Moreover, in blitz opening prep practically becomes useless. The players play largely according to their natural abilities. Even a Capa who was not updated in opening theory but instantaneously saw most possibilities even in complex middlegames and could spot a winning maneuver in almost any endgame where one existed would probably smash everyone in a blitz tournament today.

I have read Edward Lasker saying that when he and others sat down to play Capa in his prime, there already was the feeling they would lose! They must have felt like they were playing Rybka or Fritz.

Sep-11-08   blueofnoon: Please do not compare Kramnik with Karpov who, has won more than 160 major tournaments and should be considered as strong candidate for the best tournament player ever.
Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <drnooo: Often the historical perspective at this site is appaling. How can anyone say that the greatest tourneys of all time were recent when at the very least those of the early 1900s were at least their equal. Capa, Alekhine, Lasker, Rubenstein, Nimzovich, my god and yikes,they could have handled any five ever, anytime anywhere, in their prime . Lets get real. And amazingly they were all playing each other in tourneys. Even Tal who had had more than his share of looking at the moderns called Lasker the greatest of them all, and Capa and Alekhine have to be on anyones top ten list.>

Personally I regard the finals of St Petersburg 1914 wherein Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Tarrasch, and Marshall played a double round robin as arguably the strongest tournament ever. If Rubinstein instead of Marshall qualified, then you would actually have a dream tournament of Lasker, Capablanca, Alekhine, Tarrasch, and Rubinstein playing a double round robin, and to my mind, there would be no question that this would be the strongest tournament ever.

Where else is there a tournament where you get Lasker, Capa, and Alekhine all at or near their prime playing a double round robin?

My first chessbooks were written by Lasker and Capablanca, (and Nimzovitch), so I have a very healthy appreciation of how monstrously strong these two were. They probably set the gold standard for playing nearly errorless chess in the middlgame and endgame. In the recent super GM tournaments alone, Lasker and Capa would have gotten a few extra points from our present super GMs playing bad endgames.

The only real advantage our present day players have over these guys is the opening. But that would quickly disappear if they got updated in opening theory. Once past the opening minefields and prep, any chess player would have to play the game as Lasker and Capa did in the 1910s, by chess intuition and precise calculations, and in this aspect, few if any could match them.

And if we were to talk about blitz and rapids who could match Capa? He was smashing everyone from Lasker at the beginning of his international career to Reuben Fine at the end of his career (and Fine was the best blitz player in the USA in the 1930s and 40s, aside from being a world contender). I think it was Lasker who remarked, after seeing the young Capa devouring everybody in blitz,

"Young man, it is remarkable that you never seem to commit a mistake."

I would appreciate it if some one would post an incident where Capa lost in a blitz game.

Sep-11-08   Bobsterman3000: <Visayan> So, endgame theory has not improved (in general) since 1914?

I am thinking that your average GM or master today also knows more endgame theory than your "average GM" of 1914.

Sep-11-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  madlydeeply: I think we should score a point for a win or a loss, and no points for a draw. that would put Carlsen in first place with six points. Topalov would be in third place with his four cowardly draws. Also Van Wely would win every tournament he played in this year HA HA!
Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <Bobsterman3000: <Visayan> So, endgame theory has not improved (in general) since 1914?>

What in endgame theory has been significantly improved since 1914?

Sep-11-08   blueofnoon: Hmm.

I am a big fan of Capablanca and Rubinstein, and yes, their endgame skills were legendary.

But to say the endgame theory has not evolved since then is... questionable to say the least.

Please see Dvoretsky's endgame manual or Fundamental Chess Endings and you'll realize how many endgame techniques were discovered after world war II.

Also, you need to take it into account that in good old days they had ajournments to analyze the endgame positions whereas today's GMs have to find everything OTB after tiring middlegame struggle, which explains number of mistakes.

Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <blueofnoon>

Could Dvoretsky's books significantly improve the the way Lasker and Capa (and Rubinstein) were playing their endgames? Or did he take examples from these players' endgames?

Sep-11-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  madlydeeply: If Capablanca grew up in the Soviet Union he would have been way better than Spassky at his prime. If Fischer had access to Fritz in 1914 he would have had a reasonable shot against Lasker. If Rubinstein wasn't crazy as a loon, but was rather reincarnated as an idiot savant in 1943 he would have been way better than Spassky not just that lame 12.5-8.5 like that idiot savant Fischer. If Madonna had 150 more I.Q. points she would have beaten Abraham lincoln at chess if they were both transported to the year 2450 on the starship enterprise. And not to mention crack...which world champion would have been the best while smoking crack? I say Marshall and Tal since they both were smokers. But I think Botvinnik with his Iron Will would have been a good crack smokin' champion as well.
Sep-11-08   Whitehat1963: <madlydeeply> a well-deserved name!
Sep-11-08   blueofnoon: <visayanbraindoctor> Yes, for example, according to Dvoretsky many of techniques regarding building fortress against Queen using rook and pawns were found by the Soviet era. He also cites the example of Rubinstein's misplay in R vs B ending due to lack of knowledge. By the way Dvoretsky's manual is a superb work, I would recommend it to anyone.

I would like to stop here because this is (probably) not a right place to discuss the evolution of endgame theory.

Anyay, my comments are by no means an attempt to degrade old masters such as Capa, Rubinstein. It is beyond doubt their contribution to endgame theory is massive, and they were many years ahead of their time.

But to say or imply today's super GMs are "inferor" to them in endgames, forgetting that time control is much more severe today than their time is, a bit unfair i suppose.

Sep-11-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  lopium: <madlydeeply: I think we should score a point for a win or a loss, and no points for a draw. that would put Carlsen in first place with six points. Topalov would be in third place with his four cowardly draws. Also Van Wely would win every tournament he played in this year HA HA!> Would be also nice if the one with more wins wins the tournament (regardless of draws and losses) and also, in another tournament system : the one with less losses. In each case this put you to push for a win.
Sep-11-08   visayanbraindoctor: <blueofnoon: But to say or imply today's super GMs are "inferor" to them in endgames, forgetting that time control is much more severe today than their time is, a bit unfair i suppose.>

It is no shame to be 'inferior' to Lasker and Capablanca in the endgame. IMO, they did play the endgame better than any living player, with Karpov and Kramnik arguably their only equals. Even Kramnik who plays the endgame probably best among the top active GMs sounded a bit embarrassed when an interviewer started to compare his endgame play to Capablanca. I doubt if there is any player today who could go forth and honestly announce he plays the endgame better than Capa.

As for time controls, well its back to Danailov rules bashing! No time increment after move 40 is absurd!

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